compared oxy/acet tank rental to purchase

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I called my LWS this morning to compare what I am paying for my rental oxy/acet tanks against purchase and I have a few interesting observations:I currently rent a 282cf oxygen and a 130-180cf (med) acet tank that I use for OA welding and cutting.  I pay $62/year for each tank.Arcet doesn't sell tanks over 80cf oxygen, 55cf acetylene which rules out buying tanks from them for cutting anything thicker than foil - have to stick to their lease to get the big onesNorthern Tool/Gas Pony sells tanks similar to what I have125cf Oxygen $289145cf Acet $349This means that I would recover my cost in 5 years if I bought the Gas Pony tanks, seems like a long time to me and I would have a smaller Oxygen tank.Refill costs are about the same, I can refill the big Arcet rentals for $35 oxygen, $74 acet.  Same price to refill the smaller Gas Pony tanks through Northern Tool.The bottom line - the rental tanks from Arcet make more sense for me.Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:That seems like a good rental price.Last time I checked with the LWS i think it was $200 / 3 years.  At least in my mind it was about 3 years to break even.The big advantage with renting is they deliver the big bottles - they handle all the hydro etc.The disadvantage with renting is: the bottles are bigger, if you need your welder to be portable - maybe move over something gravel driveway.  And of course, over the long run you might be paying more.For me, from a hobby point of view, I have some O/A bottles that have been sitting for the better part of 5 years.  On the flip side, I go through enough argon to make it worth while.  I have 5 bottles of gas that I own.  All 80s (the biggest I could easily buy _AND_ easily exchange)  2 Argon (because I always run out late at night), C10, C25, and O2.  I will probably swap the C10 for another C25 and mix my own C10.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:I don't use a lot of gas, but I rely on OA for cutting, observing the 1/7 (or esp. the 1/10) draw limit makes a 55cf acet. tank useless.One nice thing about big tanks is I have fewer trips to the LWS.  (I get my filler metal via the internet for OA and tractor supply for smaw electrodes).Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:I've owned my own cylinders since the '80s and would never even consider renting. Why rent? Buy cylinders off craigslist (making sure no company names on the neck ring or stamped in), swap them when you need to, paying only for the gas, when you're done with them, sell them for what you paid or more. You only pay for the gas. To me paying rent on O/A cylinders is a sucker move. So is buying cylinders from the LWS. There are better ways ..
Reply:Same here, I bought used oxy/acet tanks off of craigslist which also came with smith regulators, a smith torch, and a cart.  I paid $100 for the entire set-up.  Find some used tanks with no LWS names stamped on them and save some cash.
Reply:Originally Posted by metalmagpieI've owned my own cylinders since the '80s and would never even consider renting. Why rent? Buy cylinders off craigslist (making sure no company names on the neck ring or stamped in), swap them when you need to, paying only for the gas, when you're done with them, sell them for what you paid or more. You only pay for the gas. To me paying rent on O/A cylinders is a sucker move. So is buying cylinders from the LWS. There are better ways ..
Reply:I agree with DSW; the rent/own choice can be dominated by national rules (US/Canada), changing times and policies of the local welding supply stores.  In some areas a few independents may still exist and anything goes... all kinds of cylinder swaps, low gas prices and local fills.  However, this is very local dependent.Here in Ottawa Canada, Linde (BOC), Praxair and AirLiquid are the only gas suppliers- having bought everyone else out.  Their prices and policies are very similar - no owner-purchase tanks over 80cf oxygen or 65cf acetylene.  None of the three local gas suppliers fill cylinders, they just swap'em out.You might also want to consider who will be around in a few years to fill the large, owner cylinders.e.g. What may be possible today might not be possible in 5 years.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:i pay $89 per tank  a year for rent on my 3 tanks..ox acet and argon..  my only option is to buy tanks and drive to god knows where to swap them out.. my local lws wont touch anything they dont rent....
Reply:The whole cylinder rental thing is a joke! I own my own big cylinders and I get them exchanged at a local family run supplier. I can't see any reason to charge rent. Amerigas, will give you a 100# propane cylinder for an $85.00 deposit and the cost of the fill. When, if ever, you have no use for it, you get your full deposit back. THAT, is fair. If the LWS' would charge a deposit, and heck, even an extra $25.00 once every five years per cylinder to cover hydro, it would be fair. But I will NOT pay rent for a cylinder. Heck, I have three K oxy's, one T 75/25 and one T 100% AR. That's about $300.00 a year in just rental. If the place I deal with closes, I will be forced to purchase smaller cylinders."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:This looks like the appropriate place.  I want to upgrade my O/A tanks.  Right now, I have a set of smaller tanks.  The Acetylene tank is a 40 CF tank.  The Oxygen tank is about the same size.  If my recollection is right, I think they said it was a "B" tank.  I went through that in about a month.  I am using it for cutting and gas welding equipment around my property and also for my metal shaping hobby.  I would like to upgrade.Airgas told me they would take my small tanks, but not credit me for them (Yeah right).  Tank rental was $75 ea per year plus fill ($45 for acetylene/ $20 for Oxygen).  A independent welding shop told me they would give me two tanks, with a $50 deposit required for each tank, fill for acetylene was $50 and Oxygen $20 and no annual rental fee.  they suggested either selling the small tanks or keeping as spares.The independent company sounds like the way to go (As a scuba diver, I know that keeping up the tanks can get expensive).  Am I missing something here?  What size tanks would you recommend?
Reply:I just bought a 60 lb Chemaine tank filled for $165 ish filled. If your just cutting switch off of acetylene. A big oxygen bottle filled is $247.00Our outfit fills bottles but they still exchange, they test bottles first and fill bottles in 15-20 at a time so they won't fill your individual bottle.Last edited by fredschrom; 01-09-2012 at 11:19 PM.
Reply:A big oxygen bottle filled is $247.00
Reply:nope the 250 sq ft, the high pressures which you can buy but are holly pain to get filled ( but hold twice as much ) are over $300, I choked also ( still choking BTW ). I am picking up a new one on Wednesday I will post with reciept in hand.
Reply:Really depends on location.For several years I was able to get any of my "owned bottles" from 40-330 cu. ft. filled at my LWS.  Then he sold out to one of the two major welding suppliers in the area.The new company (per stated policy) will not fill "owner bottles" larger than 150 cu. ft.  I have a couple 330's that I own, and they have "made an exception" for me since I lease several (8) large bottles from them.I have no problem exchanging my owner bottles of less than 150 (got 6 125's that I use for portable work and seldom used gases).  The only problem with the smaller bottles is the cost of gas per cu. ft.  I'll elaborate later.Mixing my own gas mixes and the tig I do, means that Argon is my most "used" gas.  I go thru at least a 330 of Argon about every three weeks.  The lease on my large bottles is $62/yr/bottle.  Sounds like a lot, but not really when you consider the cost of gas.Today I picked up an 80 of Argon in an "owner tank".  This is a bottle I use for portable work and don't fill it that often.  Cost to fill was $38.50 or .4813/cu ft of Argon.  I also exchanged a 330 of Argon today.  Cost for that refil was $82. or .2485/cu ft of Argon.In the larger bottles, my Argon costs me exactly half what it does in smaller owner bottles.Doesn't take long to offset the cost of leasing the larger bottles.  Especially if they will continue to "slip in" my larger owner bottles as a favor to a good customer.Welding gasses are sort of a license to steal, but when you only have a couple choices about suppliers, you're sorta at their mercy.  There's a lot of methane put out on the boards, but I haven't figured a way to pull Argon out of the air yet.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by hp246  A independent welding shop told me they would give me two tanks, with a $50 deposit required for each tank, fill for acetylene was $50 and Oxygen $20 and no annual rental fee.  they suggested either selling the small tanks or keeping as spares.The independent company sounds like the way to go (As a scuba diver, I know that keeping up the tanks can get expensive).  Am I missing something here?  What size tanks would you recommend?
Reply:Another option would be look for someone selling a big tank that has an owner ring of a LWS near you. A blank one would be better. I see lots of bad info here and at the local welding supply places on large tanks with the owners ring. They use to sell big tanks to people but stopped so they are legal to own without a contract. I hear it was a government thing. There are a lot of owner tanks out there. If you take it to that air supplier, they will fill it or exchange it if they have been around for a while. The bad thing is that if you move, you will be screwed so dont pay a lot for them. You dont need an account or anything. I bought a very old 282 oxy on craigslist for $100 that was out of test. took it to my LWS (Michigan Gas) and they gave me a new tank with their seal. I know I would be tied to them but I like them anyways. Also they and Air Gas are the only two in my area that will take a blank ring tank this size and Airgas is much more expensive. I paid 18 for the test and 18 for the oxy fill. Just saying there are other options. I am looking for a large Argon now. I have a bunch of 125 tanks as well but like the larger ones since you dont have to get them filled as often and its a lot cheaper. 125 oxy cost me 14 and 282 cost 18. I dont want to run all over the place depending on who owns the tank. I either look for blank ones or Michigan Gas.If you have an Airgas tank, you can walk in and exchange it at airgas. My buddy just did it. They dont ask for your account or anything.Last edited by mikeb9550; 01-10-2012 at 07:18 AM.
Reply:I guess the methane point must refer to not all the stuff in this threads correlates to experienced reality.I don't know what scuba tanks cost but carbon dioxide fire extinguishers are pretty pricey.The price you can get on account can vary drasticly,  If you find someone in accounts payable and accounts receivable at a place that has like 15 leases, willing to share confidential information, it is likely half per cubic feet what you pay.  I would think the no lease per cubic foot would have to be the higest unless it is some sort of cash deal.Lease generally means account which means credit check and liability of like $500 if you loose one of he big tanks.  Even if it is a cash account  with a deposit I bet you are liable for the tank, perhaps If it is stolen your insurance comes in.  Those cash deposits get touchy when places get merged.  If I wait on hold and talk to the main office they still have records but strangely it doesn't (didn't to be honest they said they weren't done with the merge) show up in the computer system at the branches.Like mentioned earlier  It isn't too hard to get more actual tanks in circulation than you have leases.  Now with the internet it is possible to aquire the flexible high pressure hoses to hook tanks to manifolds which the LWS most likely won't sell you.  These enable tank to tank transfer,  Of course at your own risk.  Works for me for argon and oxygen.  Those pony prices in the first post seem high I am not current on purchacing that sort of stuff but I think an 80 argon cost like $130 empty for an essentially new one (empty price) perhaps 5 years ago but time flies.  And yes I had to pay probably a little more than half for the gas in it than the gas in the 336 one I lease.
Reply:I can't beleive how much they are charging you guys to rent.  Wielder Welding (my LWS) charged me $90 for 9 years TOTAL for my 250 CF tank.I researched rental costs when i bought my TIG and was prepared for sticker shock.  When I asked about rental prices, he said $90 for 9 years.  I said, "that's total for all 9 years, right"  Just joking with him, expecting him to say it was $90/year.  Nope, it's $90 for all nine years.  That made leasing a no-brainer for me.  Paying $0.80/month is not a sucker move in my book.caspian
Reply:Originally Posted by caspianI can't beleive how much they are charging you guys to rent.  Wielder Welding (my LWS) charged me $90 for 9 years TOTAL for my 250 CF tank.I researched rental costs when i bought my TIG and was prepared for sticker shock.  When I asked about rental prices, he said $90 for 9 years.  I said, "that's total for all 9 years, right"  Just joking with him, expecting him to say it was $90/year.  Nope, it's $90 for all nine years.  That made leasing a no-brainer for me.  Paying $0.80/month is not a sucker move in my book.caspian
Reply:Guys,Thank you for all the good information.  I am going to try to find some owner tanks locally, if not, I'm going to go with the Indy shop.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIThere's a lot of methane put out on the boards, but I haven't figured a way to pull Argon out of the air yet.
Reply:I got my 125cf bottle on a "lifetime lease" from the LWS recently.  I haven't filled it yet (first fill was included) but I think the refill is about $60.  The lease is $150, one time.  There is a hydro fee every 5 yrs of ~$15, but that's it otherwise.  That is basically like buying the cylinder, for all practical purposes, except I can't take it elsewhere for fills.  To me that is a non-issue as long as these guys stick around.  They do it on bigger size bottles too, but the next step is 330, I think, and that is just way to big for my needs.  I think they said they would refill owned cylinders of 125cf and up, but would not exchange them.  They won't sell cylinders bigger than 80.-DaveXMT304 with: 22A Feeder, or HF251 Hi Freq DC TIG air cooled
Reply:Actually, there's another issue involving bottles that no one has brought up.According to the stated policy of my LWS, you cannot OWN an acetylene bottle of sufficient capacity to run a medium size cutting torch, much less a decent rosebud.People will say (and to some extent I agree) that you need to make the switch to propane for cutting/heating.  That's fine, but realize that using propane also increases the oxygen consumed for a given task.  That 125cu ft "owner bottle" of oxygen isn't going to last long.I don't use that much ox/ace for cutting (the plasma has reduced that considerably), but I do have a need for a rosebud (used for removing seized propellers).  Therefore, I lease a 300+ cu ft bottle of acetylene.  May not have it filled but every couple of years, but I still have to pay the lease.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:[QUOTE=gwiley;471863Arcet doesn't sell tanks over 80cf oxygen, 55cf acetylene which rules out buying tanks from them for cutting anything thicker than foil - have to stick to their lease to get the big onesThe bottom line - the rental tanks from Arcet make more sense for me.[/QUOTE]you could manifold a few small acet tanks together..payoff is a differnt story..
Reply:If you have buddies with contracts, running privately obtained cylinders through them is easy enough.I lurk Craigslist and have gotten a good variety of OA and cylinders over the years for very little. If the price is trivial I'll just keep adding them and swapping them out one way or another.You can also have multiple LWS for refills depending on what you accumulate.You might also want to consider who will be around in a few years to fill the large, owner cylinders.e.g. What may be possible today might not be possible in 5 years.I own several of my 330's and a bunch of smaller tanks too & my lws just swaps them out with new cylinders no problem, well the only problem is, even when I first gave them a blank one here and there they gave me back one of there own branded ones on exchange, but I still own it even though there name is on it. I never tried with anyone else but them to fill it though. they will not sell me any 330's but it's fine if I already own themmiller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:I wonder if you took one of the tanks with their company name on it to another supply store to be filled if they would fill it? My understanding is you may be SOL, no refill. I don't know.
Reply:I wouldn't be surprised if that would be a problem but I've been dealing with them for over 15 years and probably won't even bother trying anyone else so I wasn't too bothered by it.miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:I'm sure it differs a lot but doesn't it work like this in a lot of places.  You drive up close to the loading dock and put your empty on the concrete.  You go inside select the misc trinkets you want and go to the counter and identify yourself.  They make up a slip and you either write them a check or charge it, sign somewhere on a piece of paper.  You go out to the loading dock (with your color of the multi layer thing you signed) and the employee rolls your tank away on a corner and rolls out another one.  It is not unusual to get a collar ring which clearly isn't that company it might even say US ARMY.  They do have their own color coding system but likely have merged with something else that didn't have an exact or even close match.  I kind of think I have seen some bar code stickers lately but no scanner when swapping tanks or perhaps more correctly cylinders.   I would imagine if you had them pick up and swap out at your site the above wouldn't apply.  About getting your same thing refilled while you wait?  Maybe if it was a liquid oxygen container and your welding shop supplies the local hospitals which send special trucks over.  Can you own a liquid oxygen container of the general type used for cutting torches at scrap yards?Fran
Reply:Originally Posted by turbocad6I wouldn't be surprised if that would be a problem but I've been dealing with them for over 15 years and probably won't even bother trying anyone else so I wasn't too bothered by it.
Reply:Originally Posted by fredschromnope the 250 sq ft, the high pressures which you can buy but are holly pain to get filled ( but hold twice as much ) are over $300, I choked also ( still choking BTW ). I am picking up a new one on Wednesday I will post with reciept in hand.
Reply:"For a 250 oxygen fill"Not a fill,  buying the bottle filled I will be picking up a couple of bottles today I will double check that price.
Reply:Okay just got home With reciept in hand:60 lb chematane cylinder 124.99 add a Hazmat fee of $4.00 to itCost to fill above 51.00Equivilant above to Acetylene 3 bottles approx172 cu ft Stargon ( C25 mix )Bottle 214.49Fill 36.00Oxygen:249 cu ft bottle $249.00Fill 15.00
Reply:Why chematane?  Why didn't you just get propane? Originally Posted by SundownIIIDon't get me wrong.  They are just as ill informed about politics as they are about welding, they just post more on that subject.
Reply:local air gas quoted me $185 for a 5 year lease and 1/2 off first fillup.  this is for oxygen.  not sure of the cu ft, but it was the ones that are about 5' tall.  any where from $40 to $50 to get filled normally.
Reply:Which airgas?  East midwest?  Just one tank not adding another to an existing account of many?  When they send you a bill in the mail it has a part of the country after the word or words airgas.  I am sure there are folks who could take a picture of their lease bill and it would be different.  Me included if I could find it.
Reply:Originally Posted by jmtebbensWhy chematane?  Why didn't you just get propane?
Reply:You guys are nuts, I rent (10) 250 size oxy, and (4) 300 size acet. I pay 75 to fill an acet and 12.50 to fill an oxy. All from Arcet. Tank rental is 26 cents a day each. I know we get some sort of discount because we cosume 6 oxy and 2 acet every week. But dang, some of you are paying out the A$$!!!PS: I just switched to arcet last week from airgas, the price at arcet was 1/2 the cost. Below is a snip of my quote... Attached ImagesYou have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else. Albert Einstein
Reply:" I know we get some sort of discount because we cosume 6 oxy and 2 acet every week. But dang, some of you are paying out the A$$!!! "Question is why are you still on Acet?  2 bottles a week 4 weeks a month $600.00 1 ea. 100 lb chemtane equals 7 bottles of ACET so $525.00 vrs $85.00 buy two bottles ( $260 ), save about $200.00 the first month buying your bottles and about $500.00 a month every month thereafter.There is a little oxy saving but not lot: I didn't figure that in. The other part not figured in is labor to change out 7 bottles, it has value also.http://www.chemtane2.com/sales-tools...-vs-chemtane-2I also think that rentals work out well in a fixed shop, but a traveling welder going out of state I don't see how that would work, can you exchange a rental cylinder to another supplier? I think not.The other concern I would have is theft off of the truck ( just happened this week here, Bottles, Welder, and compressor stripped off a truck) What happens then? You pay full price for the Bottle (s) ?????? I don't know but I suspect it would get dirty, and I don't know if my insurance would cover a rented bottle ( I don't know they wouldn't either, key words here are I DONT KNOW ).I think your oxy costs is very good, as I get a pretty decent break and I am $15.00 a bottle to fill. I think I might check a couple of the other suppliers, I did shop bottle costs and bought where the bottles were cheapest.I was going to put another oxy and argon bottle in my shop, not for the truck I think I will check the rental on those.
Reply:Originally Posted by fran...k.Which airgas?  East midwest?  Just one tank not adding another to an existing account of many?  When they send you a bill in the mail it has a part of the country after the word or words airgas.  I am sure there are folks who could take a picture of their lease bill and it would be different.  Me included if I could find it.
Reply:I don't know if my insurance would cover a rented bottle ( I don't know they wouldn't either, key words here are I DONT KNOW ).
Reply:interesting i can walk into my local praxair and swap out my 330s owned bottles oxy or acetylene or mixed gas no problems no lease i own them I have bottles all the way down to 80cfeven recently i traded in one of the 330 acetylene that i owned for 4 145cf bottles just paid for the filli get back blank neck rings almost all the timeand never get charged for a hydro even if i bring in a out of hydro bottleThe same was with air gas but they wanted more for the fillsLast edited by WeldorWes; 04-24-2012 at 08:30 PM.Miller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldingWookieinteresting i can walk into my local praxair and swap out my 330s owned bottles oxy or acetylene or mixed gas no problems no lease i own them I have bottles all the way down to 80cfeven recently i traded in one of the 330 acetylene that i owned for 4 145cf bottles just paid for the filli get back blank neck rings almost all the timeand never get charged for a hydro even if i bring in a out of hydro bottleThe same was with air gas but they wanted more for the fills
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-manIs that the one in Costa Mesa? I would think their policies would be nation wide. My Praxair only leases the big cylinders.