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I'm a little disappointed with my self. I recently put up a craigslist ad offering services for some tig welding. Sometime later i get a call from a furniture company asking for a quote on making some simple rectangular furniture bases made from 1"x1" square tubing. All of these bases are custom one offs that vary slightly from base to base. Some end up with a wood top with a glass insert and some just end up with a cushion on top for a end of the bed seat type thing. First they asked for a quote to build one of these things. the first one was 7' (L) x2' (w) x3' (H). I estimated that this would take me 1.5hrs($75) to complete although I knew it would take longer I was trying to give them a cost that would still keep me competitive. I asked who would be providing the metal? they said it was up to me to source the metal. So I went down to IMS and they quote me like 16.75/10'length of 20ga 1"x1". So since it was on me to source, drive, pick up, and use my fuel I added an extra 20% to the materials and charged $21/each. So with the steel for the frame the mounting tabs required for the wood top and $7/ea casters they added on at the last min, the material cost $115 then I added on an extra $10 to the $75 labor to attach the casters making the total job cost to the customer $200 out the door.Keep in mind that cutting alone takes about 1.5hrs of my time on the band saw then fitting it up tak-ing then readjusting due to the weld shrinkage, then grinding the weld smooth, then cleaning all the finger prints and oils off them. All in all the actual time it takes to make on of these is around 3.5-4 hrs. Im not opposed to taking longer to perform a job then what I quote and that is why I chose the high-ish $/hr to soak up some of those costs but how can you make return customers without feeling like im working for free. After that they had me make another smaller base which was similar than the first but they wanted me to fully cap up the bottom legs in change for casters. this one came out to $150 materials+ labor When the customer picked them up from my house I was at my main job and my wife was the one to interact with the customer and apparently he was very pleased with the quality and mentioned that their old welder was just a flake and that's why they were looking for a new guy and it seems like they really liked my work. After that they asked for a quote on another one and I gave them one that I thought was fair, but they never called back. How do you stay competitive without underbidding yourself to a point where your only earning peanuts after everything is said and done.Do you guys up-sale materials that you provide the customer?Do you always stick to the price you quoted even though it took longer than expected or they added something additional?If you quote a price and you stick to that price for the first one but feel that what your making isn't enough how do you tell the customer the next time without losing that business?These are things I would like to know how they are typically handled by the pros....
Reply:Everyone asks those questions starting out. I don't think it's a bad idea to be cheap in the beginning. Build your confidence up that you are getting business, and slowly raise your prices. I ALWAYS add at least 30% on to materials. Sometimes double material costs. Just depends on how much it is really. And yes, I always honor a quote unless I talk with the customer beforehand and let them know it's going to cost a little more. I would just tell them when they pick it up it took a little longer than you thought so you may have to re evaluate the price on the next order. Just be honest. It's not always all about price, some people pay more for better customer service. You'll also build up loyalty (hopefully) and get customers that stop quoting things out to others and just have you do it. I probably would have charged about as much as you did, but my material costs would have been about a quarter what you paid. And a table takes me about 2 hours to make.One "trick" that I LOVE to use is asking if there's a price they're trying to stay under, and make up some BS reason why you want to know, like it helps you source materials easier, or something. If they want a full table like the one you did under $50 but then you don't need to waste your time quoting, just say sorry no way. There have been many times where they've told me the best quote they've received was say $450 (I probably would have quoted ~$200) so I come back and say $400 or $350 to make sure I seal the deal. Quoting his half the game! It's a learning curve for sure. Like I said, start off quoting relatively low just to make sure you're getting some business and slowly raise the prices. From what you've said, sounds like you're at a good starting point.John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Econdron, sound advice, never price yourself out just to get the work, take it from experience. Clifton
Reply:Nice work, man. And thanks for asking these questions...I've been wondering a lot of the same things myself, and have gotten some great advice here lately as well. cheers.Millermatic 211 Miller Blue Fire 140@swiftwelding on Instagram
Reply:Nice work.
Reply:Remembering that i do this all day every day, i would turn that out in less than an hour, for a lower price. I have all the materials in the shop right now, including the casters. I get better pricing on steel (buying 24' sticks helps, buying in bulk helps even more). Try to find a different steel supplier. Try to get all you materials in one shot. Get a faster saw (dry cut). Get a steel table you can jig it up on for quicker set up. Then you will become more competitive.
Reply:Bidding jobs was always a tough deal for me too. Always honor your bid, that's just good business. But if you loose money just tell them that and adjust the price for the next one accordingly. If they change the job after it's started, then you can adjust the price tho. There are some companies that know what things cost to make and will pay it, others are always looking for the cheapest. I lost a lot of money over the years trying to chase bids that were losers. Sometimes you have to make a few to know what they will cost because frequently your time drops off dramatically after you've done a few. If after a few are done you're still losing money, you're better off to loose the job than to work for a loss. Also, don't give away too much info on what it costs you to do the job. I did a lot of work for a few years for a company called CMP, they built the racks for Honda, Arctic Cat, and Polaris 4-wheelers, and also had their own line of attachments. One of the things I did for them was tig together their loading ramps that they sold. I made a couple minor changes to the jig and my welder, and dramatically cut the time it took me to build them. When I made the mistake of telling them how many I could do an hour they cut the rate 40% which made it unprofitable. That's one time my big mouth cost me a ton of money.Yeah, I know, but it'll be ok!Lincoln Square wave 255Miller Vintage mig30a spoolgunThermal Dynamics Pacmaster 100xl plasmaSmith mc torchEllis 1600 band saw
Reply:I used to have a tree service. When I bid a job that is what I did it for. I never lost money but I once only made $5 profit for the day after paying everyone but I have also made $500 for 1 hrs work. It all balances out. I usually made between $300-500 a day take home. I think your better off somewhere in the middle if not higher on what you charge there is always going to be people that do things for nothing. If your going to do something at cost it might as well be for yourself.
Reply:I am curious as to why you are dissapointed with your self? Make 10 more of 'em and sell 'em for yourself. Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by tapwelderMake 10 more of 'em and sell 'em for yourself.
Reply:I am not fond on CL. I did that once and all I got was flyby night tire kickers. Sounds like they were just in a bind at the moment and used you. Until they got their steady welder the meds needed. I got a call from a company(not CL add) and the person said they were outsourcing the tables that hold their machines. He said that he would supply the special machined feet inserts. He said he was a welder but not doing it anymore. I quoted just like I would any other job. Bump up the materails and calculate my time and I would have to build a JIG too. He said my materials were too high in my estimate. I told him then you deliver the materails to me. He then said, "oh no that costs me money". "Exactly" I told him. Bye bye.Not going to work for free. I would rather have some fun with the Wife. As others have said, you win some you loose some. But you can control this game yourself.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:^That is very true of craigslist, tire kickers everywhere, but where else can I promote myself? There is a lot of good information here thanks guys? I was feeling that I need to adjust my price based on what I thought the whole table was worth. Really how much would someone pay for a table such as these when completed in a store? I cant see myself or anyone else paying more than $350 for tables like these so if im charging $150-200 just for the bases and they still need to finish them and add a top of some sort, I can see how that could really hinder any profit to be made on their side. I could see that if I had more practice with setup on these and a maybe a faster saw that I probably knock them out in about 2hrs each which would make it worth my while, but I think my biggest problem is the material costs. I only own a small pick up truck so getting the longer pieces is almost out of the question, and when your just starting out buying in bulk is difficult. I will shop around a bit more to see if I can find a better price. I was thinking about making a few to see if I could sell them (minus the casters) but I just don't know where I would sell them other than craigslist or something I don't really have the time to go down to the swap meet and try to sell them. I have also thought about calling them back to see what happened and where I stand among other bids but I don't want to seem too desperate. It would have been a cool little after work gig to just make a few a week but oh well you win some you lose some. I just gotta stay at it...Last edited by TTnicksocal; 05-14-2014 at 11:46 AM.
Reply:You will always make more money sellign direct than selling to some middle man that resells.but then you have to learn how to make a website and advtertise and market which is a whole other skill set.We make a niche product, portable trade show booths and we are always busy. I've had several people wanting to sell them for me, or be a middle man, none of them actually worked out.find a product you can sell direct would be my advice and make it a niche product that has a high price and lower volume, unless you want to start hiring and managing a work force. too.
Reply:There are numerous things to look at....some of which you can control. Forgive me if you already understand these things.......just trying to help out.1. Material handling - a LOT of time is spent on the physical manipulation of the material, even before you put a tool to it. Sure, for small jobs, a minute here or there wasted isn't a lot, by comparison, but if you have a TON of small jobs, its time (money) saved, and thats what we're after. When you pull material from your vehicle, and you're ready to get at the job, take that material right to the saw. If you set it on the ground, and have to move it again, you're wasting time. 2. Cutting - If you have a little bandsaw, you can spend a lot of time cutting. You simply cannot compete with the big guys with huge saws, forklifts, material storage, etc. You mentioned 1.5 hours to cut the material for the table you first showed. Eight miter cuts, and seven square cuts. If you have a little 7x12 bandsaw like I do, it should take less than a minute for each cut, if its .065 wall material. Sure, this doesn't account for moving the material, measuring, etc....but you can stack the material and make multiple cuts at once. While the saw is running, you can work on another process, like deburring, weld prep, layout, or setting up your machine. On the miter joints, you can save time by not cutting them square first.....only to follow up with the miter cut. Just flip and rotate the piece(s) for the next miter. We can do that with light material. I know some of these techniques are more suited to production runs, but some of it applies to one-off jobs.2. Quoting - Perform time studies of your work. Time every aspect, material handling, cutting, deburring, weld prep, layout, welding, grinding, straightening, etc. Not only will this help you better quote jobs, it'll show you what needs improvement, if you can charge more, or if you should charge less (to be competitive). This affects scheduling too. If you have lots of work lined up, its imperative that you have a realistic idea of how much time jobs take. This is where you compete with ANY fabrication shop out there. You don't make money quoting, but you do save money / time, if you can whip out quotes with the quickness. Maybe your customer submits bids to multiple outfits. Respond faster, and that may translate into work. It shows that you're on your game. If you improve these non-fabrication skills, you'll have MORE time to do what I hope you love doing.....and thats fabrication / welding.3. Customer relations. Make the project seamless for them. They order, you deliver. That. Is. Key. Give them NO reason to look elsewhere. Your good work allows them to make more money. On a related note, they need to understand that you can't work for peanuts. Its not "fair". If they just shop around for the cheapest fu$k out there, their business could suffer. As a business, they should understand that if they don't pay you a fair wage, then you're not gonna be around to do the same type of work for them down the road. Thats an inconvenience for them - a money loser - a time waster.4. Keep a clean, organized shop. Time spent looking for stuff is time spent losing money, and this is something you don't want to be good at. Clean up when you're done with that job, so you're ready for the next thing that rolls through the door that you want to keep open. The old adage "Be Prepared" comes to mind.p.s. Your work looks good!-AaronJet 17.5" Drill Press1942 South Bend 16x84 Lathe1980s Miller 320A / BP --- 2013 Power Mig 2562012 Jet 7x12 Horizontal BandsawVictor O/A Setup
Reply:You may not have been underbid. Every time the economy slows down we get lots of requests for quotes. Busy work for purchasers. Sometimes we don't get one in ten. But often no one else got them either. Your customer may have been quoting their customer who declined to place the order yet.---Meltedmetal
Reply:By the way there are many creative ways to advertise your products , service and skills. You just need to search to find what works. All take time to show success or failure. Craigslist is free... Doesnt hurt being on there. Just learn to screen leads. Clist has been profitable for you. Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk
Reply:If you want to make some real money you have to spend some first. I work in a company where we have alot of smaller jobs similar to your. When you have the right tools to do the job you save on time. You need at least a good and precise saw, because spending 1,5 hours to cut the material is not going to work. In that time the furniture base should be finished. Also I would choose mig proces for the job. Alot faster and just as nice, sure with good machine. And try to get yourself a big table so you can clamp the tubing on it and just weld it.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderYou will always make more money sellign direct than selling to some middle man that resells.but then you have to learn how to make a website and advtertise and market which is a whole other skill set.We make a niche product, portable trade show booths and we are always busy. I've had several people wanting to sell them for me, or be a middle man, none of them actually worked out.find a product you can sell direct would be my advice and make it a niche product that has a high price and lower volume, unless you want to start hiring and managing a work force. too.
Reply:They also may have been only out to buy only a couple of pieces, and used the hope of more work to get the price down.
Reply:Originally Posted by StandinThey also may have been only out to buy only a couple of pieces, and used the hope of more work to get the price down.
Reply:I been doing some side work for this guy goin on my second season. I just met his brother a couple weeks ago, old retired welder. worked along side him here and there. He reminds me of a 6'6'' tall prospector, long beard, no teeth, looks like he aint eaten in a year, hardly understand what he is saying, but sure likes to talk a lot. Really nice guy and his welding and fitting skills were impressive. Anyway, at the end of the day we went into the bosses house and his wife said "want your cheque? what is it $30 an hour?" The brother heard this and soon as she walked away he said "you gotta jack that up man!" with his eyes wide as saucers! then he said, "that's why welders are so busy, cause we don't charge enough!" Put things into perspective for me. I don't need to bring anything along when I work for him. But I bring along my own gear and my own hand tools, including grinders. It is easier for me to find what I need when I want it. Its a good gig, I save him money and I learn a lot. I often think about going straight contracting. I don't want the headache of chasing down people for money. It is so costly and people don't realize a 10lb box of rod is 40 bucks plus the trouble it can be to go stock up on all that stuff. Another retired welder I met told me that it will come, all you need is one good customer to make it all come together.One thing ill comment on your frames tho, they are really nice, but a trick is to start turning the seam of the tubing so its down on the bottoms, that way it don't show through when they get painted. If you are stuck with the band saw, you can cut more than one piece of stock at a time to speed things up. Also try a diablo flap disk, they are awesome. look up the video on you tube to see what I mean.Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:The cost to be in business is:Cost = Materials + Labor + Overhead + ProfitMaterials = the stuff you need to complete the work that stays with the customer. Some folks mark up materials to cover the labor and overhead related to purchasing mateirals and getting them to the work site. This can have tax implications, so make sure you understand these before you go down this path.Labor = what it costs to hire you, and anybody else to do the work. (notice this is not profit) remember this number might include the cost of workman's compensation, unemployment benefits, and taxes that you owe the government. As long as you're a one man show, figuring this part out is much simpler.Overhead = what it costs for you to be in business(vehicles, space, uniforms, welding helmets, utilities, advertising, insurance, etc, etc,etc.) Make a list of everything you spend that's related to your business daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, annually. You can figure out what the hourly cost is by dividing this total by the number of hours you work each year. Be honest. The typical man-year is 2080 hours for an employee. For the self employed it can be double this number.Profit = The money you keep after paying for Labor, Materials, and Overhead costs of being in business. You need to look at what it costs you to live. Food, shelter, utilities, transportation, insurance, retirement savings(don't forget this one), and lastly entertainment. What is your time worth? If you're doing this as your primary income this is pretty easy to figure out. If you're moonlighting, then it's trickier. It's easy to short change yourself if you're not dependent on welding to feed, shelter, and cloth yourself.You have to get a handle on this or you'll loose your shirt, and work hard doing it. You also need to get a feel for what the market(your customers) will bear in terms of cost. Gauging what your competitors charge is a crude way to do this. Afterall, their ideas for how much profit is reasonable, and their overhead costs, will likely not be the same as yours. You can price yourself out of the market or cut your own throat by simply charging what the competition does.If the hourly cost for you to work in this trade, in your area, is more than the market will bear, then you need to accept less profit, lower your costs(overhead or profit most likely), or go into another line of work. It's that simple. If your hourly rate is less than the market will bear, then celebrate!, and raise the amount you charge per hour to your customers.Lastly, give some thought to what your skill level is and what's fair and reasonable to charge. Building yard art is not as valuable as working on structural steel or high pressure piping. Low risk, low reward(usually), high risk, high costs, high reward. If you're just learning and can't tackle the most demanding work, don't try and don't charge for it.Check out Amazon.com and look for books on running a contracting business. Most are geared towards, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and general contractors. But the principles are the same. You'll find some good advice on insurance, tax law, and accounting that will keep you from getting into deep trouble along the way.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:12:02