Dual Shield Q's

admin

I would like to config my set up for dual shield 75/25 mix welding. I would like to know which is a good wire (brand and number) and size to use. I have read the search and they talk about T91 but it sounded like this may be a special application wire, I'm in need of good practice wire. The welder is a X-treme 12vs suitcase with a Tregasskiss Roughneck gun. This maybe a Homer question but here goes. Are the diameters the same for solid and flux core or is it like pipe some times they are inside versus outside?
Reply:Diameter on the wire is the OD, doesn't matter if it is solid wire, or fluxcore, or metalcore, or dualshield, or whatnot.The size of the wire needed will depend mostly on the thickness being welded, how many passes you can live with having to make, and the amp output capacity of the machine.
Reply:Ok, first of all, the diameters are the same.  They are measured by the Outside Diameter.  You will probably want an all-position wire, so you are going to be looking for an E71T-1 wire.  I have only ever welded with Hobart wires, but you may be limited to what you LWS sells.  As far as size goes, I am not familiar with your machine, but probably an .045 would be a good bet...maybe 1/16.  If you would like the names of some wires, Trimark Triple 7, Hobart Excel Arc 71 (Tozzi has some great pics of his welds with that wire in the pics section).  Good luck!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by wielroI would like to config my set up for dual shield 75/25 mix welding. I would like to know which is a good wire (brand and number) and size to use. I have read the search and they talk about T91 but it sounded like this may be a special application wire, I'm in need of good practice wire. The welder is a X-treme 12vs suitcase with a Tregasskiss Roughneck gun. This maybe a Homer question but here goes. Are the diameters the same for solid and flux core or is it like pipe some times they are inside versus outside?
Reply:Originally Posted by wielroI would like to config my set up for dual shield 75/25 mix welding. I would like to know which is a good wire (brand and number) and size to use. I have read the search and they talk about T91 but it sounded like this may be a special application wire, I'm in need of good practice wire. The welder is a X-treme 12vs suitcase with a Tregasskiss Roughneck gun. This maybe a Homer question but here goes. Are the diameters the same for solid and flux core or is it like pipe some times they are inside versus outside?
Reply:Originally Posted by reddoggooseAs mentioned a good wire for you to try is a Trimark 777 or Hobart Excel Arc 71. Both are AWS E70T-1 class wires. They will have good tensile strength and can be welded in all positions, however never run a gas shielded flux core downhill.They are available in sizes from .045 to 1/16. For an .045 wire with 75/25 gas run 22-24V and about 250-350 IPM for wire speed on up hill welds. For flat position just bring your volts and amps up accordingly.
Reply:Thanks for all the great info I included a photo of the equipment the black suitcase on the black low table is the Miller 12vs X-treme wire feed. I can will need to go to the local LWS and purchase I will be on vacation for about a week but as soon as I get set up I will post up some pics thanks again.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldrwomnActually the wire are E71T-1EA 71 is Avaliable in .035, .045, .052, and 1/16Triple 7 is .045, .052, and 1/16vert up is 23-27 volts and 120-380ipm for both wires in the .045 size
Reply:Originally Posted by reddoggooseYou may notice that I corrected that in my last post (had a couply techy issues wouldn't let me edit) and FYI 120 IPM is too low of a wire speed for .045 you should be at 250 IPM minimum to reach enough amperage to obtain the correct transfer. 23-27 voltage range is for 100% CO2. For 75/25 you need to drop about 2 volts lower than 100% CO2 voltages for a given amperage.
Reply:I would have to say Select-Arc is the best I have ever usedThey have options of wire for ANYTHING you need to weld.  Very very smooth running wire.  All position.The weld pictures are worth a thousand words.  See here.http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread...light=shipyard
Reply:Thanks again for more info. I am a novice and I provided the picture which I believe you can click on it and it will get bigger, this should give you an idea of the equipment I am using at home. This thread started as a result of my previous nights welding lab projects. I was given a booth with dual shield set up and some how I hit the settings right on and had a great night. The community college has some very nice high end equipment. I was using a Hobart power supply with a Hobart feeder the lab has a bottle rack and you can custom blend you gas what a blast. When I go to the local LWS I am a newb and so I may not ask or give the best description of what I am up to. So I thought I would ask you guys and gals to point me in the right direction and we are getting there, I was running 24 volts and about 250 IPM on 1/2 inch mild steel I could not tell what wire because it was on a large open spool. I didn't know if could run the flux wire thru the same liner, contact tip and if I would need to change my feed roller to knurled grooves from the hard wire set up. Again many thanks for your patience and knowledge.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldrwomnYour other post must have appeared while I was busy typing mine because it was not there before.  I am not sure what your experience with these particular wires is, but I happen to work with them everyday and am fully aware of the operating parameters (both on the high and low ends).  Also, it is not necessary do drop voltage when you switch to CO2 unless your lack of welding ability prevents you from keeping up with the puddle.  I mean that in the nicest way possible of course
Reply:Well seeing that 100% CO2 gives you a completely different penetration profile than 25% CO2, then yes, you do need to adjust.  It runs way hotter and deeper.
Reply:The argon content changes several things, one of the most noticable is the type of transfer in the arc. CO2 will give deeper penetration, but argon will help attain a spray transfer and better wetting whle maintaining good penetration. It is especially preferred when flux core welding of pipe.Arguing with a Welding Engineer is like wrestling with a pig... after a while you realize the pig likes it
Reply:Originally Posted by reddoggooseMaybe you ought to rethink how aware you are of the operating parameters. You have it backwards. You don't drop voltage for 100% CO2, you use 1-2 volts lower when switching from CO2 to C25. Take a look at the manufacturers specs for 100%  CO2 compared to C25, and you'll see that recommended voltages are lower for C25. By the way I do weld with them every day also, not to mention that I am a welding engineer employed by these manufacturers. Who do you think weld tests the wires before they go to market. I know exactly how these wire run. Lower voltages on higher argon gases are recommended for a reason, has nothing to do with ability its called ionization potential.
Reply:I think I know who I work for better than you do. If you understood the corporate stucture you would know better. I am sure that in your months of experience you have gained far more insight into arc physics than the companies who acutally manufacture the products.  You mention that it is necessary to change wirespeed when changing gases. What do you think is happening? The amperages goes up or down with wire speed. As the amperage changes so does the voltage to some degree. (yes even on constant voltage machines). Its called a volt amp curve and every welding machine in the world has one. Some have more or less slope which will change the relation of volts to amps on the curve, giving machines that have larger changes in voltage for a given change in current than others. More amps will start to push your voltage down. Less amps will start to bring your voltage up. So essentially you are still changing your voltage indirectly, only now you are increasing you heat input up and down by using amperage. Its much easier to achieve the same result with less heat input by changing your voltage. Thats why when you have too much wire your arc length gets shorter and longer when you have too little wire. Your arc length is essentially your voltage.While your scratching your head over all that, maybe you should do a little research into the ionization potential of different gases and their effect on the weld arc.Last edited by reddoggoose; 08-09-2007 at 09:51 AM.Arguing with a Welding Engineer is like wrestling with a pig... after a while you realize the pig likes it
Reply:Ok, so let me get this straight, you are in Wisconsin....Is miller starting to develop tubular wires?  Last time I checked, Hobart and Trimark were still making their wires in Ohio.As for the voltage and wirespeed issue....Yes, the machine does make voltage adjustments when the wirespeed is altered, but not the two volts that you called for earlier.I may just be a Dumbass Welder, but I have yet to meet an engineer that could do more than just talk about welding.
Reply:Once again you don't understand the corporate structure. The amperage can make make the two volts change in voltage. Like I just tried to explain to you it depends on the on the slope of the power source. Regardless, the ionization from an argon rich gas will increase the length of the arc. This being said, in order to have the same arc length with a C25 as 100% CO2 it is necessary to reduce the arc voltage.As for your comment about engineers, I cut my teeth in welding shops. Been in it my whole life. I've worked on the shop floors for more years than I care to count. There's nothing you can teach me about welding. If you have nothing more intellegent to say than insults, then maybe you should stop while your ahead.Arguing with a Welding Engineer is like wrestling with a pig... after a while you realize the pig likes it
Reply:Okay, let us agree to disagree...no more argumentative posts.Back on topic...John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Very interesting exchange of ideas,in the weld lab with the manifold and mixing capabilities we were encouraged to correlate the changes in the gas mixtures with respect to weld profile. We don't go beyond visual evaluation but it you can see a very significant difference and I can see where you could use it in specific applications. The exercise also provides expanded thinking. The discussion of speed and volts is also of great value.
Reply:Hey reddoggoose,Got a question about shielding gases for the welding engineer.  This isn't a total thread hijack, because the topic of CO2 and C25 and MIG and dual-shield and ionization potential were already raised here.   Straight Argon for MIG/GMAW on steel, yes or no?  And why?All the info I've found so far always says no, you need -some- active gas in the mix for steel GMAW, whether CO2 or O2.  Could be as low as 1%-2%, but all I've see is that some active gas should be in with the Argon for GMAW on steel.TIG/GTAW uses pure inert gas(es), otherwise the tungsten would be toast.  And the fillers for GMAW and GTAW on steel -could- be the same.   So why does GMAW on steel -need- that active gas in the mix?
Reply:Moonrise,Comparing TIG to MIG is very difficult. The reason for this is that MIG, obviously is a consumable electrode process and TIG is not, so it's not an even comparison. The differences comes from filler metal transfer. A MIG welder transfers filler metal across the arc in an ionized gas called a plasma stream. During MIG welding the filler is passed through the plasma stream to the work piece. It takes a certain amount of energy from the arc to ionize the gas. Gases like argon require little energy while gases like CO2 and Helium require more energy which require slightly higher voltages. Because off this, the ionization potentials effects on bead profiles will change and welding parameters will also change as the type of tranfer is effected. This is why different types of transfer modes for the same wire classification are possible. When adding CO2 to the plasma stream in a LOW CURRENT SHORT CIRCUIT transfer, the penetration profile will become deeper and narrower. As argon content, voltage and amperage parameters increase the transfer mode will start to approach that of a spray transfer. With the higher currents and voltages the higher argon gases will now give deeper penetration than the high 100% CO2 gas. This is why SPRAY transfer should be used on thicker materials. As argon percentage increases while used in a SHORT CIRCUIT transfer, the penetration profile will become shallow and wider, with less penetration. This is why manufacturers recommend 100% CO2 or C25 for low current short circuit applications, and spray transfer for high argon mixes. Other additions such as small amounts of oxygen are added in some mixes to help in bead wetting, but this also changes the penetration profile to have a wide cap with a small deep finger penetrating the basemetal. This could cause problems with lack of fusion in parts having poor fitups. TIG has no metal tranfer though the arc, resulting in poor unstable arc conditions if a CO2 gas is used. Once again, due to the higher ionization potential and lower voltages used on TIG.More info on this can be found in the AWS Volume 2 Welding Handbook.This is acutally a fairly complicated subject and a I left a lot of detail out so I hope it makes sense.Last edited by reddoggoose; 08-09-2007 at 01:51 PM.Arguing with a Welding Engineer is like wrestling with a pig... after a while you realize the pig likes it
Reply:At work I primarily use .045" Trimark Tripple7 with C25 gas. I have used both smooth and knurled drive rolls on our four roll feeders (mostly 60 series Millers, with a couple 70's).  We have a few two roll S-22A feeders, these need a knurled drive roll with the core wire to get a consistent feed.I work in a job shop, and we have the ability to position the vast majority of the work we do, so I primarily weld in the 1F, 2F, and 1G-rolled positions.  Most of the parts I work on are between 3/8" and 2" thick.  I generally weld at 27-28v 230-240a, about 400ipm.  If I'm working a part under 3/8" or anything out of position, I'll usually start with 25v 200a and adjust from there, within limits of the WPS.  Extremely low spatter, easy to chip slag (if it hasn't peeled off itself).Before the Tripple7 we used a Frontiarc E71T-1M wire.  I never had a problem with the wire, but most of the welders in the shop complained about it.  I do remember that it ran smooth at about 1-2v lower than the Tripple7 (had to move up 1-2v when we switched from the Frontiarc to the Tripple7).  Had a chance to run a few beads with one of the ESAB Dualshield X-Series wires.  Didn't really get a chance to get confortable with it, but it was very smooth.  Left a much thicker slag covering than the Tripple7.Couple welds I made with the Tripple7, 2F. Attached ImagesLast edited by Static-XJ; 08-11-2007 at 07:34 PM.
Reply:Hey Static, those are some really nice welds!!!
Reply:Static now thats some welding thanks for the run down on the settings I plan on getting to class on Monday evening and then practice on Wed. Thanks again for the pictures and info.Hey guys, I have my 3g and 4g welding certificates and my new boss is telling me that I am not certified to weld dual shield..... does that sound right to you?
Reply:Are your 3g and 4g certs run with dual shield?
Reply:Originally Posted by wielroThanks for all the great info I included a photo of the equipment the black suitcase on the black low table is the Miller 12vs X-treme wire feed. I can will need to go to the local LWS and purchase I will be on vacation for about a week but as soon as I get set up I will post up some pics thanks again.
Reply:resurrection of an ancient thread, he hasn't been on in nearly a yearDynasty 200DXPassport plus w/ spoolmate 100victor 315c oxy/(act and prop)Miller digital elitemilwaukee power tools