Weld - What am I doing wrong?

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I humbly submit this for advice:  what am I dong wrong?  6013 3/32 rod, 2" square tubing, vertical weld.  That hole is common when I am running 6013 and I cant figure out why.  If you had a weld that this showed up on, what would you think and what corrective action would you take?http://imageshack.us/a/img268/8338/dscn1910f.jpgThanks for the help.Last edited by Linepipe; 01-31-2013 at 03:33 PM.
Reply:Second try to post pic.
Reply:Is you tubing closed at each end? If so there could be a build up of gasses/pressure which is not allowing it to weld/fill in. Just a guess.Melt-n-Metal
Reply:Originally Posted by lookingIs you tubing closed at each end? If so there could be a build up of gasses/pressure which is not allowing it to weld/fill in. Just a guess.
Reply:better fitup ....   trash the 6013 and use 6011 or 7018..
Reply:This happens with the 6013 with good fitup (although it is greatly reduced), and with the other end of the pipe open, but your point there on pressure buildup is well taken.  You can tell it is going to do this when the slag is cooling - the last piece of the slag to cool from yeallow/red is the hole, and it doesn't cool at the same rate as the rest of the weld, it does it slower.  And if you dont get ALL that slag out you can count on it still being there when you reweld.Weldbead - why trash the 6013?  I have both 6011 and 7018, but just curious on your reason.Thanks for the help on this.  It is greatly appreciated.Last edited by Linepipe; 01-31-2013 at 05:28 PM.
Reply:It's a fast freeze rod, in your situation I would push pull (whip) a stringer straight down inststead of doing a circular type weave. Then go from there on if you need a second pass or not depending on what your building. You'll visually know as your welding that the whole joint was filled. I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:In my opinion your problem is the slag of the 6013.  Get with the 7018 and 6011/10 like previously stated, I believe you will be better off in the long run.
Reply:This can be a common problem with tubing butt welds.  You're not filling the rounded shoulder next to the thin angle cut.Focus the heat against the round shoulder, and allow the metal to wash into the gap.  You might need to gently push metal up against the puddle to fill particularly nasty gaps, or where you see burn thru starting.  A straight drag sometimes won't work on these joints, you sometimes have to manipulate the puddle a bit to fill the gap.Close fitup won't solve the problem, it's because of the rounded shoulder meeting the thin cutoff on the angled piece.  I suppose coping the joint would help, but who has the time for that.These are some old pics.Filling the gap.  1/8 7018, 11ga tubing.  Note the manipulation to fill the joint, it's very close to whipping but it's at the face of the puddle pushing it back.Another butt weld on the same project ground out in order to provice a flat surface to fitup another piece to the joint.  Notice there's no voids despite the aggressive rod manipulation used to make these welds.I don't advocate whipping, it took me some time to learn not to.  But in some cases when dealing with very thin edges it's about the only way to get it done.  Don't actually go back over the puddle, just push into the puddle to build the filler.  You'll see it under the hood.Anyhow, now you know what's happening with your welds.  It's simply the filler material going behind the joint, ie. falling into the gap.  It's easy to remedy once you change the technique a bit."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Just my 2 cents worth as I gave up on stick welding when this was a regular occurance for me and bought a plasma welder outfit....2" square tubing needs a bit more heat and the 3/32" rod burns and cools too quick to get it.I found, and this is just me, that the thin rods, 2.5mm or 3/32" just don't give a good weld on any thickish material due to the heat dissipation that rapidly occurs.Ï used 3mm or 1/8" rods and amps up to 125 amps to get the melt zone with enough penetration for that thick tubing.2.5mm or 3/32" rods are OK for the thin stuff like 25mm tubing etc.....just my 2 cents worth.Ian.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeIt's a fast freeze rod, in your situation I would push pull (whip) a stringer straight down inststead of doing a circular type weave. Then go from there on if you need a second pass or not depending on what your building. You'll visually know as your welding that the whole joint was filled.
Reply:[QUOTE=Linepipe;2223961]Weldbead - why trash the 6013?  I have both 6011 and 7018, but just curious on your reason.i always found  6013 puddle and slag too "runny", could never control it enough to keep slag out ..not sure i ever kept anything i ever did out of 6013, usually grind it out and use 7018..i get a nice result with 6011 downhill and 7018 up,as farmersamm is saying, i get better control with 6011/7018.. so i never had any use for 6013..just me..
Reply:Those holes are sometimes reffered to as wormholes. I do use 6013 often and this is one of the main issues of this rod. Too much travel speed is usually the problem. Stay in the upper range of the amp range and take your time to allow the puddle to join both sides. If you go too fast you will get two parallel separated beads with a slag filled line in between. At least that's my experience.I preffer 7018 mainly because of this but it is more expensive and hard to find in some sizes. 6013 is available at pretty much any size so it is the go to rod for thin metal.Good luck!Mikel
Reply:It could also be the weld prep if there is any oil on the tubing inside or out it could be drawn into the weld and cause it to not bond when I was a production welder they had us spray down the trailers with a paint sprayer filled with antispatter this would happen all the time so they stoped using it
Reply:I can see several possible issues here. Biggest one is that I'm not sure the OP can really read the puddle yet. I say this because of several things I see in that pict. 1st the bead is very inconsistent. Side to side size of the ripples is different and varies constantly. Also it looks like the vertical movement is inconsistent and is constantly changing. Then there's that really bad section where there was the slag inclusion.A lot of this looks to me like what I see when guys try to do timing patterns running vertical rather than reading the puddle and moving accordingly. I also see similar results if the student hasn't yet learned to distinguish what is slag and what is molten metal in the puddle.I'd agree 6013 isn't the best choice here. I find many students have a lot of trouble burying slag when running 6013 even though it can be an easy rod to learn with. 7014 and 7018 are often better choices for this. Note that not all 7018 runs the same, and I've had 7018 that ran clear as day and was almost impossibly easy to read vertical, and 7018 where it was a struggle to read the puddle. I'm betting the "good" stuff was probably Excaliber etc that someone donated to the tech school and the crappy stuff was some cheaper stuff they were given. It's tough a lot of times to know just what is in the bin you are working with from week to week..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW, you are probably pretty spot on with you analysis.  I am not that good at reading the slag, and 6013 is a pain for me to weld with.  Always has been; I think I am getting some of it figured out here on this thread.I took the suggestion by MinnesotaDave & others to turn up the amperage and the tips from FarmerSam, etc to whip.  Here is what I got when I welded some scrap metal together yesterday (to make a scrap bin):Better.  Not perfect, but better.  Let me know if you see anything here that needs further refinement.Thaks for the help guys.Last edited by Linepipe; 02-03-2013 at 04:05 PM.
Reply:Better fit up (No gap), Fleetweld 180 rods and run downhill or flat to keep the puddle cool.Lincoln SA200's... at least 15 - 20. They come and go. Growing partial to the "Short Hoods" in my old age. Last count on Short Hoods was 13 in possession.