wrought iron gate job....

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So I have a customer who wants a gate made that looks like this....Its going in this opening:So I'm wondering how the best way to anchor it to the posts is... maybe some kind of hinge that anchors into the Also what size material should I use?? In was thinkin of using 5/8" for the pickets, maybe 1-1/2" channel and 1-1/2" flat bar for the outside edge all the way around.  I think then it would be a lot more sturdy then just using 1/2" pickets and 1" channel and flat bar.  So any advice would be appreciated again!! Thanks http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:overbuilding something like that just creates problems. Sag, anchor failure, extra strain on the opener/s, Etc.It looks like their opening is just a little over half the size of the opening in the pictures so the gate itself will look different in comparison. Just my $0.02There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Tge opening is 14' roughly...So you think that using the 1/2" and 1" will be sturdy enough? http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:Were you asking how to anchor it to the stone?  I would not unless the anchors were already built in.I would set steel posts in concrete and hang from those - I've seen nice heavy gates hung that way and then you are not in danger of hurting the stone work.Disclosure: I have not done gates like you are doing so maybe others will say it's ok.  On railings I've done, I drilled and anchored them to the concrete only - left the building untouched.Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Dave is right about anchoring to the stone.  There's probably a hollow cinder block core to the post, so they aren't as solid an anchor as they look.  Drilling all the way through the pillar and bolting a hinge in place might be an option.JackJackFort Loramie, OhioMilermatic Autoset 180
Reply:I'm just saying don't build it stouter than it needs to be. I also agree with setting it's own post.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:so im thinkin of using punched channl for the horizontal pieces, and maybe a piece of flatbar for the bottom and the sidesLast edited by MetalMan23; 03-12-2013 at 06:27 PM. http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:Maybe ask Mudstomper99.  He seems to know these kind of gates.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=256801
Reply:I would use square tubing instead of solid stock, because of the trade-off involved for weight versus strength.  Especially for the pickets.  I would also want to actually look at (and measure) the one he's showing you as a model.  It's a trick to keep this sort of thing from sagging, especially when kids (or adults) get on the thing to ride along as it swings.  The specific design of the gate in the picture is going to be important, unless you've got a lot of experience (or a degree in structural engineering).Important to note: I've never built a gate of that size.Jack OlsenMy garage website
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveWere you asking how to anchor it to the stone?  I would not unless the anchors were already built in.I would set steel posts in concrete and hang from those - I've seen nice heavy gates hung that way and then you are not in danger of hurting the stone work.Disclosure: I have not done gates like you are doing so maybe others will say it's ok.  On railings I've done, I drilled and anchored them to the concrete only - left the building untouched.Dave J.
Reply:Steel posts are a good call. Concrete footings, and right up against the stone posts. Find out how the posts are made. Ideal would be to have an anchor bolt at the top, into the stone pillar. BUT, depends on pillar construction and even then, no matter what, you run the risk of cracking a stone or having it fall right off. (you inform the client and have them sign off that stone repairs are extra. If you didn't build it, consider it schit and hope for the best, unfortunately). Bolt at top will take out any "boing" from the steel post. I haven't done it, but have heard anecdotally that you could fit a decorative collar around the top of the stone pillar to achieve the same result. One thing I've learned over the years, using tube in place of solid can be a real no-no. Especially with period railings/gates. The rounded corners look like schit compared to the crisp edges of solid stock. So keep this in mind when designing. Tell yer client that the gate in the picture isn't that great either. Much of the stock used is undersized and doesn't suit the size of the gate. This is something you see WAY to often. So, again, design based look and function, not trying to save weight. If your sinking posts to hang you can sink what ever is needed size wise. And don't be cheap here. Gates have three directions to sag. You can gain visual "weight" buy using wide, flat, bar stock mirrored back to back on each side, in the panel field instead of square bar. Saves weight too. 3/16-1/4" will give it dimension , standing off the pickets. Heavy, without the weight. 200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:apparently the posts already have some hinges anchored into them, from some previous gates...so i will look at tthem, and see what they look like, see if i can use them, if not, then ill go with the post optioni do like the look of solid square over tubular... i think im gonna go with solid, Bert, what would you suggest for the size of the matterial? i would like to stick with square pickets, i plan on using a piece of heavy flatbar for the hinge side, and then for th bottom and the inside using flatbar as well http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:I make gates quite often and I always use 1 1/4" tubing 14ga. and 1/2" 16ga. for pickets. I feel that this works about the best for me because it keeps the weight down. The hinges maybe the hardest part with the uneven surface of the rock. I've worked with the fake rock posts and good luck, if you can make sure that your ancores are as deep as possible. Hopefully the Mason did a better job on yours than what I had to deal with.
Reply:Originally Posted by MetalMan23apparently the posts already have some hinges anchored into them, from some previous gates...so i will look at tthem, and see what they look like, see if i can use them, if not, then ill go with the post optioni do like the look of solid square over tubular... i think im gonna go with solid, Bert, what would you suggest for the size of the matterial? i would like to stick with square pickets, i plan on using a piece of heavy flat bar for the hinge side, and then for th bottom and the inside using flat bar as well
Reply:thanks, bert, a lot of info...the customer looked at a lot of designs and this is the one that they chose, so theyre happy with the design, although i do think your suggestions would make it look better...i will keep all those things in mind as im doing this job, i want to get into more of these gatesso would you use flat bar for the arched pieces on top? punch it? i was thinkin of using punched channel, that way i could run the pickets, all the way through.ill post some pics as soon as i start the job,Last edited by MetalMan23; 03-14-2013 at 06:36 PM. http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:how much would you charge for a job like this? say a 14' opening, so two gates roughly 7X6ish made with 1/2" pickets, 1-1/4" flatbar, and 1-1/4" square solid on the hinge side????just looking to see what other guys would charge for a job like this.... thanks http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:I recently installed a spiral stair.  It was quite beneficial to hired  a tree service to help hoist it.  It was cheaper than renting a lift and got an extra man.  Might come in handy if you build it heavy. I like solid too as long as get PAID to do it.  Remember you got to manipulate it to paint or make sure your powder coater can fit in his oven and he will give the same rate for a heavy gate.
Reply:MetalMan23If your client wants the look in the photo example; I offerthese standards and questions for cost consideration:the narrow opening mandates veiled structural columnswith custom J-hinges [behind the stone pedestals],the remote actuator - electrical - who is your electrician? excavation - who is your dirt-guy?,who builds the forms, who compacts the fill? many yards of concrete - who pours your mud?, 'shot in' embeds, do you have a builder level?is the gate wrought or ornamental iron?is the gate powder coated?and . . . . . . . These are just a few of the raw engineering consideration; the figurative design is above this.Fabrication cost cannot be factored until all of the above isdetermined.The figurative [aesthetic] and engineering design alone, is at least a $3000 expense, whether the job is done or not,and is billable.   You are looking at a minimum of $30,000+ for something that you can put your name on  -  and is representative of the clients pictorial example.If the client doesn't understand what they asked for, graciouslydecline [walk away].   They may not like you in the moment, but if they are a good [potential] client, they will respect you, and will call you in their moment of confusion, because you didn't fib to them.I they don't balk, send a PM and I'll help fill in some blanks.Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROMetalMan23If your client wants the look in the photo example; I offerthese standards and questions for cost consideration:the narrow opening mandates veiled structural columnswith custom J-hinges [behind the stone pedestals],the remote actuator - electrical - who is your electrician? excavation - who is your dirt-guy?,who builds the forms, who compacts the fill? many yards of concrete - who pours your mud?, 'shot in' embeds, do you have a builder level?is the gate wrought or ornamental iron?is the gate powder coated?and . . . . . . . These are just a few of the raw engineering consideration; the figurative design is above this.Fabrication cost cannot be factored until all of the above isdetermined.The figurative [aesthetic] and engineering design alone, is at least a $3000 expense, whether the job is done or not,and is billable.   You are looking at a minimum of $30,000+ for something that you can put your name on  -  and is representative of the clients pictorial example.If the client doesn't understand what they asked for, graciouslydecline [walk away].   They may not like you in the moment, but if they are a good [potential] client, they will respect you, and will call you in their moment of confusion, because you didn't fib to them.I they don't balk, send a PM and I'll help fill in some blanks.Opus
Reply:I have a small one man welding shop in a northern california foothill town.I started doing gates a couple years ago. I do nice work and I have never had any problems with my installations. My gates have a lot of CNC cut parts that make up scenes in them.Just looking at it, I would estimate in my mind that is a 6-8k job, and yes I take into consideration that it looks like these people have money.If I ever told a customer, regardless of how much money they had that their gate was going to run upwards of 20k, I would expect to be chased away......that is just my opinion.That said, most of the folks who responded to this thread have way more experience and skill in this area than I do.Miller TrailBlazer 301Miller 12rc feederMiller ShopmasterMiller 22a feederPlasmaCam CNC TableHypertherm 45 cutterDrills, saws, blast cabinets etc.
Reply:You can do the same with flat bar as with the channel. If you are MIG'ing it, you could drill the holes too. All good considerations to add in from Opus!!  I think $30k might be a bit high. But, it's nearly impossible to quote work for others. WAY to many variable factors. You'll have to do the leg work for yourself. If it's going to be a powered gate, definitely talk to the opener guys. They'll have all the spec's and can tell you what they need. They may have a wealth of resources in house as well. You may literally be able to build the gate and hand it off to them to do the rest. You can contract them or have them contract to the home owner separate. (this takes all responsibility for everything but the physical gate off you, plus save the client the markup you'll have to add for the increased risk/management if you hire them). If that's the design the client want's, then that's what they get. It's their money, your just trying to direct it into your pocket! But there's no harm in educating them on better design and showing them what they could have. Some people appreciate this and some just zone out and are oblivious.And a clients "wealth" shouldn't be a factor in pricing. A job is a job is a job. Treat everyone equal and fair and it will come back to you. But if they try to grind your a$$ on the price, then phuk'm. They'll be a pain in the long run.200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:thanks for the replys, sorry i didnt reply sooner im on vacation in the carrribean     i should have said before that im subcontracting to a fencing contractor who has the job, so my price would just include fabrication and install, no openers or anything.if posts need to be put in, then the contractor will do that, and my price stays the same.i hope i get the job, it will be good experience for me, (and give me a reason to make another fab table) i want to get more into specialty jobs like this,forgive me for not knowing the difference, but whats different between wrought iron, and ornamental iron?? the actual metal??also from what i figure, the weight of each gate should be around 300lbs http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:Interesting read guys...I've also got a gate job coming up this summer.  A two piece ~20' opening.  Never done a gate before, but this will be for a friend who owns a leather shop.  He wants a "western" appearance like a ranch style gate.  What is the best way to lay out a gate pattern?  I was thinking of measuring out and drawing the pattern on my shop floor (at least the perimeter) then putting it together from there.
Reply:http://www.realwroughtiron.com/about..._iron-217.htmlWrought iron is a type of ironbut as mentioned not really used these days and 99% of all Decorative steel/Iron is just plain ol' regular steel but referred to as Wrought Iron It is really..Hand Forged/ workedMachine forged/ workedEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I have made gates like this one before;  use seperate tube or pipe posts.  Stone may be hollow and my not be able to take side loadind.  I have had call backs about saging gates only to find that the stone pillars tilted.  Include diangle braces on gates from bottom middle to top side, they will keep the leaves square.  Use soild steel, can,t paint the inside of a tube.Looks like a cool project. I build wrought iron gates as a sideline and have done some monster stuff. Maybe working in Africa is different but I use big rawl bolts with two part epoxy in the brickwork to hang gates. The big problem I find is builders here don't know what a "level" is and it creates all kinds of problems. I don't know how to post pics here or I'd show you a really big swing gate I built and hung.
Reply:Wrought also means worked.  Thus you are both right.
Reply:These "wrought" iron gates are built from bought components and fried together. No real skill involved but the components don't come from the far east so there is no cast iron involved. I'm a bike builder by day but the computer dude I use needed a gate and this was the result of his design. I had the tubing bent by the dude that bends my pipes for the bikes. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by AKmudWhat is the best way to lay out a gate pattern?  I was thinking of measuring out and drawing the pattern on my shop floor (at least the perimeter) then putting it together from there.
Reply:Originally Posted by tauruckThe big problem I find is builders here don't know what a "level" is and it creates all kinds of problems.