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I'm building a small 5x10 trailer.I don't have the most level/flat driveway so I built up two beams (6ft wide) leveled them, and used them to lay the main rails.All the measurements are perfect (within 1/16 of an inch) including both diagonals.However, when I go with a simple carpenter's square, the two corners are out of square. Not a lot, but one corner is greater than 90 and the other is about the same amount less than 90.I think the only way this makes sense is if I have a twist in the frame.So I measured with a digital, 6ft level and all sides are less than .1 degree off (they all measure the same just the display is limited to =or - .1 degree). according to my math that's .1" over 60" - or 5ft.Its just a stupid utility trailer, I'm inclined to just put some heavy tacks on the corners and fit up the rest of the pieces. However, the perfectionist in me is bothered.By eye balling the steel, it all looks straight. All measurements are done on the top edge. Its all C channel (C3x5). I was trying to miter the corners etc.Inside the frame rails from side to side is 60 and 0/16 and 62 and 15/16 outside to outsideFront to back (outside measurement) is 121 and 7/16 (should have been 8/16 but.... cut a bit short).Corner to corner I get 136 and 12/16. My engineering calculator says 136.778 is expected...Any ideas? Shoot the engineer and get on with production?A friend suggest that as long as I get the axle square to the hitch, who cares?ThanksCon Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Measure from corner to corner in a "X" pattern and report back....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:If you want to be dead level, use a water level. Some clear tubing, a 5 gallon bucket and some water with food coloring will tell you if any part of that trailer is not level ( assuming you set up the level in such a way that it's easy to take measurements. A standard level may not tell you if all corners are even and level, but a water level will ( assuming you don't move the level.)As far as straight, A string line will tell you if there is a bow in the steel. I usually space out the string with something like a piece of 1/2" plywood so you can easily tell if the piece bows out or in.You've already pulled diagonals and that's usually the best way to determine square accurately.I've seen plenty of carpenters squares that are anything but square. The easiest way to check this is to set the square against a straight edge. Draw a perpendicular line with one side of the square. Flip the square over and using the same edge against the straight edge, draw a 2nd perpendicular line starting at the same base point on the straight edge. If the square is true, the lines will match. If the square is out, the lines will not match, but will either trail in or out depending on whether the square is over or under 90 deg..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIf you want to be dead level, use a water level. Some clear tubing,
Reply:Originally Posted by newburyand be sure you are not stretching the string.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIf you want to be dead level, use a water level.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWActually we stretch the string as tight as possible. Many times I'm using the string not only to check bow in and out, but up and down to set height for example. A string that isn't super tight will sag in the center over a distance and give you a false reading of a straight line as far as up and down is concerned. Where you can get messed up is if you are trying to pull that line tight to the item, say a beam, and the beam pushes out on the line. That's why it's often a good idea to space the line off the material. If you do keep the line in tight, you have to make sure you don't push the line out as you set the material to the line.
Reply:Yes THEN you do have to worry about stretching the line. Same goes with nylon tapes over long distances, especially in hot weather. It's easy to gain a foot or more over 100 feet if you pull the tape super tight. That's why surveyors always use a steel tape, as it will not stretch..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Your end rails or side rails maybe both pulled from the heat so there is probably a bow somewhere. If there is twist it will probably rock where it sits on the beam. Check your square with a 3-4-5 or multiples of that to see how you sit. Its common for a square to be off and the frame good or vice versa.
Reply:If you're getting less than 90 on one end, more than 90 on the other with the same framing square and the diagonals are the same then you've got one end narrower/wider than the other.If you're getting less than 90 on one side, more than 90 on the other with the same framing square and the diagonals are the same then you've got one side shorter/longer than the other.Sounds like you built a trapezoid. Double, triple check your outside (inside are irrelevant) dims.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:String works good for short distance. If you want to be real accurate for long distance, use piano wire weighted at each end.Dont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I just re-read your initial post. You are within 1/16" on the diagonals and less than 1 degree off in the corners.Nail it and move on.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:1/16" is close for that type of work. I'd weld it and move onto the next step.
Reply:Easiest way to make sure you're flat is to use your eyes. I accurately set the plane on a 45' foot float using my eyes, and two pieces of tubing. Sight the air gap as you look from afar, and shim to make the gap equal clear across the plane. This is one of the easiest ways to do it, and it's very very accurate. Been doing it for years with excellent results.Level is ok when you're working on a relatively level surface. My shop floor () slopes about 2 feet in 40 feet, so all I'm concerned with is whether something is planar (flat). Doesn't matter in what orientation you weld as long as it's flat.If all measurements (L & W) are the same, then the diagonals should be the same. 1/16" over 20' is about as square as you're gonna get, and have good results. I always build to 1/16, and consider it good. Only time I go tighter is when pivots are involved. When I built my front end loader it was built to a .010 tolerance (the tolerance of the DOM pivot points), and it was also eye sighted for flatness/alignment, showing just how accurate the human eye can be.Just a little side note..............You can get all anal with your measurements, then find that the spring bushings/eyes have about 2 miles of slop in them Trailer parts are just about as cheap, and sloppy, as you can get. Nature of the business. You only get into better quality when you get up into the Class 8 parts."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Are the corners racked ? Out of square a little ? Get 3/4'' pipe clamp and set it corner to corner '' X'' and tighten to square. If you don't have pipe long enough, you could use a ''C'' clamp as a stop for the pipe clamp. Are you using a 2' framing square ?You could use the 3', 4' , 5' method too. 3' one side, 4' one end and should be 5' diagonal.Last edited by BD1; 09-23-2014 at 09:42 AM.
Reply:Being out a 1/16 won't matter. Even having the axel out an 1" won't matter. It'll just look like a bulldog going down the road. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:Guys The key word in the OP's initial post was "carpenters square"A square is definitely not the standard by which anything large is squared, they're notoriously off. They're a good beginning to set stuff up, but by no means a accurate check of measurements. Diagonal are the only way to go"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by wb4rtI just re-read your initial post. You are within 1/16" on the diagonals and less than 1 degree off in the corners.Nail it and move on.
Reply:There's always levels of precision for every job. My old boss used to say that a former employee tried to use aircraft precision for a plow. Anyway there's ways to be off with any method used to measure the angle. Diagonals are ok but IMHO not the most precise way to do it. There's lots of ways for them to be off, from a rounded corner or burr on one side, slightly different joint fitup, slightly different lengths of sides and the list goes on. As for squares you should check them and adjust them. I have perfectly good carpenters squares that I rely on. But I know they're right because I've adjusted them to be right. If done properly probably the best method to check for square is the 3,4,5 method. Measure a multiple of 3 down one side (of any measurement that fits the job at hand), then a multiple of 4 down the other side, the diagonal should be a multiple of 5. But as with all the other methods it requires the sides to be perfectly straight, the measurements to be precise, and proper care taken.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Originally Posted by wb4rtI just re-read your initial post. You are within 1/16" on the diagonals and less than 1 degree off in the corners.Nail it and move on.
Reply:Thanks for all the responses.The carpenter square I used was accurate. I had a bad one years ago and since then I have checked and double checked this one often. Sucks when you cut a 2x12 and the end isn't square.So I also have this Bosch angle finder. I use if for custom cabinet/wood working where things have to fit. Keep in mind that when I do finish carpentry, I shoot for 1/32...Uhm. Lets just say the corners are .2 degrees out..... yeah .2 Front right corner measured 89.8, Front left 90.2.Still not 100% sure how, but I finished tack welding everything last night.Finish welding tonight. Thankfully its been dry and hasn't rusted over where I sanded/cleaned.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:To be square all pieces have to be the exact same length, not "within a 1/16"REAL TRUCKS DON'T HAVE SPARK PLUGS
Reply:Ok, now that's settled, con_fuse9 - let's see the pictures!I love trailer build threads. I always learn a lot from the guy building and the guys watching.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Ok, now that's settled, con_fuse9 - let's see the pictures!I love trailer build threads. I always learn a lot from the guy building and the guys watching.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Originally Posted by con_fuse9Corner to corner I get 136 and 12/16. My engineering calculator says 136.778 is expected...Any ideas? Shoot the engineer and get on with production?A friend suggest that as long as I get the axle square to the hitch, who cares?ThanksMixing concrete, and setting gateposts. Time for a break says meOn the subject of squares vs. diagonal measurements vs. other means.A square will give you a very false reading if the steel isn't absolutely straight......from end to end, and everywhere in between. Just think how much an 1/8" bow in the center of your main rail would throw the square off. You'd be squaring in the corner, but squaring to the actual bow in the steel. Corners aren't reliable when dealing with long members.345 method is pretty much the same, it relies on a measurement over a small area in one corner. If the steel's not absolutely straight, you got error.The diagonal isn't perfect, but because you're measuring over a larger area, you're also compensating for some of the small errors in straightness of the steel. It sort of averages the thing out so to speak. It has some serious limits too.....if the distance is way too long it will show error in the droop of the tape etc. But all droops being about equal on the two measurements, you're still real close to what you want. If you're dealing with a long build it can be easier to mark off a small area in equal lengths (L & W) either square or rectangular, then square the smaller area using the diagonals.It's sort of a best effort thing. You try to get the most accurate representation you can get.But I go at most things sorta *** backwards anyhow"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Bit of cherry pie, some tea, and the concrete mixer is fueled up and ready to go again "Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauIf the corner to corner measurements are 136 3/4" each way, then what's the problem? It's as square as it needs to be. Not really gonna get any closer. So yes, Shoot the engineer and get on with production. While your at it, tell the perfectionist in you to go take a break and while you move forward with the build or your gonna do him like the engineer.
Reply:Water level base. Steel may be warped from tacking or cutting. Lay a full sheet of plywood on top for a square if you still don't find a happy medium.
Reply:Why would you use a water level on a 5 x10 trailer frame? 24x24 I can see it. Just get something thats12 feet long and straight and level off it. Its a trailer not a paper machine base after all.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DIts a trailer not a paper machine base after all.
Reply:I measure other people's trailers all the time checking for square. Nothing worse than a frame that's off by a couple thou.."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:I mentioned water level because he said he was on a slanted driveway. So I would start with a perfectly flat starting point. Then I mentioned the plywood as a cheap huge square.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartI mentioned water level because he said he was on a slanted driveway. So I would start with a perfectly flat starting point. Then I mentioned the plywood as a cheap huge square.
Reply:I guess he should scrap it and make the next one round.
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1I guess he should scrap it and make the next one round.
Reply:I know the only thing I can make round is my waist line and even it is a little oblong !
Reply:Bisteneau is correct, being flat is more important than level. Just don't use a level on any other part of the layout. Sometimes it's easier to work from a level base but not needed.
Reply:Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave
Reply:Originally Posted by GravelIsn't that cubed?
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveCubed and then squared is a sixth power....I can't weld that
Reply:Originally Posted by GravelRookie! |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:59:33