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Hey guys,I recently made the decision to pursue some metal work after years of putting it off deeming it impossible to learn on my own. I went to a trade school in high school and did very light welding with oxy-acetylene.... That was 6 years ago and I forgot everything about it so I've been catching back up on it by watching videos and searching about. Anyway.. I'm on a pretty tight budget and am looking into getting a stick welder. Are there any recommendations? I'd like to be able to weld 14 gauge sheet metal. Also what is preferred an AC or DC machine if you had to pick one?
Reply:Look for used on craigslist. I suggest an AC/DC machine like a Miller Thunderbolt (they come AC and AC/DC), Lincoln "tombstone", Hobart Stickmate (they also come AC and AC/DC). For more money you can get into a Miller dialarc or Lincoln Idealarc. There are also many more decent older welders out there that are reliable.Where do you live? We can make suggestions based on your location. Welcome to the forum.GravelThe difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
Reply:Thanks Gravel. I'm in Massachusetts, relatively close to Rhode Island.
Reply:Originally Posted by CritchThanks Gravel. I'm in Massachusetts, relatively close to Rhode Island.
Reply:Originally Posted by CritchThanks Gravel. I'm in Massachusetts, relatively close to Rhode Island.
Reply:What gravel said! You can find a good old used miller or Lincoln for a few hundred dollars. The older units have very few parts that will fail and can usually stand up to anything short of a natural disaster (though I have heard of old Lincoln tombstones working after going through a flood) as far as the sheet metal you can get acceptable results with a little practice, my suggestion would be something with D/C output and you can later add a $70 weld kraft tig torch and argon bottle to get your feet wet on a little scratch start tig (definitely not the best option for tig but will get you into it fairly cheap and you can make some very nice welds with a little time behind the mask) Good luck! It's awesome to see people getting into the fab world and learning new things.Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1You should add your location to the ''location'' on about me and it will show up on thread. I agree with Gravel, AC/DC thunderbolt will work well. As for the 14 gauge that would be perfect for mig welding.   You'll find that some sellers of used  MILLERS want as much for used machines as new. I saw a Miller 135 where the guy wanted more then what a 140 should be. IF you find a used one cheap you best grab it quick and take CASH.
Reply:I'm willing to spend around $200-$250 on a startup welder. Someone pointed out the stick welders at Home Depot/ Lowes, etc to me but I'm unsure about that... Thanks for the help by the way everyone
Reply:You said 14 gauge sheet metal? Wouldn't do it with a stick. Sounds like you need a mig or tig for that. The old Lincolns and killers can be had for a fair price, checkout eBay and Craiglist for the best deals. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by manikYou said 14 gauge sheet metal? Wouldn't do it with a stick. Sounds like you need a mig or tig for that. The old Lincolns and killers can be had for a fair price, checkout eBay and Craiglist for the best deals. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:New vs used... I wouldn't waste money on a new transformer stick unit. As others have mentioned, they can be found dirt cheap used on CL. Don't be too scared of going used on a machine like this. They are dead simple and the vast majority are built like tanks. If it welds, chances are it will still be welding 50 years from now despite a huge amount of abuse. Those that do "die", it's usually something as simple as a bad switch. People seldom destroy the transformer unless they really try hard to break it.14 ga isn't the easiest thing to learn to stick weld with, but it's not impossible. Smaller rods may welding that thickness easier. 3/32" rods would be the largest I'd recommend someone just starting out use and smaller rods might make it a bit easier. Having said that I've done 14 ga with 1/8" 7018, so it is doable with larger rods if you have experience. Mig would be a bit easier, especially when 1st starting out, but it's not "required".Down side of mig is the increased cost. Inexpensive units are limited in material thickness. Those units are usually 110v powered and max out at 1/8" at best under real world conditions. New migs in your price range aren't worth bothering with..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:My only thing with buying used is not knowing enough about the welders to know what a deal or kind of mechanical shape it is in. Some of the machines I'm seeing are $300-$600 but they look like they've been thrown into Nagasaki during WWII. Like you said the increased cost of switching to MIG would be a problem within itself for me atleast. What is recommended for amperage for a stick to weld something 14 gauge?
Reply:Originally Posted by CritchThanks Gravel. I'm in Massachusetts, relatively close to Rhode Island.
Reply:Amperage for stick welding 14 ga would be less than 90 amps roughly. Mig is a "constant voltage" process and "amperage" isn't the same as constant current processes like stick so don't confuse the two. The good thing about transformer stick units is even those "Nagasaki" machines most likely work no matter how beat up they appear. Sight unseen, I'd be more apt to bet on an older tranny stick unit working than any other. They are that robust and just keep on going..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Alright, I'll have to keep looking around on Craigslist then. My only other issue is I only have 220v traditional outlets in my basement. Do a majority of these welders have different plugs?
Reply:Almost all 220v welders use the same 50 amp 3 prong Nema 6-50 P plug. What you have in your basement may vary depending on age of the home and original use of the outlet. Many basement outlets are typically 30 amp dryer outlets, since that's what they are used for. Older ones would be 3 prong, newer ones are now 4 prong since newer dryers need the extra neutral for the 110v  parts. Building a 30 amp to 50 amp "adapter" isn't all that hard and is covered here several times.A 30 amp outlet won't allow you to use most transformer machines to full capacity, but will allow you to use at least 90 amps in output, enough to run most 3/32" rods, and plenty for your intended use.I would recommend against welding in a basement with stick for several reasons. Best bet would be to make yourself a 220v extension cord and weld outside. I did this for years when I was in an apartment. I ran the cord out the basement window from the dryer connection. This would also solve that 30 amp to 50 amp plug issue. You just put the 30 amp plug on one end and the 50 amp outlet on the other and have a long "adapter"..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWAlmost all 220v welders use the same 50 amp 3 prong Nema 6-50 P plug. What you have in your basement may vary depending on age of the home and original use of the outlet. Many basement outlets are typically 30 amp dryer outlets, since that's what they are used for. Older ones would be 3 prong, newer ones are now 4 prong since newer dryers need the extra neutral for the 110v  parts. Building a 30 amp to 50 amp "adapter" isn't all that hard and is covered here several times.A 30 amp outlet won't allow you to use most transformer machines to full capacity, but will allow you to use at least 90 amps in output, enough to run most 3/32" rods, and plenty for your intended use.I would recommend against welding in a basement with stick for several reasons. Best bet would be to make yourself a 220v extension cord and weld outside. I did this for years when I was in an apartment. I ran the cord out the basement window from the dryer connection. This would also solve that 30 amp to 50 amp plug issue. You just put the 30 amp plug on one end and the 50 amp outlet on the other and have a long "adapter".
Reply:Make sure if you buy a stick welding machine to buy an AC-DC machine.Most of the welding rods sold are DC prefered.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomMake sure if you buy a stick welding machine to buy an AC-DC machine.Most of the welding rods sold are DC prefered.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomMake sure if you buy a stick welding machine to buy an AC-DC machine.Most of the welding rods sold are DC prefered.
Reply:Now is it just a quality issue of the welds between DC/ AC?
Reply:It's all skill, choice in materials and knowing the limitations of the equipment and whomever is operating said equipment. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:I prefer DC, but, there again it depends on the application. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:My goal is to be making medieval helmets as a hobbyist. I know some people make decent side money doing it. Would AC be sufficient for welding this type of thing with 14-20 gauge steel?
Reply:Stick is really a poor choice for welding steel below 16 ga. Even 16 ga is very tough for many using either AC or DC. Mig or tig would be a better bet for thin stuff. Mig has a shorter learning curve and down to 16 ga is fairly easy for most with .023 solid wire and gas. Down to 20 ga becomes tough though with mig.  It's doable, but takes a fair amount of practice. Tig takes a lot longer to master, but gives you a lot more control and will weld down to tinfoil if you have the right skills. ( note the time to gain skills to that level ( foil) is measured in several hundreds if not thousands of hours of practice though.) Basic tig can be done using a DC stick machine, though for thin stuff getting a unit that is infinitely adjustable vs one with taps would be a huge advantage. If you hunt around a bit, it's possible to located older dedicated tig machines for what it would cost you to buy a DC stick unit many times.A few generic thoughts... Many helms were riveted, no welding required. Silver solder/ brazing would be another simple method for attaching thin pieces like this together. If you plan to do helms, you'll want to have some decent skills with tools like a planishing hammer, english wheel etc. or really good skills at repose work either on a stump hot or shot bags cold. To me tig welding up the parts would be the "easy" part. Rounding and shaping those pieces would be a lot harder.If I was seriously looking at doing something like this, I'd be looking  for a good "old school" body work class. The guys who can form fenders and fuel tanks from flat sheet from scratch, vs the hang and bondo type classes. I think Baligh occasionally runs workshops on this sort of thing, and it's possible to find guys who still do this sort of work, though it's becoming a lost art in many places.Take a minute and add your location to your profile so we know roughly where you are located. Plenty of guys here browse CL daily, and if they know you are looking for something, they may just pass along a few deals that might be worth you looking at. I can think of a number of members here who picked up sweet machines simply because other members brought them to their attention. Also we've got a pretty good bunch of "guys" here. You may find someone local to you who is willing to help you out, or who knows of a good class local that is worth taking..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald ReaganHmm I see what you're saying. I just considered MIG or TIG out of my immediate price range right now; I'll keep poking around though. Lately I've been making pauldrons for fundamentals and grabbing more tools that I can snatch up. Unfortunately I hate working with 22 gauge steel, but it's not a bad beginning steel to work with I suppose? I mostly just have hand tools now but just picked up a jigsaw and bench grinder. I am going to be needing a planishing ball (I'm thinking an iron shotput or tow hitch?) Any suggestions on that? I'd eventually like a belt sander, welder and possibly a plasma cutter as well down the road; I'm not sure what would be the right way to go on those.  But yeah, I've been enjoying riveting pieces together, I think it's a lot of fun. I would consider the welder to be a major help when it comes to bigger pieces that could be welded together for some other projects.
Reply:If you are in Mass, you need to make the time to go to one of Zap's workshops and learn and understand what tig will do for you.I did a quick CL search using searchtempest, but didn't see anything super in tig that jumped out at me today. However you never know what may come tomorrow or the next day. I'd keep saving your pennies if this is what you plan on welding. I'd say mig is the minimum you'd want and tig would be better. Up side is since you want to weld thin material, small 110v migs are an option. You'll be limited to 1/8" and less on average, but you could use it to make a few tools using heavier steel, since the projects really wouldn't need critical strength..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Zap's workshops? Will a google search show them?I figured anything 1/8" or more wouldn't be anything I'd even be interested in. Isn't that 11 gauge? That's pretty thick stuff for my purposes. I think the versatility of a tig will be nice.
Reply:Originally Posted by CritchZap's workshops? Will a google search show them?I figured anything 1/8" or more wouldn't be anything I'd even be interested in. Isn't that 11 gauge? That's pretty thick stuff for my purposes. I think the versatility of a tig will be nice.
Reply:Zapster here occasionally invites guys from here over to where he works and does a tig clinic. He posts up the time and date in advance. Here's the thread on his most recent one he did back in April.  Others here do the same sort of thing in other areas of the country. Just keep your eyes open for when he has his next one since you are in his neck of the woods.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...-Date-and-TimeAs far as 1/8", yes 11 ga would be just about the same thing. What type of machine you need, depends greatly on what you want to do. Experience has shown though that many guys once they start welding, quickly want to expand their projects. 1/8" may sound heavy now, but 6 to 8 months from now many guys find that small machines are now limiting them. That's not always the case however. Guys who have specific projects in mind, where welding is secondary to the main project, often find they don't need a bigger machine. Car guys who just need a welder to do body work for example. You may fall into the same category. If building armor is your primary goal, than a machine that tops out at 1/8" may be all you need. You may find that you really need the ability to do thinner stuff and that's where tig would be to your advantage.I tell new guys this all the time. Take a look around and see if any community colleges or high school votech programs run night classes. Most of these are stupid cheap. Around me the night welding classes break down to about $11.50 an hour. When you add up what rod, gas materials, electric and so on would cost you, not to mention instruction, it's hard many times to see how they manage to break even. Many votech schools also offer auto body classes, and depending on the scope of the program, you may find one of those to be a big advantage as well for what you are looking to do..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Alright thanks for the suggestions. Do you know of any armoring type forums by any chance? I'd like to check out welding here and some other blacksmithing.Voc school could be a great thing for some cheap classes like you said. I'll have to poke around. This is possib;e to teach yourself all this through trial and error though right?-Thanks
Reply:It's possible to teach yourself to weld. Mig is the easiest. Tig would be more difficult, but it's not impossible. Tig you have more variables to control, so a lot of guys trying to learn on their own get frustrated because they don't realize that their issues come from changing too many variables all at once. Many times they don't even realize that they are changing something.Those that are detail oriented tend to do better than guys who just want fast results.A class however gets you where you want to go in the fastest possible time frame. Someone who knows what to do properly, looking over your shoulder can usually spot mistakes pretty easily and give you on the spot feedback as to what to change. There is a lot we can do here to help you learn with good pictures and knowing things like machine used, material thickness and settings, but some things are easiest done in person. Some things just don't translate well thru picts and text.I haven't gone looking for actual armor sites. Iforgeiron is a good blacksmithing site. I know I saw a recent thread there where someone was working on a set of armor. I bet someone there might be able to point you in the right direction if need be. There's certainly plenty of blade smiths there.You might also want to look around and see what local blacksmithing groups are available. I'm pretty sure there are a number of decent blacksmithing schools up in your neck of the woods. I've seen guys doing blacksmithing demos doing hot work who could easily do what you want by working on dishing hot steel. I watched a guy do a raised relief squirrel two moths back at our local meeting starting from a piece of flat sheet.Again while it's possible to do it on your own, I highly recommend taking at least a basic class. I'm taking my 2nd blacksmithing class this year at a local college next week. Even though most had never done any smithing before in the 1st class. I found watching the instructor closely taught me a lot about control and where exactly to hit the metal. Things I hadn't paid all that much attention to the 1st few times I'd taken the class.Also while it's a bit of a hike from where you live, The national conference of ABANA ( Artist Blacksmith Association of North America) is being held in Delaware in August. It won't surprise me to see someone there who does armor. http://www.abana.org/.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Ok thanks DSW, I suppose it'd be better if I did get some sort of training so that way I also don't blow myself up in my basement. Safety first ... I'll have to set up some area with stone or something outside with a workbench; will just be a pain in the winter.And about the local blacksmithing, that'd be something I'd really like to check out, there's too many gaps as to where to get and/ or make tools. I know people use shotputs for planishing balls or tow hitches but I haven't seen a place that sells them. There's got to be some info online where I can find out what most people do. I see people doing beautiful work with home made stakes ,etc. I should probably pick up some books as well.
Reply:If the OP is doing non critical welds on some decorative armor, I would say a scratch start TIG setup might work well for him. It will be cheap, and with a Zap clinic and a little practice he will be up and running in no time.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Originally Posted by CritchOk thanks DSW, I suppose it'd be better if I did get some sort of training so that way I also don't blow myself up in my basement. Safety first ... I'll have to set up some area with stone or something outside with a workbench; will just be a pain in the winter.And about the local blacksmithing, that'd be something I'd really like to check out, there's too many gaps as to where to get and/ or make tools. I know people use shotputs for planishing balls or tow hitches but I haven't seen a place that sells them. There's got to be some info online where I can find out what most people do. I see people doing beautiful work with home made stakes ,etc. I should probably pick up some books as well.
Reply:Damn thanks for all the help guys, these videos are awesome. Do you have to do anything to a tree stump or section of log to use it? (Seal it? etc) I wasn't aware Tig was easier/ better for indoors, to me, aside from cost TIG sounds like the way to go. However, I was on another armour forum and they recommended if I was to get only ONE torch to get an Oxy-Acetylene setup due to being able to heat/ weld/ cut metal? Thoughts on this?
Reply:In many ways your original question is still sort of biasing my answer, as I'm still thinking in terms of "stick".  I haven't really stepped back and looked at what you really want to do with a completely clear train of thought.  I've have to agree Oxy would be an advantage for heating. It's also possible to weld and braze with oxy acetylene. Oxy propane you would be limited to heating and brazing. I would say it's not a bad choice at all if you can only have one "torch".Down side of oxy fuel is that it's a lot harder to locate guys who can help you learn. In many ways it's a "dieing" art, at least as far as production work goes. Very few places teach it any more, other than OA cutting. Also while it's possible to do heavy stuff OA welding, you need some pretty hefty tips and a set of really good size cylinders, so mostly you will be limited to smaller material, not that it sounds like that will limit you greatly with what you want to do. OA is a very good way to learn the basics of tig. Much of what you are doing is similar. You just have an electric torch vs a gas one with tig, and you have a lot more control over the heat. Oxy propane removes some of the limits OA has and is good for heating things. You give up the ability to weld with it though. I've been thinking of converting one of my OA sets over to Oxy Propane simply for heating metal and bending. That would give me a cheaper option for pinpoint heating vs using OA over using my forge.Don't fall into the trap of getting one of those tiny kits however like Home Depot and others sell, especially if you want to use a rosebud to heat things. You'll want at least a 75 cf acetylene cylinder and a matching 80 to 100 cf Oxy cylinder, if not bigger. You can locate a decent set of regs and torches for about $200 new, plus about $280 for the 2 cylinders combined. However as with electric arc welders, use will save you money. I've seen fairly complete kits of torch and cylinders with regs and hose going for $250 or so. Just be careful that the cylinders you get used are not rental/leased. Best bet if you are unsure is to meet the seller at the place you plan to exchange them, and swap them 1st. You'll loose the gas that may be left in the cylinders, but you'll know that they are willing to exchange them for you. If not, the cylinders aren't worth more than what ever gas is in the cylinder when you get it.Plenty of info here on this subject if you search and read.As far as the log/stump, depends. In that video where he's doing the work cold, you can see he's hollowed out that stump. For doing hot work, like in the spoon demo, you don't have to do anything. I soak mine some to help limit the charring, but that's not really required. Cold work they also do on leather bags filled with lead shot,Boatloads of Youtube videos on metal shaping and blacksmithing. Some really good. Some really crappy. I can send you some links to some good guys who do blacksmithing videos, but can't help much on the cold work. That's not really my thing, though at some point I wouldn't mind learning some of that..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:By all means you can send me anything you'd like! I think the OA would be helpful for some heating since I don't have a forge. I'm also surrounded by woods so I'm not sure a forge would be a great idea. Thoughts on that?
Reply:Forges are easy. Plenty of guys here have made them and use them. You can find both my builds here. Here's the coal one, but I did use my welder.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?146321-Coal-forgeYou don't HAVE to have a welder to do one however. Plenty have been done without using one using nuts and bolts for assembly for example. Iforgeiron is full of simple brake drum forges that don't require welding. You need a brake drum, some pipe fittings for the air connections a small blower ( hair dryer will work in a pinch) and preferably something to hold the drum. I've even seen the stands built out of wood, with dirt being used to insulate the hot drum from the wooden table.My gas forge needs some work. In it's next reincarnation, I'll use a different type of fire brick that insulates better, or kaol wool so I don't waste as much gas bringing the unit up to temp. There are a number of small gas forges that are reasonably priced. Down side of most gas forges is that you are fairly limited in the size of the piece it will heat. Up side is you get an even heat and don't have to constantly work the fire. Building a gas forge can be done without welding either, but most non welded ones are typically small knife forges built off freon canisters.I run my forge in a fairly wooded area. Granted I have a decently clear area with stone to set up on, but I make more sparks stick welding than I do forging with maybe the exception of forge welding where the flux spatters. I use coal, but charcoal is another option. Bituminous coal is best, but I've made do with a bunch of anthracite I was given when a friend cleaned out the coal bunker in their old house. I won't get more however. I'll be sure to hunt down bituminous since it's a lot easier to work with.Again common sense goes a long ways. In the fall, I did out the leaf blower and clear the area 1st. I also have a hose handy should some leaves blow thru and get hit with hot iron I'm working with ( minor worry really). At worst I have a few buckets of water for quenching tools and steel always on hand, and I always have a good fire extinguisher around any time I work with hot metal. I have both an old style water one you charge with compressed air ( salvage yard find) as well as a full size ABC dry chemical one. I learned my lesson years ago when I almost burned an old truck to the ground because of a backfire lighting up the air filter and I'd pulled out my fire extinguisher from my normal truck while cleaning earlier that day, and couldn't get any of the hoses to work when I needed them most... Since then I always make sure I've got an extinguisher on hand at all times. Most times I have multiple ones available.I'll dig thru my files and shoot you a pm with a few guys who you can look at on Youtube. I'll just do one of their vids and you can pull the rest up yourself..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Pretty awesome forge you made! I've seen the old truck brake drum ones they're just a little small but atleast maybe I can fit more in that then a gas forge. I do have a coal stove in my basement but there's no way I'm firing that thing up and constantly opening/ closing it in the winter and it's definitely not running in the summer time . How my property is set up I'd have to lay down stone or do a small area in concrete or something in order for it to be a bit safer. Or maybe wheel it to my driveway when I want to do hot metal work. There's a lot of woods that can catch around me. You seem to have a great setup with it being on the stone. I'd eventually like to build a moderate size work area outside about the size of a shed to start with. Shouldn't be too hard to do and will give me a place where I can do everything instead of using my basement. If I could build a forge within it that'd be something to consider with a small chimney and lots of room for the doors to keep air coming in and out. I've got so many ideas it's just the budget that hurts lol.
Reply:A brake drum is probably larger than the fire pot on my forge size wise. In general you don't need to heat the whole piece. I've seen 3' x 3' sheets hammered into complex patterns using a forge with a fire pot my size. You just place the area you want to heat over the center of the fire. You just move the piece around to heat the area you are working with. The rest just gets cold before you can work it anyways when the material is that thin. I bet anything bigger than say the size of a small plate/ saucer will cool long before you can start to beat on it. Here look at page 3 of the PABA blacksmithing groups newsletter. You can see the squirrel one member did as a demo at the last meeting. Fire pot on the coal forge there at the demo is roughly the same size as mine is. In the picts he's working over the hollows in the swage block, or over the hardie hole in the anvil vs a stump. That squirrel was done in about 2 hours at the demo, maybe less.http://nebula.wsimg.com/50abf6d7cfc6...&alloworigin=1.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:That's pretty awesome, does he draw his design (squirrel) on the back and/or front somehow in chalk before he does it or is it all free hand? I've got so many ideas  for etch type plate armour. Also what's your take on this? This demonstrator simply uses a propane torch; I'm just unsure what the deal with the block is? What kind of stone is that? I could probably swing that for now but it's probably not the most efficient burning through propane like that. Granted he's using pretty light gauge steel as well.
Reply:I think he chalked out the design 1st on the piece, but it might have simply been for the demo for illustration. Chalk doesn't hold up well in the fire.I'll watch that whole video later when I have time and answer your question then. I watched the 1st 6 or 7 minutes so far. I can tell you he is using a " rounding" or "domed" hammer to do that work so far. If you look really close when he lays down the hammer on the anvil at one point, you can clearly see the curved face, vs flat face typical of most hammers. I took a grinder/sander to several yard sale hammers and rounded the faces so I have some different "rounding hammers to work with as well as flat ones.I'll have to dig a bit. Some where I saw a good video that explains how different faces on a hammer work. The old standby is to use clay as a demo material. It behaves just like steel does when you hit it. A straight peen acts like your hand if you chop the clay. The material moves to the side vs the long ways. A round hammer tends to push metal in all directions, but if you angle the hammer  vs straight down, you can direct more of that movement in one direction..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by CritchAlso what's your take on this? This demonstrator simply uses a propane torch; I'm just unsure what the deal with the block is? What kind of stone is that? I could probably swing that for now but it's probably not the most efficient burning through propane like that.
Reply:Oh I meant to mention the stake he's using at the anvil with the rolled edge is exactly what I use to do ladles. It's a really great example of what I do to dish them out. Mine doesn't have the really nice rolled edge yet. I just filed a radius on a straight piece of pipe until I can get one forged the way I want..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:That's a lot of great info. I might try the propane forge with my propane torch like in this video until I can get an oxy acetylene rig. The insulating fire brick seems like it'd be easy to get a couple pieces and do that. Probably cost me a lot in propane usage though. You mentioned hammers, I definetly need to get more (im missing a rubber mallet, rounded hammers an flat hanmers. I have only different size ball peins) and some swage type tools. Unfortunately for me I haven't found an anvil for less then 600$ and up. I'm going to be takin a section of tree to use in the meantime. Did you like the video?
Reply:They sell hose kits designed to hook up small gas grills that use those tiny propane cylinders to 20 lb propane tanks. You usually find them in the camping section. In a pinch, I've used one on a torch like that guy had. If I was going to do a burner like that, that's the way I would go. Propane is cheap that way. They also used to sell an adapter than allowed you to refill small cylinders from the 20 lb ones. A buddy of mine refills his small cook top cylinders that way. Results though can vary. Some times the seals don't hold well after they have been used and the cylinders leak slowly when not attached. He usually chucks those, or in a pinch, just keeps that one attached until he's run it out.Insulating fire brick isn't all that easy to source local. Most will have the standard type of fire brick. You can locate it online from various blacksmithing suppliers. The other place I've heard that some times has them is commercial guys who reline boilers. I'll try and remember later to did a bit thru my blacksmithing links and see if I can't dig up a supplier of the insulating bricks for you.As far as hammers, I'd start looking at every flea market, yard sale and used tool place you can. I'm always on the hunt for tooling or things I can modify, as well as original "antiques". Most hammers are flat, but a grinder with some grinding disks and sanding pads will reshape them. My 1st rounding hammer was a 3 lb sledge that I ground flat on one face and domed on the other. You'd probably also have a fair amount of use for body hammers of different shapes. Normally I'd suggest staying away from Harbor Freight, but you can pick up some inexpensive hammers there that would get you started if nothing else.As far as an anvil, start checking with everyone you know. My last anvil came from a guy the neighbor of one of my customers knew. The neighbor knew I was into blacksmithing and knew his friend had an old anvil, so he hooked me up with him. I'm supposed to be getting another one from a buddy who has had it in his garage since they sold off his fathers business when he passed away. Most blacksmithing groups have tailgate areas at their local meets. At my groups last meeting there were at least 6 anvils up for sale reasonably. Also many blacksmiths "collect" anvils. Most guys I know buy up any inexpensive anvil they locate. They know they can sell them to new guys for at least what they paid for them, That's how I got my small rivet forge. Some one sold it to a blacksmith friend of mine. He didn't need it, but the cost was so cheap he wasn't going to pass it up. He knew I was looking for a small forge to do demos, so he sold it to me last year for what it cost him.Anvils also don't HAVE to be shaped like the London pattern most are familiar with. A good size hunk of steel will do just fine. I've seen plenty of knife guys working on a simple rectangular block of steel. Forklift tines are supposed to be decent as well..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWWhile DC stick welding has advantages, it's not "required". Plenty of stuff has been built with Ac only stick machines, and Ac only units are usually dirt cheap. Around me used AC units go from $50-150 on CL regularly and I see plenty at yard sales for less. These are a good way for most people who aren't quite sure if this is for them to get in and try it inexpensively. My 1st machine was a used AC only Craftsman machine and I sold it to a kid here who was learning a few years back for what I paid for it. I bet it's still going strong. If you can find an AC/DC unit in your price range, by all means get it, but don't feel that you  MUST have one. You can always upgrade later, and most used units, if you shop smart, can be sold later for little if any loss. As far as rods, while many rods like 7018 run much better on DC, there are plenty of rods that do very well on AC, so having an Ac only unit as a hobbyist won't handicap you too much. Rods like 7014, 6011 or 6013 can do most home projects the average user will do just fine. 7014 is one of my favorite rods to teach with and run. If you can find them, 7024, the flat position only version of 7014 is dead easy to use and makes beautiful welds and can make most beginners look like a pro with a bit of practice if the settings are right.
Reply:Flea markets are something I need to regularly attend. I'm thinking there are many things I could use for planishing and like you said hammers since they're about $30+ new. You mentioned you usually stay away from Harbor Freight but I wanted to ask what your guys' thoughts are on the Throatless Shear from Harbor Freight? I cannot afford a beverly immediately and I would like a shear sooner then later. Finding an anvil/ steel and the insulating firebrick is going to be a challenge but well worth it. I wanted to know what the story with O/A is. It's $200 for a kit generally like a regulator, hoses, torch tip and sparker. Like this: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...3934_200413934How much are the cylinders usually? What's a good size cylinder? Where do you typically fill them? How fast does O/A get used up? Also on another forum someone brought up "forge welding" to me and I'm looking more into that to see how it could be incorporated with an O/A torch. This might be another awesome method for me to try and learn with.
Reply:That little kit is fine if all you need to do is solder a few joints, cut a bolt or two, but not much more."Problem" with acetylene is that you have to say within the 1/7th rule. That says that you don't use up more than 1/7th the volume of the cylinder within an hour. Exceed that and you start having issues. 1st issue is that acetylene is "contained dissolved within acetone in a porous  medium in the cylinder. Withdraw the gas too fast, and you pull the acetone out. The acetone is hard on the seals in the reg among other things. Also the acetone helps stabilize the acetylene. Withdraw too much and the acetone can become unstable. Even the smallest tips exceed the flow rate for the 1/7th rule, so you are very limited in how long you can work even with tiny tips. Big tips, don't even bother.The other issue with those tiny torches is that the valves on the regs don't fit bigger cylinders. You can buy adapters, but they can be a pain.A "B" size 40 cf cylinder of acetylene is find for light welding on sheet metal. However it's too small for larger tips or rosebuds. ( it also uses it's own unique valve...) A 75 cf cylinder is good for general work, but even then the smallest rosebud is too big to do more than very short use. Bigger cylinders are nice, but not practical for most hobbyists.As far as gas use, this page lists approximate flow rates for various size tips.http://dennisalbert.com/Welding/WeldingTipGuide.htmIf you look at the chart. the far right column says acet scfh. That's cubic feet per hour. Note the smallest tip is rated at 1 to 2 CFH. the small cylinder in that Northern kit is an MC cylinder, or 10 cf. using the 1/7th rule, you shouldn't draw any more than a bit over 1 cf per hour, so if you max even that small tip, you exceed that amount. That will also give you a rough approximation on how long your gas will last. if you are using 2 cf per hour/ based on tip size, a 10 cf cylinder would last 5 hours, but you'd exceed the withdrawal limits. Heating/welding you use acetylene and O2 at about 1 to 1. When cutting you use acetylene to O2 at about 1 CF acetylene to 5 CF of O2.A 75 cf acetylene and 80 to 100 cf O2 is a good "hobby" size set of cylinders. As far as where to get them filled, that would be your local welding supply, but some other places also offer exchanges ( one of my old time local hardware stores exchanges cylinders for example). Cost, I think my last flyer from my LWS had both cylinders ( 75 cf and 80 cf) for a bit under $300. You can also keep your eyes open for used cylinders on CL. Be aware that you need to make sure if you get used cylinders where ever you take them for exchange will accept them. MAny places are quite picky about this. There are dozens and dozens of threads here on OA discussing all of this. I'd suggest going thru a bunch of them to cover a lot of the fine points I'm glossing over in this quick over view.Now to complicate things, you can also use oxy propane... You can't weld with propane, but you don't have the withdrawl issues, so you can use whatever size tip you want. The fuel gas fitting and hose material is different, so if you want to go propane, think about this up front, though you can convert later. When you get to really big industrial size acetylene cylinders, there are 2 different valve fittings. One is the same fitting used on 20 lb and larger propane cylinders. I've been thinking of converting one of my OA kits over to propane simply for blacksmithing. That would let me heat either with large tips or a small rosebud easily. I have other ways to weld, so the fact I can't weld with propane isn' a big deal for me...Here's a good video of a guy blacksmithing using a torch and special valve that shuts the torch off and relights it as needed.Forge welding... That isn't covered a lot here so I'll cover that. 1st many gas forges don't get hot enough to forge weld. 2nd the brick and Kaolwool liners break down when exposed to the high temps and welding flux ( borax) used. If you get a gas forge that will get up to welding temps, expect to be relining the forge regularly if you do a lot of forge welding. Some put "disposable" bricks in the floor of the forge to try and cut down the number of times they need to rebuild. The idea is when the sacrificial bricks break down, you pull them out and replace them vs the forge liner. Next issue is that welding temps are just under the temps needed to burn steel. With large pieces, if you exceed the temp slightly, and burn the outside, it's not a huge deal. With thin stuff, the piece is track just about the instant it starts to burn. Next issue is that with thin stuff, it cools super fast. You need to get the pieces both out of the forge and position them at the anvil and strike them while they are still at welding heat. The anvil will act as a giant heat sink and you'll loose your welding heat, almost as soon as it hits the anvil. Can it be done, yes. But guys can juggle while riding a unicycle on the high wire as well. Doesn't mean everyone can, or that it's a practical way to learn juggling for a new guy...Mark Aspery has a few videos on his youtube page on forge welding. Look at what it takes to do that, and remember he's working with steel that holds it's heat a lot longer. Compare how long the heat lasts with him, to how long the heat lasted in that armoring video you posted up above. Traditionally a smith would be assisted by several helpers. You'd have one or two to pull out the parts and position them, then you'd have the smith who would do the weld, and possibly others to help strike. That really isn't doable for most. also remember when you beat the material to forge weld, you need to either support the welded area, or shape the area after welding. You can't just make 2 pieces 100% and then tack them together easily..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan