Help with TIG bead profile

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Ok I have been practicing and posted up some stuff in Rick's  TIG welding class thread but don't want to hijack it.  So making a new thread.My main question right now is how do I get a convex bead profile Like in Zapster's example.   I love his examples because we have the same machine so I know the problem is with the Operator (me)   I can make concave and flat weld beads on Fillet weld T joints but cannot get the Convex look except if I am too cold with no penetration.   Same machine, Tungsten etc.  Maybe its an optical illusion but these beads look convex Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:They look flat to me,but it is hard to tell from pics. With tig it is hard to get convex welds. When making a T joint don't just tap the filler in to the puddle you sometimes need to push a little filler into it.Does this welder look like the welder you use?  Attached ImagesAirco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Are you using the dab or lay wire technique. What amps are you running at?
Reply:Yep that's my welder.  I am dabbing it.   Zap has really nice seperated dabs that are quite spread apart.  Mine seem to end up looking more like a series of ripples.  I am thinking I need to modify my torch or filler movement.  I was trying all different movement and a couple diff filler sizes in pic below Attached ImagesTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Push that filler in there! Push that sucker in so you get into that base and don't undercut the tops of the bases. Hard to explain, but amperage is key on the thinner stuff, and you can get the best of both worlds. When it comes to the thin thats when I really focus, get close, get comfortable, and if someone wants to talk with me I come back to it in a few minutes. 100% focus and fill!I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Everyone welds different, but If I dab, I do it hot and fast.. Maybe try to speed up the dabbing..  What size material and what size filler you using, and how many amps you welding at?Have you tried the lay technique?? I use that often too..
Reply:That Airco is blue!  I posted a long time ago about the half/full wave and just looked at some post you had about it, did you ever find out what it is/does? Also looks like you need to keep a tighter arc and maybe more amps/faster travel speed. Hit the steel with a grinder before welding and you can control the puddle better.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugThat Airco is blue!  I posted a long time ago about the half/full wave and just looked at some post you had about it, did you ever find out what it is/does? Also looks like you need to keep a tighter arc and maybe more amps/faster travel speed. Hit the steel with a grinder before welding and you can control the puddle better.
Reply:1/16 is good for dipping, if you want to lay wire 3/32 and 1/8  is usually betterAirco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:I can't explain it but ask anyone that has actually watched me in person and they know how I get what I get.Then they seem to be able to do it even if they could not when they got there..You already have my welder settings....it's all in the wrist and with a little finesse..And a lot of pedal....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Zap, do you weave the torch a little and push the puddle and filler into the sides?   I noticed I can do that running a little less amps or run higher amps and keep the torch more centered and jam the filler into the corner of the jointTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:No trick bud, When it clicks, it clicks! I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:The first thing it looks like you need to do, is take a sanding disc to your base metal.  TIG likes bright shiny metal. Even a light coating of mill scale can cause poor puddle wet out and undercutting issues.ESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Originally Posted by DanThe first thing it looks like you need to do, is take a sanding disc to your base metal.  TIG likes bright shiny metal. Even a light coating of mill scale can cause poor puddle wet out and undercutting issues.
Reply:first pic..the beads look cold, but the metal shows that some heat went in..i think you are cooling the puddle with too much filler..try smaller filler rod..
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadfirst pic..the beads look cold, but the metal shows that some heat went in..i think you are cooling the puddle with too much filler..try smaller filler rod..
Reply:Here is a narrow bead I ran. 1/16 mild steel with 1/16 filler, machine about 125amps (40% on medium range).   Let me know where I need to go from here.  Bead size, movement, heat etc.  I need a bit more filler on top right due to undercut. Attached ImagesTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Here is a second angle of that bead above Attached ImagesTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:That looks much better, looks like you need a little more amps at the start. Getting closer to dime it looks like the steel got too hot and you couldn't control the puddle making it look washed out and getting some undercut. Notice how much better it welds with clean steel?   Now go practice some more Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Here is a different bead done with more heat and filler resulting in a much larger bead.  Not sure which I should be trying to do.    The profile of this bead is flat making a triangle bead shape if viewed from the side Attached ImagesTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:I would work more on your foot pedal technique. When you dip the filler try backing off the amps a little bit. That way you aren't burning filler material in so much.Miller Dynasty 200Millermatic 211Instagram?.... find me @ WELD_MEDIC
Reply:Soutthpaw the first bead looked better but for running it hot you were able to keep the weld pretty even which is good. Tig_21 you don't need to bump or pulse the pedal..thats cheatingAirco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:^^ Oh it is?....I use that technique all the time I still don't see why it's cheating and nobody has given me any reason why it's such a bad idea....I say, if it works for certain welders and it does not compromise the weld strength in any way then why not? Just as long as they know how to do both techniques. Why do the welders come with pedals in the first place then? I don't want to shy away from the OP's discussion but I wouldn't say it's cheating....IMOMiller Dynasty 200Millermatic 211Instagram?.... find me @ WELD_MEDIC
Reply:He is learning to control the puddle, with the pedal-adding filler-travel speed. Pulsing the pedal is going to be something else to get in the way and I have seen guys that do that and don't let the filler fuse in the toes. He needs to learn the basics before adding more to tig.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by tig_21^^ Oh it is?....I use that technique all the time I still don't see why it's cheating and nobody has given me any reason why it's such a bad idea....I say, if it works for certain welders and it does not compromise the weld strength in any way then why not? Just as long as they know how to do both techniques. Why do the welders come with pedals in the first place then? I don't want to shy away from the OP's discussion but I wouldn't say it's cheating....IMOOriginally Posted by SquirmyPugHe is learning to control the puddle, with the pedal-adding filler-travel speed. Pulsing the pedal is going to be something else to get in the way and I have seen guys that do that and don't let the filler fuse in the toes. He needs to learn the basics before adding more to tig.
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugHe is learning to control the puddle, with the pedal-adding filler-travel speed. Pulsing the pedal is going to be something else to get in the way and I have seen guys that do that and don't let the filler fuse in the toes. He needs to learn the basics before adding more to tig.
Reply:I don't mean to confuse anyone. Basically when it comes down to it the OP needs practice which is what he is doing. Yes, when he masters the basics he can move on to the other techniques. I just know what helped me in the beginning(school) and that helped me get a job over the welders with 15+ experience. I'm just sharing the love, take it or leave it. But either way I know that manual pulse is necessary and can help in certain weld applications so if anyone says differently they don't know how to expand their original welding patterns of the "pedal to the floor" technique.Miller Dynasty 200Millermatic 211Instagram?.... find me @ WELD_MEDIC
Reply:Tig I wasn't saying you cheat with bumping, just I see alot of guys that depend on bumping to get the stack of dimes. They never learn to control the heat with speed and filler and when they need to scratch start they can't weld. I know bumping has its place but it isn't something to depend on. Shovelon, I sent you a pm saying about the same thing. Was just keeping the thread from getting so cluttered with posts.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Thanks for all the comments and suggestions so far.  I will try them all out.  I was starting with more pedal and then backing off along the joint but not really pulsing at all.  Shovelon did show me how to do heat control with the filler on aluminum this summer and that was one of the things I was trying to work on here with steel...  I will also try using a fixed amperage by turning off the remote amp control..  I know the look that Zap has in the first pic I posted must have to do with the filler and heat control of the puddle. Heat->Fill->Move.. repeat is what I have been trying to work on...Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawHere is a narrow bead I ran. 1/16 mild steel with 1/16 filler, machine about 125amps (40% on medium range).   Let me know where I need to go from here.  Bead size, movement, heat etc.  I need a bit more filler on top right due to undercut.
Reply:Well, since we are at this stage, why not double dip with that 1/16" rod. First dip to fill the root, second dip to plump up the bead. Something we have had to do when the WPS calls out a certain size weld and filler. Then it is up to us to get the job done.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Regardless of what everyone types..If you are using .060 material then any filler over that size can and will make more problems for you than it's worth because you need to crawl..walk before you can skate.Takes more heat to melt the filler than the piece and that is incorrect.Send me your address and I will send you some .045 and some .030 filler to play with.It won't be the first time I did this either....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:My take on this:You really need to slow down.  You're bead isn't filling out properly because you're trying to zip too quickly through the weld.  Slow down, and let the puddle fill out to the throat size you're looking for, THEN add wire.  If you're adding wire and swirling the puddle out, you're too cold. At the end of the weld, the material is heating up and you need to really come off the pedal.  Control the heat with the pedal, not with the travel speed.
Reply:Originally Posted by pat8703My take on this:You really need to slow down.  You're bead isn't filling out properly because you're trying to zip too quickly through the weld.  Slow down, and let the puddle fill out to the throat size you're looking for, THEN add wire.  If you're adding wire and swirling the puddle out, you're too cold. At the end of the weld, the material is heating up and you need to really come off the pedal.  Control the heat with the pedal, not with the travel speed.
Reply:Here is another attempt.  Working from bottom up. Trying to slow down a lot like Pat suggested with lower amps.  1/16 filler,  extended my tungsten stickout so I could see puddle better. The long spacing between each fill was intentional.. thought It may help see whats going on.  I think overall I am a bit cold but was trying for slow..Let me know what u all think Attached ImagesLast edited by soutthpaw; 10-30-2012 at 03:18 PM.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Awesome DJ!Are you seeing penetration to the root before you add the rod?Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonAwesome DJ!Are you seeing penetration to the root before you add the rod?
Reply:On a piece like that, I would weld it with about a 15-20* leading angle. It's hard to tell from that angle, but if the material is 1/16, it looks like your weld is 1/8.Assuming so, that weld is way too cold for the filler rod you're using.  Coincidentally, the rod is too big.   You really should either drop down to .045, or try and feed a lot less metal in your dips.In that top bead, you got the speed down - you can tell with the throat size being consistent with no IF or pinholes.  If you have problems feeding less filler in to the puddle, you could just turn the amps up a bit and wash over the wire (not pulling the wire out of the puddle)Here's some shots of standard fillets I do on turbo manifold runners.  This is what you're target profile should look like (not 16 gauge, but just to give you an idea):These are 3/16 fillets done with 1/16 wire on around 100-125aIf you're looking for a truly concave fillet (like on the first post), simply use less (or much smaller) filler.  You don't always need the extra structural support of a fully filled out fillet, but IMHO, a flat faced fillet looks nicer.Last edited by pat8703; 10-30-2012 at 04:38 PM.
Reply:Ok cool,  I am on the right track then.   Zap is sending me some 045 and 030 wire to try out (thanks Zap)I had a 30*+ leading angle.  now I just need to do some more practice and pull each piece of the puzzle together..   Now I have a better idea of speed, amps, feed and angle.  Practice, practice, practice..  It is very different than doing 16ga Aluminum that I practiced a lot over the summer.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Give this technique a shot until that new wire gets to you.  This will take a bit more heat than what you're using. (only about 30 seconds are relevant, and mute the sound) https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...0-L-wRo#t=104sThat'll get you results that look something like this (only example I have on hand right now)Last edited by pat8703; 10-30-2012 at 05:07 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawOk cool,  I am on the right track then.   Zap is sending me some 045 and 030 wire to try out (thanks Zap)
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpaw   I suppose I could move the tungsten in a bit close to the center of the joint where the 2 peices mate.  Should that point melt before adding rod?EDIT:  I may need to get more perpendicular to the joint with the torch..
Reply:I have to go with Aluminum...  maybe because I had a good teacher?  :thumbup:Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI always say yes to making sure the root of the fillet is melted before adding rod. Sometimes you can take it for granted that steel puddle does melt to the root, but is is bad practice to do so. Much better to see it get complete penetration throughout the fillet. In time it just makes sense.Now, what is easier steel or alum??????
Reply:Ok for fun I tried your razor blade weld.  Found some .o45 stainless filler. Don't laugh (tooo hard)Here is the back side... last 2 razor blades I had so could not try again.  I did not have any overlap in the blade ends... just touching Attached ImagesTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Gotta learn the basics before you try the parlor tricks But seriously.  Try washing over the wire with some more heat, and oscillate the torch to get the bead shape you're looking for.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI always say yes to making sure the root of the fillet is melted before adding rod. Sometimes you can take it for granted that steel puddle does melt to the root, but is is bad practice to do so. Much better to see it get complete penetration throughout the fillet. In time it just makes sense.Now, what is easier steel or alum??????
Reply:Originally Posted by pat8703The company I work for qualifies 3f & 4f hast-X.  By far the easiest way to do the test is just walk the cup up the plate, right over the wire.  Test is an acid etched t-bent.  The only people that fail this way are those that are trying to fail (they don't want the work the test qualifies you for)
Reply:I mean no offense, but I'd rather not.