Torn between Thermal Arc 186 and Syncrowave 210

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So I am getting ready to buy a new welder here on Friday and I have narrowed my choices between the thermal arc 186 and millers new syncrowave 210. I have compared both and well the syncro offers 10 more amps, the duty cycles seem to be the same on both machines at lower settings ( comparing charts). The price difference is another thing, I have an account and great relationship with my LWS which will get me any machine I want tax free, TA 186 with foot pedal $1,875 /  miller syncrowave 210 $2,550. I have always been a miller guy but the thermal arc sounds appealing since its ready and complete with all the features listed for the machine, as for the 210 I would have to pay $200 for expandable features which should come fully featured with the machine. July 1st miller released the 210 with a mig option ( Spool Gun ) but I would have to shell out 3 grand just for that and I already have a spool gun. If I went with TA I would also save nearly $700 which would go to consumables, torch upgrades and a DIY Cooler.  I don't care about portability but I do like that the 210 is mvp just like my spectrum and 211 and I have used 115v in rare occasions, I do want to use the machine for stick welding and the miller seems to be more geared for that then the T/A.  I could go on and on but its eating at me and the money is burning a hole in my pocket so I am confused. I have been having wet dreams about tig welding and even dreamed I had 5k and I purchased a dynasty 200dx .  I do want a machine to grow into so either machine will do. I guess whats kicking my butt is who do I part the cash to and since I never had to use warranty on a miller machine , my loyalty leans with miller but the expandable cards seem ridiculous to me and seems like more of a computer then a darn welder.  I could have a dynasty 200DX by September  but $3,400 for a bare machine is a bit of overkill for me and the machine would probably die before it could pay for itself, working for peanuts. Other Options,Oh man this is long, Can you understand my pain now ?   Anyways I did find a used dynasty 200 sd in Denver,CO  but the guy is selling it for $2,750 and only includes a cables and adapter and nothing else. Warranty I think not and would still need torch and consumables. I was also looking into the everlast and longevity higher end welders but I never been much of a gambler, call it bad luck. I did also look into a HTP invertig 221 but my credit cards only have a 1,900 limit combined ( No Debit) and if I needed warranty I would have to ship the machine out. I have dealt with Diana and the customer service is great. I feel if I buy a welder anywhere else it would be a kick in the nuts to my LWS guys. Invertig Might still be an option if they will take a cashiers check like I sent to Uncle Sam this year.Current setup, I do small repairs and nothing to complicated, I usually stick weld steel 1/4 +, mig weld 3/16 - 14 gauge and tig weld 1/8 and thinner materials. I also use a spoolmate for thicker aluminum with preheat, I do have a wards powr kraft 250 with hi frequency that I use for tig welding steel tubing and aluminum atv cases backed with a copper spoon. Majority of my work are broken atv cases because my customers are small town folk with little to no money so I ain't into it for the big bucks .  I think I have outgrown my current tig setup, I have no remote amperage controls on my hi freq setup and usually have to stop and cool down on atv cases because the aluminum gets hot to quick. On steel its no problem because I have a small back up harbor freight 130amp tig that I made a foot pedal for using a cry baby wah wah guital pedal. I also do a lot of prototyping which I can't speak of but it involves making molds for casting resin work so I work with scrap metal, clean metal, aluminum, cast iron, stainless, brass, copper and everything varies from 3" down to 24 gauge thickness material no tig over 3/16.Right about now you must be thinking I am crazy and just pick one already but my purpose in posting is to hear from other members who have dealt with these machines and their experience's with both companies on customer service. I know the syncrowave 210 is new to the market and I have read gamble & weldermike posts on their machines and early on problems. In other words help me decided  I know the ultimate decision falls upon me but seriously need some input to tip me off in one direction or another.Thank you for viewing my post and sorry for any typos ahead of time, Still half asleep thinking about the miller dream.
Reply:take a cold shower. grow up and buy the miller..simpleface all times with a positive mental attitude,then and only then will you have done your best.
Reply:Buy what you can afford. If you want the Miller.......hold off and save and buy it!!!
Reply:WTF is this mess.Buy the 186 if you like it, you saved a lot of money. If you don't return it and get something else. The 210 with all the options is a joke, at that point might as well get a dynasty.And where did they release a mig option for 3k for the 210 syncrowave? That makes ZERO sense. There also is no place for a water cooler on the 210.And you don't want to gamble with everlast or longevity...!?!?!? where do you think the 186 is made? Why don't you call your credit card or bank and ask them to raise your limit so you can purchase a 221 for that transaction.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:T/A got bought out.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleAnd where did they release a mig option for 3k for the 210 syncrowave? That makes ZERO sense. There also is no place for a water cooler on the 210.
Reply:Originally Posted by NinjaRayMiller Stock# 951616  Tig Stick Mig ( Spool Gun) Yea sorry for the mess but trying to be as specific as possible. I won't start an argument over everlast and longevity. I do know if anything happens with the 210 or the 186 I can drop them off at my LWS and they take care of everything.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonSure enough! That is pretty neat!I gather that you are a tig novice? If so, you could not learn faster on any other tig than the Sync210. It has a Diversion style panel. I like it alot. Now that it has a mig interface option as well, you can't go wrong.
Reply:i just got the ta186 and i'm lovin' it too bad as my trini partner would say.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeT/A got bought out.
Reply:$3400 will almost get you an HTP Invertig221 with the dual-voltage option AND a water cooler, and it's one bad machine.  Of course I'm biased, but I'm sure others will agree.  They take credit card, check, whatever, so long as it clears.  Who cares if people have little to no money for repairs on ATVs?  If they live above their means, it's their problem not yours.  When things need to get fixed, things need to get fixed.  I say let them walk.  People lived in small towns WITHOUT ATVs for millennium. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Originally Posted by NinjaRayI have only been tig welding for a couple of years now but I am not a pro by any means, I almost picked up a diversion 180 a couple weeks back on craigslist. Guy was really pissy so I just passed. I emailed miller sales support earlier and asked more questions about the mig option so hopefully I get some info on that before Friday. Thank You for the reply.
Reply:I added a water cooler to a syncrowave 200. It is not a problem. It would be the same for the 210.The 210 is just dumbed down even more.Just push the ON button and weld. No choices. Just let the computer decide everything.A TIG machine without water cooling would NOT work for production welding even if Miller says it is rated for Light industrial use. Depends on what you call production really.If you really want to manufacture a product  and have a lot of welding or long welds, you need a FULL Syncrowave 250 with water cooling.Last edited by Donald Branscom; 07-22-2014 at 11:38 AM.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Originally Posted by docwelderi just got the ta186 and i'm lovin' it too bad as my trini partner would say.
Reply:[QUOTE=Donald Branscom;4447671]"TRINI" partner??? Whats that?A person from Trinidad
Reply:Resale value is a non issue.. $1600.00 machine probably goes for 1500.00 used Thermal (Tweco) prices keep going up like the Miller.The 186 will lay just as nice of weld beads as a Miller 210. Just all up to you as a user to make that happen. Demo both machines, and make up your own mind what you like best.. If you feel comfortable buying the Miller, then pull the trigger. Same with the Thermal-arc.. (Tweco now) Shoot might as well demo a Standard Lincoln PT-225 while you are at it. It welds nice enough, and has decent power at 230 amps output ac.. It can get the puddle wet on small piece of 3/8 aluminum. Not too bad really..Esab/Lorch ET-220iEsab 160i caddyThermal LM-200 Lincoln feedersThermal Pee-Wee 85sThermal 60i- 3phase /RPC powered (Beast)Thermal Drag-gun 35CINE 1500 Klutch 140i
Reply:Alright so I called my LWS guy all set to buy the Tweco 186 and asked about the 210 TIG/MIG package, He told me he could beat internet pricing on the syncrowave 210 TIG/MIG package plus no tax for a grand total of $2,900. He was going to order it today and I told him to hold off until Monday, That will give me the weekend to clean up shop and ponder a little more.  I know its a hell of a deal because as time goes by, I am sure that price will go up on the 210.  Also learned Tweco has a $100 rebate, $1,775 after rebate. I will update on my final decision. Thanks for the input guys.
Reply:I think i paid $2240 for mine.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Or wait for the new tweco machines to come out...Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeI think i paid $2240 for mine.
Reply:It's a spool gun addition. Curious to see how well it works though.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:So I finally made up my mind, Went with the Tweco ArcMaster 186 and it should be coming in Wednesday or Thursday afternoon. I will be getting a $100 rebate on the machine so I am happy about that. Now I have enough money left over for a nicer welding helmet, torches, accessories and even a tig cooler if I go that route. I spoke with miller and tweco reps all day before coming to my decision . On another note , Miller had a 45 minute wait time on the phone and Tweco guy called me 2 minutes after emailing him. I have been looking at the flex loc tig kits  - wp20 & wp17 along with a stubby kit.  Any suggestions ?  I will post some pictures soon.
Reply:Good choice.I have a 20 and a 17 flex head, not the flex lock. I also have a stubby gas lens for the 17.  You will be set up pretty well with that stuff.
Reply:Originally Posted by NinjaRayI have been looking at the flex loc tig kits  - wp20 & wp17 along with a stubby kit.  Any suggestions ?  I will post some pictures soon.
Reply:Originally Posted by NinjaRayI have been looking at the flex loc tig kits  - wp20 & wp17 along with a stubby kit.  Any suggestions ?You are correct, I'm more used to buying consumables than torches.  I have the WP9 and 17 air cooled torches.
Reply:*Update*  So I called my LWS for an update and supposedly no one at Victor Technologies can find the order and it never went through, even though it was ordered by my LWS.  No machine as of yet so I am going to let LWS know in the morning to cancel the order and order the syncrowave 210 instead.Glad I didn't order any torch kits yet.
Reply:Originally Posted by iron miketake a cold shower. grow up and buy the miller..simple
Reply:Originally Posted by yusakuWhat he said! Only i would not have said it that way. I would go with the Miller. Actually I would wait and get the water cooled version Miller 250 with full running gear for $5100. You know you will not regret it. I have been wanting a tig machine like that for almost three decades. If I had the money and a place to weld I would never miss the money. I do not care if I had to eat rice, beans, and pasta while I was paying for it. Get something nice. You know you want. I think we really feel the same about this issue.
Reply:LWS called me and said Victor screwed up the order and supposedly it was shipped today, it should be here by Monday, Poor LWS guy went back and forth with Victor yesterday and today and he even apologized when it wasn't even his fault.LWS guy also ordered the syncrowave 210 just in case. I have some work piled up that was waiting for the tweco but I am off to go fire up the powr kraft welder.
Reply:Take the 210.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:I'm curious to see if you end up with the thermal arc or the tweco one. Also since he ordered you the 210 also, it's a great chance to try them out side by side. I really want to know if they changed anything with the new tweco name.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:You can add water cooling for the Miller 200 Syncrowave or the 210.I already have done it and photos and instructions are on the internet.http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...syncrowave-200Last edited by Donald Branscom; 08-01-2014 at 11:08 PM.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:I've ordered the parts kit that was supposed to fix the foot pedal on the 186, but the arc control is still a little choppy. I'd say get the Miller. I wish i'd just saved for the Dynasty.SqWave 200Millermatic 190Airco 200 ACHypertherm PM45Boice-Crane Band SawVictor O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonWelp, since the 186 was 220 volts, why not move back into inverter with a Dynasty280 or 350. A little more money, but a lot less power draw than a Sync250.
Reply:Originally Posted by BrazinI've ordered the parts kit that was supposed to fix the foot pedal on the 186, but the arc control is still a little choppy. I'd say get the Miller. I wish i'd just saved for the Dynasty.
Reply:You get used to it. I do 99% aluminum and don't really notice it anymore. More noticeable on DC though.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Why would anyone want to get used to that?Someone who owned a new 186 tried my older Arcmaster 300 and said it was noticably smoother than his 186.  My Arcmaster's arc is indistinguishable from the one on my old Dynasty 200.
Reply:So today should be the day the 186 and miller show up at the LWS, I have been looking at the spec sheets and manuals on both machines and it seems the 186 has the miller beat except for the 10 extra amps the miller has, but only on DC tig.  Crazy that the miller manual says the machine only does 184 amps AC max, The miller can only weld stick @ 150 amps as well.  I hope I am understanding the manual correctly because if the miller only has 184 amps AC @20 % duty cycle, what would 210 amps AC be ? .5 duty cycle? wouldn't that be like 30seconds of welding ? Looking at the miller chart on the machine shows it does weld @ 210 AC/DC TIG, The manual says something way different. I am posting the pictures so you can see what I am talking about. Only person I can think of to confirm this would be weldermike  since he has experience with the machine.  Miller is confusing the heck out of me and I like how the specs on the miller website say * Specifications ( subject to change without notice ) <--- WTF is that ?  Attachment 791111Attachment 791121Attachment 791131Attachment 791141I am most likely going with the miller because of the resale value should I ever have to sale it and other reasons,  Didn't ESAB parent company buy Victor Technologies ? I would expect more name changes to follow in the years ahead since thermal arc is now tweco, 2 years from now it should be ebco - tig caddy 186 or tig daddy 187  .....Last edited by NinjaRay; 08-04-2014 at 08:28 AM.Reason: Haven't Slept !
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleYou get used to it. I do 99% aluminum and don't really notice it anymore. More noticeable on DC though.
Reply:I'd like to try that miller 210, but I can't imagine it being worth $700 over the 186. Less pulse, less frequ, no room for a water cooler and have to pay for the SD card options.I'd like to build a pedal with higher ohm pedal, but it's not worth the $200 gamble for it to not work.Last edited by Gamble; 08-04-2014 at 09:03 AM.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI'd like to try that miller 210, but I can't imagine it being worth $700 over the 186. Less pulse, less frequ, no room for a water cooler and have to pay for the SD card options.
Reply:Well you probably have a 14-30 day return policy.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:In light of the power specs I will say that the 186 had a very strong arc once we got it tuned in spite of the choppy pedal action. On the other hand the Miller has best distribution and support bar none. Miller's website and forum is very good too.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonIn light of the power specs I will say that the 186 had a very strong arc once we got it tuned in spite of the choppy pedal action. On the other hand the Miller has best distribution and support bar none. Miller's website and forum is very good too.
Reply:I never had to "get used to" the Miller 150STL, Dynasty 200, or Syncrowave 350, or the Lincoln PT375. I've heard the Fabricators from TA don't have as choppy a feel on TIG either. Super annoying for Stainless. SqWave 200Millermatic 190Airco 200 ACHypertherm PM45Boice-Crane Band SawVictor O/A
Reply:No welders came into the LWS today. Almost pulled the trigger on a craigslist find which was a lincoln weldanpower 225 with cc/cv, I called the seller who told me to pick it up, got a call a while later from the seller saying his late appointment showed up to buy it. It included a trailer, job box and 100ft of cable for the low price of $750 .  What a deal and I lost out . Also found this http://flagstaff.craigslist.org/tls/4588584057.html
Reply:Sold my helmet to a guy today who said his bobcat was stolen. Another reason I am happy I don't have a miller. If someone sees a china machine they won't bother with it. LolTorchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI don't have first hand experience with millers support, but from what I've seen and heard I'm not very impressed. I have a friend in CA that bought 2 miller coolmates, both were jacked and had to go to the service center. 5 weeks later they still weren't back. They were brand new, why not have them exchanged at that point?Also the guy in the other thread with the battery powered hobart welder had to wait 7 weeks to get his repaired.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleSold my helmet to a guy today who said his bobcat was stolen. Another reason I am happy I don't have a miller. If someone sees a china machine they won't bother with it. Lol