Boy scout merit badge - stick welding setup

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The boy scouts have a merit badge for welding.I haven't seen the project yet, but my understand is this.They will be stick and mig welding 14 gauge mild steel, in the flat.I'm a little nervous about 14 gauge stick welding (don't think I ever use stick on less that 1/8") and I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for a setup.I'm thinking about using the maxstar because it has the dig option and I can run it at lower amps (penetration is not necessary - and not the point of the excercise).  6013, 3/32 at 40-50 Amps DCEP..  With DIG turned up, I don't think it will stick.  With good tacks at both ends, I don't think there is danger of burn through.  What do you think?  I'll have some 14 gauge to practice on next week. What does Home Depot stock? 5/64?  1/16?  is a 1/16 too small?The LWS carries Hobart (pretty sure they have 3/32 in stock).  Home Depot carries Lincoln.  Any preferences?What would you say if one welder is just an AC only buzz box?Target audience are kids up to say age 12-15.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:The Maxstar is fine and so is any buzz box (on thicker than 14ga steel).   Basically the boys are just going to make sparks fly on some metal, I'd assume.   I think your selection of 6013's is perfect, especially for the thin sheet metal.  Too bad you couldn't use thicker steel however.  I don't know about 14ga and a boy scout learning to weld.  In fact, a standard AC buzz box might give them problems with such thin sheet metal.  Try to use DC- with 6013 and thin steel if you have equipment that can run DC (Maxstar).Home Depot carries the 3/32" 6013's.  It really doesn't matter between Lincoln or Hobart electrodes for what you want to do. Just my thoughts.  You can only use the equipment you have available.Ps.... After looking at your equipment list, I think you'd be able to figure out a set up for those boys, based on your welding experience. Last edited by SuperArc; 06-25-2012 at 04:51 AM.Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:This its the requirements that they have to do but i tell them to use 1/4 inch steel its easier for the kids to work with.March, 2012Requirements for the Welding merit badge:Do the following:Explain to your counselor the hazards you are most likely to encounter while welding, and what you should do to anticipate, help prevent, mitigate, or lessen these hazards.Show that you know first aid for, and the prevention of, injuries or illnesses that could occur while welding, including electrical shock, eye injuries, burns, fume inhalation, dizziness, skin irritation, and exposure to hazardous chemicals, including filler metals and welding gases.Do the following:With your counselor, discuss general safety precautions and Material Safety Data Sheets related to welding. Explain the importance of the MSDS.Describe the appropriate safety gear and clothing that must be worn when welding. Then, present yourself properly dressed for welding—in protective equipment, clothing, and footwear.Explain and demonstrate the proper care and storage of welding equipment, tools, and protective clothing and footwear.Explain the terms welding, electrode, slag, and oxidation. Describe the welding process, how heat is generated, what kind of filler metal is added (if any), and what protects the molten metal from the atmosphere.Name the different mechanical and thermal cutting methods. Choose one method and describe how to use the process. Discuss one advantage and one limitation of this process.Do the following:Select two welding processes, and make a list of the different components of the equipment required for each process. Discuss one advantage and one limitation for each process.Choose one welding process. Set up the process you have chosen, including gas regulators, work clamps, cables, filler materials, and equipment settings. Have your counselor inspect and approve the area for the welding process you have chosen.After successfully completing requirements 1 through 5, use the equipment you prepared for the welding process in 5b to do the following:Using a metal scribe or soapstone, sketch your initial onto a metal plate, and weld a bead on the plate following the pattern of your initial.Cover a small plate (approximately 3” x 3” x ¼”) with weld beads side by side.Tack two plates together in a square groove butt joint.Weld the two plates together from 6c on both sides.Tack two plates together in a T joint, have your counselor inspect it, then weld a T joint with fillet weld on both sides.Tack two plates together in a lap joint, have your counselor inspect it, then weld a lap joint with fillet weld on both sides.Do the following:Find out about three career opportunities in the welding industry. Pick one and find out the education, training, and experience required for this profession. Discuss this with your counselor, and explain why the profession might interest you.Discuss the role of the American Welding Society in the welding profession.
Reply:10-12g would be much more easy four young boys than trying to learn stick welding on 14g.  If you are going to use 14g, I would use 1/16 rod. 3/32 rod is perfect for 12g.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:14 ga is a bit of a challenge, but certainly possible with stick. I'd opt for 7014 as my 1st choice, 6013 as my 2nd and then 7018 followed by 6010/11. Rod size I wouldn't go larger than 3/32" and I'd certainly look at 5/64" or 1/16" rods as possible options. The down side of the tiny rods is they tend to be a bit "whippy" and hard to hold still at full length. You can cut the rod in half, knock off enough flux to attach the stinger and work with shorter rods. You may find this helpful with smaller kids due to their arm lengths anyways.As mentioned, given a choice, I'd want to have them use 1/8" ( 11ga) or thicker like 3/16" or 1/4". As the merit badge counselor you have some leeway in the regs as long as you stay within the basics of the requirements. Changing14ga to 11ga shouldn't be a major issue..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:con_fuse9,Good morning. I have been active in Boy Scouts for approaching 50 years and the rule on Merit Badges is "do nothing more and nothing less than what the requirements say". That said, I have read these requirements 2+ times and I do not see anything that specifies stick welding 14 gauge. The only stated material size is "Cover a small plate (approximately 3” x 3” x ¼”) with weld beads side by side.". Note that it says "approximately" so you have some latitude to use other appropriate material - like 6" x 2" x 1/8" or so.Other requirements are for different joint configurations, but no specific material is stated. So I would use whatever scrap materials I had or could scrounge. If the local troop leader is saying to use 14 gauge because he happens to have some or something like that, I would point out that will be very difficult for beginning stick welding and suggest using more reasonable material that will give them a better chance of success. I feel sure he will agree to that, especially if you provide the material.Good luck, and have fun. I'm looking forward to helping some Scouts with this Merit Badge.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:I'm chuckling and scratching my head about part where it says to explain the MSDS and it's importance...... Seriously, for boy scouts???  Yes, safety is very important, but some things are just common sense.  How many of us have actually taken the MSDS out of a box of electrodes and seriously read them for our own safety?  Talk about the part of the lecture to the scouts where they all start to fall asleep.  That's like forcing a 16 year old to have to  listen to a lecture about the chemical composition of gasoline, before he's issued his driving permit.   ZZZzzzzz.......  To the OP, I do understand however that as their counselor, you gotta follow the rules.   I'm just say'n......... Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:Sometimes the MDS sheets can be a hoot. Read one for oxygen some time. They have it listed as a breathing hazard!Yes I do understand why, but it's still funny..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks for all the replies.  I was out on vacation.  I have taken everything written into account.We are working on a slide show presentation.   We will be doing intro and a safety lecture Friday night.Next morning (Saturday) a review and setup work stations.  2 welders, 2 prep stations.We will be using MIG (gas shield) on the 14 gauge (thankfully).  The kids will be building a book end.  That will give them butt weld, lap weld, and some corners.  I think the plan is to grind the butt weld flat on an intermediate workstation.  I just powered up my new Multimatic last night so I will have maybe 15 minutes of arc time on that machine.  Need to double check the C25 bottle (maybe bring an extra) and trying to get the LWS to call me back about .030 tips (I have litterally one and they only stock .035 and larger).I got the boy scout welding merit badge handbook yesterday (relatively big book - compared to most) and will read it in detail tonight.  The scout master (who has welded in the past) thinks we have everything covered as far as requirements.20 kids have signed up.  And something about "with very enthusiastic parents"  I think that means dads that want to try as well.  If we have time, no problem.   I'm hoping we can run through at about 15 minutes per kid.   This will be done at a farm with a stocked pond and other activities for kids that are done or I suppose waiting their turn.  The scout leader wants to build a lightweight frame for jiffy pop over an open fire.  Our last camping attempt was not so successful (ended up making jiffy pop on gas grill instead).The scout master said something about brazing and cutting but he also said he has acetylene there already (good, one less bottle to figure out how to transport).I'm going to MIG up a frame to hold the gas bottles (some spare angle iron).  I only have 80s so I can stand them up inside the bed of the truck.  I have a cap on it right now so no tie dows available up high.  So the frame will be tied down at the bottom.  The welders themselves will be inside the cab.My list includes:Extra nozzlesExtra gas (total of two 80s, one 80% full, one 100%)Soap stone (and some silver colored pencils).Tool box (with enough to clean out anything that might get clogged).TIG setup just to show them and its my backup plan if something happens to the MIG. - bottle of argon.  I think both my bottles still have 1000+ psi on them.  Should be OK as backup.Nozzle spray.All my helmets - including the one with cheater lens for the grownups.Fiber helmet and bring the 14 lens to show them just how dark it can be.Extension cords - 12 gauge ones.Grinder - flap wheels only.Eye protection.Welding sleeves (arm protection).  Need to buy another pair...Small welding table.6013 rods. 3/32.Scout master is bringing gloves and bibs.  He said fire extinguishers are already there.  I'll bring a small one just in case.  He's bringing his small MIG.I'm also bring Miller's education posters.  I'm going to try to make a sample of weld errors (that will be tough ).  Need to remind the scout master to tell parents to send the right kind of cloths.  Cotton jeans, cotton long sleave shirt (preferably darker color).  Leather shoe/boots.  Cotton socks.My big thing is to finish the slide show before Friday, get the LWS to call me back about the .030 tips, and figure out how to put it all in the truck.Trying to keep things as exciting for the kids as possible - going to try not to bore them.  Personally I hope that some of them will gain more confidence in their own abilities.  My father instilled the "You can do anything.... and I mean ANYTHING you put your mind to"As for the not bore them to death.  I'm going to try to stick to a script.  Damn I can be long winded....Thanks again. (sorry about the mis-direction about stick welding - we made the sample with MIG and we are sticking to it).Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Confuse, I don't know if you ever saw my posts for the pie pan dutch ovens or not we made for Scouts...http://weldingweb.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=10http://weldingweb.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=11 A super easy metal working project the scouts can use and enjoy, but no real welding involved. Good luck and have fun, I know the kids will..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Subscribing. I saw they had this badge and am considering getting involved with my old troop on it.IW Local 580 NY, NY
Reply:Hey Confuse.Sounds like you will have a lot of fun with the Welding Merit Badge. I ordered a copy of the MB Pamphlet and will pick it up today. I'm hoping to help my old troop with it or add at our Merit Badge College this January.I would ask the boys to bring safety glasses. Those are cheap, you can never have enough, and the boys will think they are cool.Don't forget a chipping hammer for the stick welding.And lots of scrap to learn on, before doing the bookends!Take pictures and let us know how it goes!Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Just curious: how long does the process take, from the Scout saying "I want to earn this badge" to passing the test?I agree that starting out with 14 ga steel would be a bit of a challenge, but maybe the idea is to have them learn on 1/4" and then as the Scouts learn and get better, move them to more difficult scenarios i.e. 14 ga. Then it becomes a learning process / skills development challenge.
Reply:Ask if local welding suppliers,steel shops, etc. would be willing to donate to the troops cause. You never know until you ask. Bring them some pictures too. MSD sheets: Did you ever listen to those drug companies when they tell you about the possible side effects ?? Talk about scary.
Reply:Originally Posted by asdfJust curious: how long does the process take, from the Scout saying "I want to earn this badge" to passing the test?I agree that starting out with 14 ga steel would be a bit of a challenge, but maybe the idea is to have them learn on 1/4" and then as the Scouts learn and get better, move them to more difficult scenarios i.e. 14 ga. Then it becomes a learning process / skills development challenge.
Reply:Just some feedback/results/report.It took lots of prep on the part of the adults.  The place we did it was on a horse farm where the owner uses a shop to build, among other things, off-road trucks.  Nice to have the trucks there to show the kids what can be done.The idea was to have the kids build a project.  The project we chose was 'book ends'.  A flat piece, a vertical piece, a diagonal/gusset.  The flat pieces were actually two pieces.  Either butt or lap welded.  We had two welding stations.  One with a Hobart 175 (I did say we were doing it now with MIG) and one with a Multimatic 200 (running on 120V).  The shop had about 60 Amps service and the 200 was on the same circuit as the lone grinder (yes, it was an issue).We did it as a camping trip.  This would allow those not welding to do other things (stocked pond/fishing for example).  Arrived Friday night.  Medium/light rain.  Put us behind schedule.  Didn't get to the lecture until 9:30-10ish.  The farm had internet access (slow) so we had access to some youtube videos (including 'amazing blaze' and videos from Miller, and Myth buster's gas cylinder rocket).  Spent about 1/2hr in lecture room.Next we walked by the shop.  Played with the helmets.  I remember 25 years ago being intimidated by the helmets and wanted to get everyone in them.  We had 5 auto-dark and 3 fixed shade available.Next day we 'ran through' the kids 4 at a time.  Went sorta like this:1) Get on safety equipment.  Leather smock, welding sleeves, helmet, gloves.  Note: Optrel and Miller helmets adjusted down to even the smallest of 11 year olds.  Also, we were lucky to have smaller welding sleeves available.  But we needed larger sleeves as well.  Because of the rain, one kid didn't have long pants (rain leaked into his tent).   Fortunately we had extra welding sleeves and used the sleeves to cover his legs....2) Show the equipment.  Gas cylinder, roll of wire in welder, show adjustments (wire feed, gas, volt, wirespeed), showed them everything was safe.2) Showed them wire feeding out of welder.3) Had them get really close and showed them up close running a bead on a practice piece.4) Let them run two beads on practice piece (about 4").  The first was just a straight line, most traveled too slow.  I found if I was on the other side of the table I could reach over and with one finger slow them down.  The next bead showed them making little 'L's to a rythm.   "1 mississippi, 2 mississippi" etc.5) Next, right into welding the project.  Tack weld, run a butt joint.  Note, our original plan was for them to run the joint and we would grind it flat were the vertical piece would come in contact.  Grinding took too much time.  Skip weld and avoid the middle/grinding area.6) Then discuss a little how heat moves.  Lap joints with them concentrating the heat on the flat bottom piece.7) ditto with corner fillets.The material was slightly thicker than 10 gauge - thinner than 3/16.  Welded everything with 3/16 settings.  The beads themselves were on the large side.  The most warping came from butt joint (only welded on one side).All the kids were good.  Some needed more hands on help then others (I found I could touch/hold the gun as necessary by holding just past the nozzle).  Some kids I helped on one bead and they made phenominal welds on their own.  Roughly speaking they all did about 10 4" welds.Lessons learned.1) Kids don't know how to use grinders.   We tried to bevel the edges for the butt joint, but teaching a kid to evenly move a grinder along a 4" edge was difficult.  We ended up using small bevels (practically none-existant).2) The metal we had was very clean.  Minimal cleanup and if they didn't clean the joint no big deal, weld right over it.3) Even though the kids had zero experience welding beforehand, those that did hobbies like plastic models (painting them) picked it up fast.4) Bring enough stools for the instructors!!!!   6hrs5) Two separating tables by 10-15 feet and you can run two at a time.  We had backs to each other and did not interfere.  We are both hobby welders and never had two going at the same time (except 25 years ago when I took a class - but had heavy curtains in-between...  This was a large 3-car garage.6) We showed Miller's video on how to setup the Multimatic 200 for MIG.  That was a bit too much info and not all that simple.  The video is not generic enough.  Questions like "we have to remember all that?"   Good, basic intro videos are tough to come by.   ESAB's power points are pretty decent - just skip about have the slides (too much info).7) By looking at the pressure gauge on the gas.  I think I had about 1hr arc time and 20-25 cu ft of gas. (from just over 1100psi to just over 500).  About 11 kids + 3 adults + show and tell (let some play with the welder running practice on scrap).8) Double check what you bring.  I bought my Maxstar 200, but all the hoses, cables, pedals etc. were left in a box by the back door of the house...  So I could talk about TIG, but couldn't show anyone.  I did have filler rods and tungsten, collets, etc.   For those of you that don't have a 'rig', it takes longer to load up than you expect.  I brought 3 bottles, 2 C25s and one argon, wasn't an issue but plan ahead how you will carry them.  I made a frame and actually carried them flat in the bed of the truck.  I was going to make a stand-up frame but figured it would be harder to secure.  Maybe next time.9) Power is an issue.  My house has 400Amp service and two 50 Amp plugs (and I have an adapter to put a 50 Amp socket where the dryer plugs in).  The shop had a single 50 Amp line and a single 110V breaker (15 Amps).  We had multiple trips of the circuits.  There was a 25 Amp, 230 outlet, but we had no adapter for it.10) The multimatic is great even at low power.  I might have touched on the thermal switch when we tried to pick up the pace.  To control warping we broke up the welds into 2" runs, both sides, skip welding etc.  That seemed to be 100% OK.I think I made two sales of Millermatic 200s (one to the Hobart 175 owner).  I think I should get commission!I think we have 24 new weldors...Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1Ask if local welding suppliers,steel shops, etc. would be willing to donate to the troops cause. You never know until you ask. Bring them some pictures too. MSD sheets: Did you ever listen to those drug companies when they tell you about the possible side effects ?? Talk about scary.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonThere are no time limitations in the requirements, but there is some book study from the merit badge book prior to meeting with the counselor. If the scout is prepared(duh), he can meet with the counselor, go through the sit down, and knock out projects in an afternoon. Some districts have merit badge midways on a Saturday that have the troops in the district study the books, then show up for the midway(usually at church or school), and go from counselor to counselor and knock out a bunch of badges.But in general I would say 2 evenings would be ideal.
Reply:Originally Posted by wb4rtHey Confuse.Sounds like you will have a lot of fun with the Welding Merit Badge. I ordered a copy of the MB Pamphlet and will pick it up today. I'm hoping to help my old troop with it or add at our Merit Badge College this January.I would ask the boys to bring safety glasses. Those are cheap, you can never have enough, and the boys will think they are cool.Don't forget a chipping hammer for the stick welding.And lots of scrap to learn on, before doing the bookends!Take pictures and let us know how it goes!
Reply:One last thing.  My Miller Digital Elite had a 1.5 diopter cheater lens in it.  I found it too be too strong of a prescription for observing someone else weld.  I took it out and it was much much better.   I was probably at about arm's length (little less) from the weld pool.  The kids of course used helmets that had no cheater lenses.Because all the adults were 40+ (OK, 45+) they used the cheater.I had a chance to go back and forth between an Optrel and the Elite and could really see the difference.  Not really in clarity, but in color.  Optrel blue/white arc.  Elite a bit on the green side.  I had new covers on all the lenses, and the bigger window of the Elite was helful.  Having a nice autodark meant I could line up the metal and let the kids tack it in place with me having the hood down.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Very cool of you to do this. Sounds like you had fun.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Thanks for the report!I've been checking this thread to see how it went. I'm planning to do a similar session with our scouts.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com