Can this vise be saved?

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I found this old Wilton #6 (Chicago, Ill.)  last month lying in the weeds out behind the wellhouse belonging to one of my customers, a woman who is selling the property & who has since moved to the DFW area.  God knows how long it had been there.This sucker is huge; that is an 8 inch Crescent I tossed in front of it for scale & it weighs in at 105 pounds.  The moving jaw is stuck inside the receiver and so far has resisted all manner of prying, tapping and banging.  Since taking the picture, I have successfully removed the swivel base (had to use an 18 inch pipe wrench on the holddown nuts), and the screw came right out.  The nut feels good, believe it or not & the screw had a fair coating of grease on the threads.  I got the handle freed up, too.  Besides the stuck jaw, the collar or yoke is missing and the 3 screws that held it in place are broken off in the casting.  I figure I can make a new collar, drill out the old screws and re-tap to a slightly larger size if necessary.  Now if anybody just happens to have a collar lying around, I would happily pay the postage & maybe buy you a brownie or something?My brilliant plan so far is to haul it over to my shop & hang it from a hoist by the moving jaw - just off the floor -  and heat the throat with a torch to see if I can break it loose.  Any better ideas? Attached Images
Reply:Thats a good looking hunk of iron. I'd soak it with some "Kroil" for a couple of weeks, before I attempted to do anything else.That will make a real good vise. I have a 5" swivel jaw Wilton that I've had for over thirty years.
Reply:Cutter, that vise is an ideal candidate for ELECTROLYTIC derusting.It's going to take some time in the tank, but electrolytic will remove the rust, and make disassembly simple.I'd start by hanging the vise in the tank from the screw, and cook it for a while, then unscrew the screw.From there, change where you connect and derust piece by piece.We've successfully derusted seriously corroded hit & miss engines using electrolosys as part of the disassembly process.Chances are that vise was tossed because the setscrew in the screw retaining collar came loose, and the owner didn't know how to tighten it.NICE FIND!Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Cutter, Wilton doesn't build 'em like that anymoreI  That baby is cast steel, not worthless cast iron.  Five years ago, that No. 6 sold for $1200, can't even guess what it would go for today.  Today the vise market is flooded with Chicom junk and I think even Wilton has rolled over and may now build some there.I agree with Franz and Jim about using a derusting solution or a penetrant like Kroil or Knock'erloose.  I've gotten aircraft constant speed drives (CSD's) with coked and hooked splines separated from generators with Knock'erloose.  That's about a $100K combination.  I'd be inclined to use the derusting procedure first on your vise.  There's something else you should know.  The back end of that model should consist of a cap which is retained by a pin.  If you can find that pin and drive or drill it out, you should be able to remove the cap.  You may need a slide hammer.  That should provide better access from the back end for the derusting or penetrant to work.  You can still buy parts for this model,  but bunch your muscles when you ask the prices.
Reply:toss it in bucket of diesel fuel for a week
Reply:Originally posted by OlPilot Cutter, Wilton doesn't build 'em like that anymoreI  That baby is cast steel, not worthless cast iron.  Five years ago, that No. 6 sold for $1200,   You can still buy parts for this model,  but bunch your muscles when you ask the prices.
Reply:Cutter, you could use it on a pedestal mount also.  You could use old heavy truck wheels or discs for the base welded to 4" pipe.  Franz can probably suggest what type of junkyard stuff to use.  I think it might be more useable this way than on a table.
Reply:Ok, so I need to know.  I'm in the process of picking up a used vise soon, hopefully, but wanted to get one for my brother. The short version is he was hit by a drunk driver and lost a leg.  He is spending a lot of his time with his hobby, which is metal working.  I want to get him something that will last him an extremely long time and was going to get him a new Wilton 5" swivel Machinst vise linked CLICK HERE  , but are you saying that ALL of their vises are now crap?  This $500 is a lot of money to me, so if it's not going to last then I'll get him something else.  But if it's the same top quality they have made for years, then I will definitely get it for him.  I'd go bigger if I could, but can't at the moment since I'm not working.Thanks
Reply:If you can't get it working it'll be worth its wieght in gold as scrap metal for the chinese.J P Streets Welding LLC
Reply:Junk, it might just be my cantankerous nature, but I don't think I'd pay those people $500 for that vise.If you go to Froogle on Google and type in 5" wilton vise http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=wilton+5%22+viseyou get over 1000 hits.Notice that most of them don't use the R with a circle indicating it is a real Wilton vise.  Evidently a lot of people have figured a way to make a copy and market it as a Wilton.The real thing should show the registered trademark.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Thanks Franz.  That's what has me worried.  So based on everything I'm reading, no matter how much money I spend, it's impossible to get him a good vise any longer.  Unless of course I find a used one sitting in a field somewhere and clean it up.  This is really frustrating.
Reply:Originally posted by Junk Thanks Franz.  That's what has me worried.  So based on everything I'm reading, no matter how much money I spend, it's impossible to get him a good vise any longer.  Unless of course I find a used one sitting in a field somewhere and clean it up.  This is really frustrating.
Reply:Thanks Cutter.I'm having a tough time finding liquidations and sales but continue to try.  It's almost become a part time job at this point.  Will continue and am not complaining about it.Will continue to search.  Thanks.
Reply:what is the big difference between the mechanics vise and the machinist vise? The price is double for the same size.
Reply:the machinists vice may have an index on itStangnetShop Full Of Stuff. Joey
Reply:The Machinists vice is built to much closer tolerances when bolted down to the bead of a machine The fixed jaw will be perpendicular to the bead and the base will be parallel to the bead. It is used fore machining. Whereas the mechanics vise is used to hold parts while you beat the living **** out of them or weld sump thing  or put the torches to that part that wont come apart.
Reply:If you read the descriptions, the machinist's vise is stated to be twice as strong as the mechanic's, several differences like that.
Reply:On that web page that Franz previously referenced for vises, note that some are listed at 30 ksi  tensile, others at 60 ksi.  The 30 ksi ones are sorry-assed cast iron.  Just try beating on the anvil of one for any length of time with your sledgeomatic and see what happens!  The 60 ksi vises should at least be cast steel.  But it's not just a question of tensile strength differences here, there's another metallurgical parameter to consider called fracture toughness.  Fracture toughness is measured on V-notched samples  using a Charpy impact tester.  Cast iron, with all the carbide precipitates in it, is brittle.  It's hard and is wonderful in compression, but not in tension or where impact or cyclic loads are applied.Some years ago, I had a problem with planetary gear trains failing in DC-10 lower belly compartment cargo power drive units.  I called the manufacturer in Germany and asked their chief engineer what  material he had selected for these small and very highly loaded gears.  "17-4 PH" he replied.  "Thomas", I said, "When was the last time you checked MIL-Handbook-5?"  "Why", he said.  "Well", I said, "If you don't heat treat 17-4PH (a precipitation hardening stainless steel), you've got peanut butter.  If you do heat treat it, you've got glass.  Neither one is suitable for impact loaded gears."  I got him to change the material to a 300 series steel.  Expensive and harder than the hubs of hell for wear resistance, but it also had fracture toughness.  The problem went away.Maybe someday the Chicom manufactures of drill bits, vises and such will learn that just because something looks the same, it ain't necessarily so.  When they do wake up, and change to better materials, the prices are bound to go up.---------------------------------------------------I remember when sex was safe and flying was dangerous.
Reply:Well, based on everyone's feedback, I started pickup up the weekly newspaper to find a vise.Found a local auto repair guy going out of business.This is what I got (film getting developed, will post pics when I get them back).4 vises, 1 a Reed that opens about 12", 2 Columbians 1 opens about 7" and one about 5", and one old Wilton that opens about 11".  Also got a box of exhaust clamps and hangers.  Older Baldor 6" benchtop grinder.Total cost was $100.  I'm jacked up.  Thought I'd share to let you know the deals are out there.  So don't give up.
Reply:Newb, look in your rearview mirror for flashing lights, the cops might be on you for highway robbery.The Columbians are Wilton's second line, like Blue Point is SnapOn's second line.Reed is an old machinery manufacturer.You scored a lifetime supply of vises for $100-, now all you gotta deal with is the hernia you got runnin off with them.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:DAMN!!!! Good deal, I'll give you 40 for one of them.
Reply:Thanks Franz and thanks Banzaitoyota.  Will post some pics when I get them.  Banzai, wait till you see the pics, then let me know if you want any.
Reply:lets see some more pics of this vice after ELECTROLYTIC derusting and of those vices you got at the sale newb
Reply:I'm getting my pics back tomorrow, so will post 'em up.  They ain't pretty, but they will definitely last longer than I will or any of those chicomwaneeseposjobs out there.Maybe TSP would work too for those of us that don't have the knowledge for electolysis.  I didn't do that though.  I just wiped 'em off and figured I'll use them as is.
Reply:TSP is a non contestant.For electrolytic cleaning the electrolyte is Sodium Silicate.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-Old man Wilton got dunked into the vat yesterday and started on the road to recovery, I hope.  This picture shows the results after about 18 hours into the rust removal process.  Nastier looking than anything I've done before, but then this was a really rusty old vise, too. Attached Images
Reply:Looks like some good soup. Will this process remove chrome too?
Reply:You can add acid to water to speed up the process and take off chrome also.
Reply:Mike, what type of acid and how much?  That looks like a nasty dish my wife would try serve up.
Reply:BOYS, do NOT add acid to this process, acid will neutralize the electrolyte.Cutter the tank looks about right, and I hope you remembered to do it in a well ventilated area.Come th think of it Cutter, it would be better if you just crate that vise up and ship it to me so I can give it a decent burial at the end of a bench.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Cutter,Be patient - when Franz first posted this procedure over at Hobart (last May), my son had just got a car from a friend.  The trunk had water standing in the spare wheel well.  We recovered the scissor type jack that had been submerged for who knows how long.  The thing was total rust.  The screw type shaft was locked tight, wouldn't budge.  I took it home and took my first stab at Franz's procedure.  Washing soda was easy to find here at most grocery stores.  My initial reaction was like yours - what a nasty mess.  In about 24 hours the shaft was free.  I was amazed at how the process worked within the threaded part of it that was rusted.  I guess we could call it the screw and the nut - the internal parts that weren't visible when it was still locked up.  I let it go for another 24 hrs. and it was pretty darn clean.  My son and I were both amazed.  Painted it and it works great.  From the looks of your vise, it doesn't look like you need to be in any hurry.  I don't know how long it will take, but just give it time.Allen T.
Reply:I imagine while this needs to be done in a ventilated area, that care needs to be taken as to where it is done right?  After all, anything that would touch the water would get a strong jolt, so if there's any squirrels or dogs running around looking for a free drink (or kids playing) they'd get a nasty surprise.  Just want to make sure I have my basis covered.  As soon as cutter gets done, I'm going to try it, so I'm itchin in my kitchen to try it.
Reply:Originally posted by Newb I imagine while this needs to be done in a ventilated area, that care needs to be taken as to where it is done right?  After all, anything that would touch the water would get a strong jolt, so if there's any squirrels or dogs running around looking for a free drink (or kids playing) they'd get a nasty surprise.  Just want to make sure I have my basis covered.  As soon as cutter gets done, I'm going to try it, so I'm itchin in my kitchen to try it.
Reply:Okay, I got a couple of "in progress" pictures.  I managed to wrestle the beast out of the soup without straining my uterus or anything at about the 22 hour mark, yesterday afternoon.  I rigged up a crude tripod & used an old wire-stretcher from my antique tool collection to temporarily suspend it by the moving jaw, hoping its own weight would begin to free up the slide.  No luck yet.  Banging on it didn't help either.  So I laid it down & got a few shots to show you.Here is a side view: Attached Images
Reply:In the picture in the previous post, you can see that I lightly wire brushed the ball shaped area on the left side of the pic, on the moving jaw.  That was with a few strokes using a hand-powered brush so the rust is dissolving pretty fast.  I thought this might encourage some of you who said you are waiting to see how this turns out before you give it a try.  Here is a closer look where you can plainly see the process is working very well: Attached Images
Reply:The best news of the 22 hour report is that I was able to get 2 of the 3 broken collar screws out of the jaw.  These are the screws that once held the retaining collar which keeps the main screw locked into the moving jaw.  (The collar is missing.)  The top screw is broken off flush.  Think of the vise grips as being at the 9 o'clock position;  the flush-broke screw is at 12 o'clock & three o'clock is protruding from the casting.  I'll leave the problematic one until I am finished soaking the whole thing, then figure out how to get a grip on it.  I was very happy to get the first two out so soon. Attached Images
Reply:looks great so far, just got back from purchasing my ingredients and got an old storage bin ready to go.
Reply:Cutter to get the flush broken screw out, find some left hand twist drills and use a reversable drill.  That screw will probably un-thread will you drill it.
Reply:Originally posted by Newb looks great so far, just got back from purchasing my ingredients and got an old storage bin ready to go.
Reply:Originally posted by Franz Come th think of it Cutter, it would be better if you just crate that vise up and ship it to me so I can give it a decent burial at the end of a bench.
Reply:Cutter, if you wanna slip it in the carryon that'll work just fine.Don't forget to bring all the parts.Appreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:Yes, it's a plastic bin, thanks for asking.
Reply:Cutter, 20 parts water and one part muriatic acid would work faster.
Reply:When we getting an update Cutter?  Your wife didn't serve you that for dinner did she?
Reply:Cutter, this is the best address I could find.  Don't know if they can help with parts.  I tend to think Wilton has been gobbled up and is mostly offshore now.WILTON TOOL GROUP300 S Hicks RdPalatine, IL 60067Phone: 847-934-6000Fax: 847-934-6730A few years ago, my boss bought parts for what appears to be an identical vise.  I'll see if he can remember where he got them.
Reply:Originally posted by Newb When we getting an update Cutter?  Your wife didn't serve you that for dinner did she?
Reply:This a detail of the front of the sliding section at the 18 hour mark on top and the lower was taken at about 44 hours.  You can also see right down the gullet.  I am beginning to doubt that I will be able to budge the jaw until I either buy or fabricate the collar so I can use the screw to back the jaw out.  No time for that right now.  However if anyone still doubts whether the process will remove rust, this 2nd picture should be proof enough. Attached Images
Reply:Thanks OP.  I did a google search, found an email address that seemed to match, sent an inquiry & got an "unable to deliver" back right away.  When time permits maybe - very late to work as it is.  Good thing I own my own time clock.cutter
Reply:cutter, I'm really enjoying this thread and watching your progress on the vise.
Reply:Originally posted by Jim314 cutter, I'm really enjoying this thread and watching your progress on the vise.