Welding anodized aluminum

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Ok guys lets hear some input on how your welding anodized an fitting. I am looking to weld a anodized fitting to a 6061 t651 1/4 plate. Any suggetions?  I really would like to remove the anodize but cant find any articles on how to. Thanks guysHypertherm Powermax45Miller auto 140 migMiller Econotig Watercooledwith wp24w TorchLincoln Power255XTNew(Lincoln V205 ac/dc)Miller Elite Helmet
Reply:Diluted Muriatic Acid if you want it completely clean.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Easy Off oven cleaner used to work, havent tried it in years so it may be more "friendly" now but years ago worked great. Otherwise scotchbrite works fine. "Anybody can talk $h!t behind a monitor, I let the quality of my work speak for itself"Lincoln Square Wave 255 and 355 Tig Lincoln 255 Power-Mig w/ spool gun Koike 5 x 10 CNC plasma Hyd-Mech DM-10 bandsaw Ineco QB-76 NC tube bender
Reply:Nice sharp lanthanated tungsten, 195 amps and weld it. Zap it hard a few times and add some filler. No prep needed other than wiping down with acetone.
Reply:Easy off oven cleaner in the yellow spray can. Just used some the other day. Completely takes off the anodizing and leaves raw clean aluminum in a few minutes.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Originally Posted by rmz632Ok guys lets hear some input on how your welding anodized an fitting. I am looking to weld a anodized fitting to a 6061 t651 1/4 plate. Any suggetions?  I really would like to remove the anodize but cant find any articles on how to. Thanks guys
Reply:Google "bump welding" ... SundownIII has some post on it. I think he sets up the machine to dump full heat into the weld as soon as he hits the pedal ... seems like the flogging action moves the aluminum oxide anodizing out of the way, allowing the heat to get through to wet out the puddle, if I understand what he's describing.
Reply:Seriously, just use easy off oven cleaner... You can even mask it off with electrical tape and only remove the anodizing from certain areas.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:You do have to get it off, otherwise it is like welding under a bubble.  everything above or just wire brush it off will work.
Reply:I just weld them on no need to remove .
Reply:Originally Posted by jakesportingI just weld them on no need to remove .
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverGot a pic of how that turns out?
Reply:Its a secret I got from a friend but he uses DRAINO  and mixes a paste and paints it on the area to be welded...let it sit for a bit and rinse it off.......put the stuff thats left down the drain for a TUNE UP.........Done......  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Originally Posted by B_CIts a secret I got from a friend but he uses DRAINO  and mixes a paste and paints it on the area to be welded...let it sit for a bit and rinse it off.......put the stuff thats left down the drain for a TUNE UP.........Done......
Reply:Originally Posted by pslwelderYour really over-thinking this, just weld it.
Reply:i guess when you have to be right...well you just have to be right.
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverThink so?I'm not talking about thin transparent anodizing, I'm talking about thick hard anodizing, almost always with dye. Anodizing is an oxide that melts at over 3 times the temperature of the aluminum, it's not going to help the welding process. A/C cleaning action probably won't compleltey clean it either, just mix in lots of contaminants.I wouldn't "just weld" stuff like this
Reply:Overall this has been an informative thread. Never thought of the Draino.Now I can add more options to my stripping routine.Personally I like a clean surface, so I strip it. Whether it be chemical or mechanical. Acids, Alkalines, grinders, dremels, scotchbrite disks, whatever it takes. Most of my work is mil-spec, so I just get in the habit.Burned anodize looks like ****.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Seems to be a lot of confusion on here as to the process....the typical anodized aluminum AN fitting is easy to clean off with a lye based product and weld as it has only a microscopic amount of oxide in place to hold the dye coloring they are NOT hard anodized. Such as the fuel tank pslwelder shows above (and a nice job on the tank BTW) however those fittings are also specifically manufactured as "weld in bungs" or "weld in fillers" so they are not hard anodized since they are meant for welding into a tank. Hard anodizing adds a thick layer of oxide to the material that is difficult to weld, I have seen several instances where even a 200+ amp bump wouldn't break through ( a custom paintball gun that we tried to bump weld...no way no how was that happening without mechanical removal of the oxide layer, then no sweat) I can see where the arguments are coming from and find that the light "for appearance only" anodizing is pretty easy to weld by a number of methods and I will stick to the "hard anodizing" being a bi$&h to weld without mechanical removal. "Anybody can talk $h!t behind a monitor, I let the quality of my work speak for itself"Lincoln Square Wave 255 and 355 Tig Lincoln 255 Power-Mig w/ spool gun Koike 5 x 10 CNC plasma Hyd-Mech DM-10 bandsaw Ineco QB-76 NC tube bender
Reply:To further explain here is the typical oxide layer produced by the different processes: note the Hard Anodizing is anywhere from 1.5 times as thick to 200 times as thick depending on the range. These are expressed in microns of thickness. Type I AConventional coatings produced from chromic acid bath Thickness 0.5µ-7.6µ (microns)  Type I BLow voltage chromic acid anodizing (20 volts)Used for 7xxx series alloys  0.5µ-7.6µ Type IIConventional coatings produced from sulfuric acid bath 1.8µ-25.4µ Type IIIHard coat (Uniform anodic coatings) 12.7µ-115µ •Class 1 ◦Non dyed  •Class 2 •Dyed "Anybody can talk $h!t behind a monitor, I let the quality of my work speak for itself"Lincoln Square Wave 255 and 355 Tig Lincoln 255 Power-Mig w/ spool gun Koike 5 x 10 CNC plasma Hyd-Mech DM-10 bandsaw Ineco QB-76 NC tube bender
Reply:Originally Posted by CoupebuilderSeems to be a lot of confusion on here as to the process....the typical anodized aluminum AN fitting is easy to clean off with a lye based product and weld as it has only a microscopic amount of oxide in place to hold the dye coloring they are NOT hard anodized. Such as the fuel tank pslwelder shows above (and a nice job on the tank BTW) however those fittings are also specifically manufactured as "weld in bungs" or "weld in fillers" so they are not hard anodized since they are meant for welding into a tank. Hard anodizing adds a thick layer of oxide to the material that is difficult to weld, I have seen several instances where even a 200+ amp bump wouldn't break through ( a custom paintball gun that we tried to bump weld...no way no how was that happening without mechanical removal of the oxide layer, then no sweat) I can see where the arguments are coming from and find that the light "for appearance only" anodizing is pretty easy to weld by a number of methods and I will stick to the "hard anodizing" being a bi$&h to weld without mechanical removal.
Reply:Not for the faint of heart or the chemically inexperienced, but here's a reasonable guide to DIY anodizing. It's all about keeping the aluminum clean and keeping your fingers out of the tub.http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize.html
Reply:Caswell plating has nice kitsMiller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Originally Posted by pslwelder... but don't tell me you cant do it with good results, Because I do it all the time. If your not completely competent in your ability to do so, that's fine, But don't look down on those that can.
Reply:Your comment makes you sound like you'd take pride in "being able" to weld over rust as well... this "ability" doesn't impress anyone, sorry.MikeGyver, if you lived here in WNY's rust belt you would find that "being able" to weld over rust is a necessary and highly valuable skill when repairing our fine automobiles lmao "Anybody can talk $h!t behind a monitor, I let the quality of my work speak for itself"Lincoln Square Wave 255 and 355 Tig Lincoln 255 Power-Mig w/ spool gun Koike 5 x 10 CNC plasma Hyd-Mech DM-10 bandsaw Ineco QB-76 NC tube benderNever been able to get good results tig welding any anodized parts.......So easy to strip it off why would you take a chance of ruining a customers part?  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Originally Posted by B_CNever been able to get good results tig welding any anodized parts.......So easy to strip it off why would you take a chance of ruining a customers part?
Reply:Originally Posted by usmcruz+1Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Reply:Now that the different grades of anodizing have been pointed out/explained, those interested in "welding anodized aluminum" should do a search on "bump welding anodized aluminum".Process was developed and refined by Pipewelders about 30 years ago.  Technique is used by nearly every marine fabricator out there.  Miller did a very good writeup on the process that appeared in Metalforming magazine several years ago.I've discussed/explained this process about a dozen times and not going to do it again.I'll give one hint.   A simple on/off button is used in liew of a pedal.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:The only BUMP  I know about is the one you get when you hit your head......LOL  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:When I weld anodized I use a pulse method with a thumb roller or foot pedal. Set my heat pretty high depending on material thickness. As soon and the hi freq. hits floor it, add rod then back off with the heat and repeat. This I've found gives you the clean look of stacked dimes without the anodized messing with the weld to much, and it's still strong. Try it out.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hoosier_WelderWhen I weld anodized I use a pulse method with a thumb roller or foot pedal. Set my heat pretty high depending on material thickness. As soon and the hi freq. hits floor it, add rod then back off with the heat and repeat. This I've found gives you the clean look of stacked dimes without the anodized messing with the weld to much, and it's still strong. Try it out.
Reply:shovelon,Close, but nope.Fingertip on/off button is used.  Pedal or slider (finger control) is too slow to react and achieve the instantaneous arc force needed to blast the oxide layer.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIshovelon,Close, but nope.Fingertip on/off button is used.  Pedal or slider (finger control) is too slow to react and achieve the instantaneous arc force needed to blast the oxide layer.
Reply:That's it.  All the variable amp remote controls have a built in "ramp up" effect.The on/off button does not.  When hit you get your "dialed in" amps (as set on the machine) right NOW.Bump welding aluminum is also done at a considerably higher amp setting (190-210) than that which would be used for "normal" aluminum.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:On my machine you have to get past the pre flow time before you can use Panal amps......(No delay)  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:BC,Most (if not all) the machines that one would use for bump welding (your Lincoln included) have an adjustable pre flow.  Generally between .2-.4 of a second.  This is no problem because the arc has not initiated.  It's that "high energy" arc force that blasts the oxides (moreso than the DC+ normally associated with the AC cleaning effect).Bump welding technique was developed because it's just not economically feasible to prep (remove the anodizing) from every weld joint on say a 9 Step tower on a 65' Sportfisherman.  Also no way to "dip" the tower post welding.  Most marine fabricators use silver rustoleum to paint the beads (to reduce oxidation) after welding.In cases where the welder is dealing with a few fittings (say bungs on a tank), he's probably better off chemically removing the oxide layer.  The problem here is as the base material gets thinner and thinner (say on a tank), it won't take the heat of bump welding.  The wall thickness of anodized pipe/tube used in marine fabrication is thicker and therefore more able to take the heat.  As you reduce your amps to allow for the thinner material, you lose much of the effect of the "high energy" instantaneous arc.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Got it.......I'll leave that BUMP  stuff to you......Hahahahaha....  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:rmz632 - Thank MikeGyver for touched on why aluminum is welded A/C, and Coupebuilder for delineating on the types of Anodization [aluminum-oxide], and all of the secret recipes for cleansing. This is how I explain all of the afore-mentioned in lay terms.  There are 3 types of aluminum-oxide.  Ambient, anodized and anodized hard-coat.  Ambient iswhat is generated on virgin aluminum exposed to the elements under normal conditions - the gray power that rubs off.  Anodized: clear, colored [dyed], and hard-coat, are grown [juiced] in a process akin to electroplating.  Hard-coat is anodization taken to refusal; at this stage [thickness] the coat is 3/mill to 5/mill thick and has has a green/black color.  At this thickness it has insulating properties,and is used to coat aluminum electrodes in plasma-vacuums for the production ofwafers which become computer chips.  The only hard-coat anyone is likely to everysee is Calphalon aluminum cook-ware in a cooking store [note the color].  Cleaning: All of the suggested cleaning solvent only remove the abraded dust on the surfaceand cannot remove any anodization.  If looks do not matter, grinding is the quick clean.  Virtually everything hard-coated is a finished product, and would be discarded upon failure; welding isn't going to fix it, so you're never going to see it.Welding: This is why Aluminum is generally welded AC, as mentioned by pslwelder "just weld it".  Properly done, the pulse of the AC current scavenges the Aluminum-Oxide [anodizing]in advance of the weld-puddle.  The trick is to watch the A/O surface burn off in advance of the puddle so you can add fill.  It's abundantly clear that pslwelder has accomplished this.   Opus
Reply:Thanks Opus, I do believe your right but don't discount what sundown is explaining. I work with anodized aluminum all the time but I also have new technology  machines and a never ending supply of information to read, where as he was doing this stuff back when there was no tricks unless you developed it and the equipment was far less superior. So, much like he said, the problem is that regardless of the material thickness, you still need high amp ark force to push the sh!t aside prior  to feeding in filler, thus making it difficult on thinner aluminum. At this point you rely on the on off of the torch to control heat and travel speed and not the machine setting, as it will remain 200 to 230 amps. Anodized welding throws all other methods out the window, basically you cant adjust your machine to gauge thickness as you normally would, you must adjust yourself and the machine remains the same. I have a feeling that in a few years, the newer inverter type machines will allow a monkey to do it with great success. I know mine has made me lazy. I think the biggest tip when working with thin stuff is a razor sharp tungsten to keep the ark focused allowing you to cut through the coating, and a steep torch angle to help clean in front of you.     Just for ha ha's, does anyone feed the wire behind the cup when working with this stuff? I've tried and seems to work fairly well, but it's tough to adapt to. I think it works because your feeding into the clean side of the puddle rather than the sh!t your trying to push away. Let me know..... Thanks Originally Posted by OPUS FERROrmz632 - Thank MikeGyver for touched on why aluminum is welded A/C, and Coupebuilder for delineating on the types of Anodization [aluminum-oxide], and all of the secret recipes for cleansing. This is how I explain all of the afore-mentioned in lay terms.  There are 3 types of aluminum-oxide.  Ambient, anodized and anodized hard-coat.  Ambient iswhat is generated on virgin aluminum exposed to the elements under normal conditions - the gray power that rubs off.  Anodized: clear, colored [dyed], and hard-coat, are grown [juiced] in a process akin to electroplating.  Hard-coat is anodization taken to refusal; at this stage [thickness] the coat is 3/mill to 5/mill thick and has has a green/black color.  At this thickness it has insulating properties,and is used to coat aluminum electrodes in plasma-vacuums for the production ofwafers which become computer chips.  The only hard-coat anyone is likely to everysee is Calphalon aluminum cook-ware in a cooking store [note the color].  Cleaning: All of the suggested cleaning solvent only remove the abraded dust on the surfaceand cannot remove any anodization.  If looks do not matter, grinding is the quick clean.  Virtually everything hard-coated is a finished product, and would be discarded upon failure; welding isn't going to fix it, so you're never going to see it.Welding: This is why Aluminum is generally welded AC, as mentioned by pslwelder "just weld it".  Properly done, the pulse of the AC current scavenges the Aluminum-Oxide [anodizing]in advance of the weld-puddle.  The trick is to watch the A/O surface burn off in advance of the puddle so you can add fill.  It's abundantly clear that pslwelder has accomplished this.   Opus
Reply:Yes, I do feed behind the cup on occasion. Far superior in some cases. When I encounter difficulty I switch to backfeeding to see if there is improvement. I believe profiency in backfeeding should be required at some level. I work with every one of my tig operators until they have mastered backfeeding. In fact some approved proceedures have backfeeding mapped into them. I have nary an inspector or engineer question me on it to date.One thing I do have trouble with is welding ambidextrously. Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIThat's it.  All the variable amp remote controls have a built in "ramp up" effect.The on/off button does not.  When hit you get your "dialed in" amps (as set on the machine) right NOW.Bump welding aluminum is also done at a considerably higher amp setting (190-210) than that which would be used for "normal" aluminum.
Reply:shovelon  -  Never having welded in an 'Aluminum Shop' is one of my top five professional mistakes.  Aluminum technique is my weakest link, so I avoid it.   What do you build or repair, and what type of joints would call for 'backfeeding'.   I have all of the tools, and understand steel TIG; if you could post conditions and examples, I hope only to catch up.     Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROshovelon  -  Never having welded in an 'Aluminum Shop' is one of my top five professional mistakes.  Aluminum technique is my weakest link, so I avoid it.   What do you build or repair, and what type of joints would call for 'backfeeding'.   I have all of the tools, and understand steel TIG; if you could post conditions and examples, I hope only to catch up.     Opus
Reply:Most of these joints are backfed.These rosette welds are backfed on the return.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Nice job! Do you find production work boring?
Reply:Wow I did not expect such a turn out. Thanks. Will post pics once finishedHypertherm Powermax45Miller auto 140 migMiller Econotig Watercooledwith wp24w TorchLincoln Power255XTNew(Lincoln V205 ac/dc)Miller Elite Helmet
Reply:Interesting, so you're pushing the torch as normal but feeding from the opposite side as usual?Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Yes, production work can get boring.No, I am verticle or pulling the torch a bit. Nornally I push from right to left, and add filler from the left. The other way is pulling from left to right, but stiil adding filler from left.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.