Broken loader frame repair opinions please

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At work we have a Kawasaki 115zIV wheel loader.  I got a call after I left work today telling me that the loader frame broke.   When I got home, I got another call from the my boss, and pics in my E-mail.  Neither him nor I have seen it first hand yet but below are the pictures we have seen.  He looks at the pictures and starts making calls to find a replacement frame.  He says a repair would never hold.  Keep in mind he is no mechanic or welder.  I look at the pictures and say "I can fix it".  I think if I V it out to the center to get full penetration, weld it up with a duel shield wire, plate both sides and the top, it will be good as new. and a lot cheaper then replacing it.  I welcome any and all opinions, before I open my mouth in the morning.  This loader spends it's life digging in shot rock, beating itself to death.Thank you for looking, Bruce Attached ImagesBruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:In the left photo, it looks like the other loader frame is also damaged/deformed.
Reply:What you are looking at in the pictures, is both main loader arms are broken a foot or so from the bucket.  One dog bone is also broken.  That bent one has been bent for quite a while.  By the look of the pictures the right arm has been damaged for a while.  It prob. let go, then the other arm, and dog bone let go.Bruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:Im no expert, but looks like  your on the right track. Use hardox or weldox, not sure which one is the one for this application. Preheat and weld. Try calling manufacture engineer for procedure .
Reply:Yup, call the manufacturer.  They'll give you the welding procedure.  I'd try to fix it first.  A whole set of arms will be big $$$.My name's not Jim....
Reply:I am not familiar with weldox, but I do use hardox.  isn't that more of a wear resistant rather than structural?Bruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:This is a repairable job if done correctly. First would be to call and get a weld procedure, then it is only matter of following it.   If you cannt access manafactures  procedure then i normally use 11018 on T-1 and any high strength material.   Bevel to allow 100% weld , preheat and procede welding.   This weekend i had a D-8 dozer ripper shank get broke  - welded as described above and its back in the rock ripping.   Their is some good wires available , but , for a small repair as you have its cheaper to purchase 10 lbs of rods and then you not left with a spool of wire partially used.
Reply:I agree it's fixable and I agree you will need to go to the manufacturer to get the proper procedures to make this work the best.The problem is I'm not sure how successful you will be at getting the needed info. The local CAT dealer for example, pretty much tells you that welding on excavator booms isn't possible and tries to either sell you a new boom, or tries to get you to have them do the repair. ( since they can repair it it's obviously possible...) I'm sure a large part of this is for liability reasons. They have no clue what the welders background and skill level is, so they err on the side of caution and CYA and simply say "no, not possible" to avoid getting themselves dragged into court if something goes wrong.Convincing someone on the other end of the phone that you are qualified to do the job will be the real key to getting this info. I know a friend of mine who is a manufacturers  warranty and repair facility for many of the major crane manufacturers has managed to get "classified"  info and procedures from several heavy equipment companies, but getting past the reception desk to the guys with the info can often be a nightmare and extremely time consuming. If you can bypass the dealer and actually talk to someone at the distributor, service or manufacturers level, you'll probably have better luck in getting the info. He's lucky enough to have contacts in the industry that can often get him "inside" numbers that put him in touch with the people who can get him the info he needs, or at least have a good working understanding of the repair to quickly see he knows what he's talking about and is qualified to make use of the info properly..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Go for it!! I agree with calling the manufacture for proper repair first. Then lay the whip to it and start burning some rod or wire. Maybe get a raise outta the deal when you get done? What or how did this happen? I know the power of the equipment and all but that is some serious steel to bend or break.
Reply:Is it just me or does it look like the left side loader arm is a different color at the break, like it may have been cracked for some time and it rusted?  I second calling the manufacturer. I can get you the welding procedure for a similar sized komatsu  if you think it would be helpful, shoot me a PM
Reply:First thing to do is kick the operator in the who who's. He shoulda stopped long before this happened.Miller thunderbolt 250Decastar 135ERecovering tool-o-holic ESAB OAI have been interested or involved in Electrical, Fire Alarm, Auto, Marine, Welding, Electronics ETC to name a just a few. So YES you can own too many tools.
Reply:a little JB weld and she'll be good as new.
Reply:Would say  wouldn't think twice about repairing this. Get the same plate used in the original piece Then cut out both sides of the cut to remove the stressed and fatigued steel near the break point. Preferably at an angle to spread out load on  the weld. Then bevel for 100%. I would preheat to about 350. I believe that plate should be A572  grade 50.. easy to work with. I wouldn't use anything over 7018 should work great. A572 is used because it is easy to weld and doesn't require any special welding rod or wire. A similar dual shield wire would be great. after the cracks were fixed i would the fish plate back past the welds. not welding across the beam just down the sides. Hope this helps. there are many ways to do this repair mine may not be the easiest or the best but will work. Good luck and keep us posted.
Reply:Originally Posted by aDreamSoReala little JB weld and she'll be good as new.
Reply:Holy crap. Make sure to post up how you go about fixing this. Very interested to see how it goes.IW Local 580 NY, NY
Reply:110 mig should do the job.Ranger 305gMillermatic 140 AutosetDewalt Chopsaw2 grindersMy Fists
Reply:Is it just me or does the break on the left side appear to be rusted? Is it possible that has had a crack in it for a while? The break on the right side is white like it's new.
Reply:whoops.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireIs it just me or does the break on the left side appear to be rusted? Is it possible that has had a crack in it for a while? The break on the right side is white like it's new.
Reply:I agree, it does look like it has been cracked, but I will bet it gave all at once.  It does have 20,000 hrs on it, so it has been a long time coming.  It spends it's life digging in piles of rock ranging in size from basket balls to VWs.     The operator, and I use the term very loosely, is hard on things.  They know it, but keep him anyway.  This is by no means is first break, but it is definitely his best.  He has also ran 2 other machines that I know of out of oil and blown them up.  The people I work for do not like to pay for real operators, so you get what you pay for.  I am one of the highest payed in the company, and think I could do better, but at the same time, I have been looking, and have not found better, so maybe I am wrong there.     I will call the dealer in the morning, and see what they have to say.  They have always treated me well.  I will let you all know what we do and take pics.  Thank you for the help.Bruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:Originally Posted by bp626indamix110 mig should do the job.
Reply:We would never buy it new.  He called a salvage yard and parts locator that we deal with in AL.  If it is out there they will find it.  We don't buy anything new.  We got this loader with very high hours no more that 2 -3 years ago.  We beat them till they die, and patch them back up.  Job Security.Bruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcHe!!, a 110v mig plus some "old bed frame" for "added strength" around the weld joints  and it'll be "good as new!!!!"
Reply:11018, preheat temps of 150* with a full pen v groove, with run on run off tabs, back gouged, no post heat, and fish plate it, new dog bones are easy to aquire, 4 new swivel joints and its good as new.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:I spent 13 years designing loaders for underground mining (hard rock) and you can not repair that and expect it to live. It broke at the highest stress point when digging and any weld repair will only induce a stress riser at the worst possible location. You might be able to have two new side plates cut and re-use the center section but it is most likely fatigued  also. I would also do a close inspection of the main frame looking for cracks as that machine has had a rough life.Komatsu's welding procedure if it helps.
Reply:Thank you for the input everyone.  I had to laugh, by this morning, my boss's mind had changed to "Do you think you can weld it? A used one is $9,000."  I will post more pics later.  Thank you for the info Firemanmike69.  I did not know anything about post heating, and I never would have guessed it needed to be that hot.Bruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:Komatsu isnt using 514. That is obvious.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:delaet20I have built new, and repaired much larger weldments then your problem.The real issue is cost: buy new or good used - vs - the cost of repair and down-time.$9000.00 is cheap for a replacement part of this type, on a machine this size.  If you are 9000 miles from the store, you cannot wait, so repair is the economic reality, regardless if a quick repair has a shorter service life than new.Lawson/LLC's this isn't 514, and Fire/69's Komatsu's welding procedure, aretelling of the true complication of a successful repair.The pre and post heat temperatures tells us that Asian Yellow Iron is a near T-1 equivalent.The hand noted temperatures, C to F conversions for pre and post heat are correct, E9016 is Lo-Hi without iron-powder, pre E9018.In addition to all of the technique and facilities required for this repair, there is the Paul Harvey factor  -  The Rest of the Story.In 1985 I was on the fringe during the construction of a 200' single span, box girder, rail-road bridge built from T-1.  The bridge received a design award fromEngineering News Record, and from all outside press was/is a popular success.The real dirt is that the metallurgist [aka welding engineer] missed the footnotethat required the bridge be held at 400F the entire time it was being fabricated.This oversight resulted in the entire department being purged after completion.The Komatsu procedure - preheat / weld / post heat - may be one operation, thus requiring heat from beginning to end of your entire repair.   Also there is no mention of the exact duration of post-heat down-slope.The multi-national corporation that built the bridge got the blue ribbon, but wasover $200.000 in the red upon completion.There is a big difference between welding as applied craft, and welding at themetallurgical level. The distance between these difference is the real project.  Only your boss can decide.OpusLast edited by OPUS FERRO; 12-13-2012 at 02:11 AM.Reason: punc.
Reply:The first thing you have to realize is how truly cheep and stupid the ownership is here.  I think we paid somewhere in the 60k range when be bought the machine.  At the time the paint was new, and the loader ran well.  It also would not be the first time that they spend alot of time and money on a questionable repair that may or may not work long.  Honestly, back when I let the stupid bother me, It drove me nuts.  Honestly I figure if it holds great.  If not, oh well.  I am going to do my best, and learn something along the way, so I am happy.    The last one of theses cheep machines we bought was a Kawasaki 95Z IV 2.  The transmission did not last the first season we had it, and the price of a reman was half whet they paid for the machine.  I am at the point, I sit back and laugh at the stupid because it is every day.     A few years ago we had an excavator boom break in half.  I had noticed it cracking months before it let go, and pointed it out to my boss, who just gave me the off hand answer of, "we'll fix it when it brakes.  He is my boss because he has the right last name, not the proper skills.  The morning it broke, the owner of the company told the operator to go easy, the crack was starting to get bad (all the way across the top and half way down the sides).  when it let go, he had just barely cleared the truck it was loading, and it came crashing down.  That is how dumb they are.     The first picture, the straight portion of the break was rusted showing that it was not fresh.  This is not my repair, and looks uglier in person, but is still holding 3 years later.  I wish I had taken a pic while it was still where it had been digging with the top opened about a foot. Attached ImagesBruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROdelaet20The pre and post heat temperatures tells us that Asian Yellow Iron is a near T-1 equivalent.Opus
Reply:Lawson/LLCI agree, the post-heat temperature is way beyond anything in my experience.I am merely quoting the Komatsu post-heat specification, and is why I noted the absence of a post-heat down-slope protocol from such an extreme temperature.The procedure script is concerned with the how to, and not the why.  If the 600C specification is correct, I would like to know - The Rest of the Story - because it is new to me.Opus
Reply:We moved the loader to the shop to attempt a repair because our quarry is not fit for man nor beast this time of year.  Here are some more before pics.  The 1 loader arm does look like it was cracked 90% of the way prior to major failure.  Once it let go, the other arm did not stand a chance.  At first look, nothing appears to be bent. Attached ImagesBruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:For those of you not familiar with stone quarries, this is the way this loader spends it's days. Attached ImagesBruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:These arms are heavy.  3" thick.  I cleaned up the break, and tacked the break back together to get measurements to make sure it lines up correctly after V ing out, and discovered that the second arm to break did bend.  I believe I can account for the bend in piecing the arm back together, and began to prep. Attached ImagesBruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:I air arced out some cracked welds on the arm piece, and welded it back up.  Once I got the arms tacked together, the bend is not obvious anymore.  I am using the round bar to try to keep the arms in alignment so I am hoping to get away with out a line boring when done.  Lets see if I get that lucky.  The other bar is to make me feel better. Attached ImagesBruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:I thought I would do 1 arm then the other.  I ran my first pass down hill and my second pass uphill.  I air arced out the back side into the first weld so I knew I had full penetration.  I alternated back and forth every few passes to try to keep things straight.  The last pictures are where I stopped today.  Will continue Monday.I am using Lincoln 9018 5/32 mainly because it was what was available quickly at my lws.  I am preheating to about 200 deg.  I am running off an old Ideal Arc 250 (old tombstone).  I admit, vertical stick is not my strongest area, but it will be by the time I get done with this I think.I am also remembering why I bought my wire feeder.  Stick is slow  Attached ImagesBruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:holy loader buckets!how many pounds of rod do you expect this will take to complete?i'm hooked!
Reply:Looks like a fun project. I like the jobs people say cant be done or shouldnt be done it is good motivationMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:I will let you know.  They only had 50 in stock.  I told them to get more.  I like a challenge too.  I have done a few that I did not expect to work, and did.Bruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P
Reply:Absolutely awesome. I'm with farmshop... nothing better than pulling off a repair that seems impossible. I am so glad you jumped in and went to town on it. The proof will be in the function. I'm sure you'll have less time into the weld repair than you would fitting the new arms.  Not to mention the cost savings. A year from now when it's still making money remind the boss you need your cut.
Reply:Here is a good read for anyone looking at welding most loader booms, lift arms and heavy duty equipment frames made from T1 steel.How to Weld T1 SteelMillermatic 200Hobart Handler 120Victor O/A & Ramco BandsawLincoln 225 ACSnapOn AD HoodMiller XMT304/22AHypertherm Powermax 1650 G3Lincoln Idealarc DC600 w/Extreme 12 VSMiller Digital Elite "Joker"
Reply:Originally Posted by farmshopLooks like a fun project. I like the jobs people say cant be done or shouldnt be done it is good motivation
Reply:This is great. Making something work in the field is a whole different animal than the engineering in the office. Considering the 90% crack and the continued function of the machine for some period of time this repair is worth a try. If it works for a year the repair was worth it. Good luck, cannot wait to see the finished project.  Based just on the quality in prep and where you have gotten to thus far would give me confidence in the repair.Cain's Mechanical LLC Southwick, MAwww.cainsmechanical.comRig:-2006 Chevy 2500 utility body-Lincoln Ranger 10-Miller Spectrum -Tons of hand and power toolsAWS D1.2 Structural Steel Certification
Reply:I'm not going to say the welds suck, but they could use some improvement.  That's a lot of welding there to have it fail due to a bad pass buried at the bottom.  I'm not a fan of the gauge marks on the bevel either.Just repeat to yourself as you go.  "When in doubt, grind it out."  Keep posting pics too.That looks like one of them jobs where I would of had to work all weekend at my old job so they could run Monday morning.   I don't miss that a bit.  Now I just work all weekend for half minimum wage so my customers are happy.  I don't know if that's an improvement or not.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcWhen the U.S.S. Cole was hit by terrorists in Africa years ago and ripped open a gigantic hole right through the hull of that ship, the navy didn't scrap that floating piece of steel.  What did they do?   They FIXED IT!  Cut and welded back new parts and the ship was good as new.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWNot quite the same thing, though I get your point.The repairs on the USS Cole go back to policy decisions made in the Second World War. At the beginning of the war heavily damaged ships on the front lines were considered to much of a liability and to costly to repair, thus they were sunk even if it may have been possible to salvage the ships. Near the end of the war attitudes in some circles began to change. It was believed many ships could be saved, repaired and returned to service faster and more economically than previously thought. Ships like the light cruiser USS Houston were test cases in this debate. Hit by a torpedo, then hit again while being towed back for repairs, the USS Houston  sustained massive structural damage yet thru advanced damage control procedures managed to stay afloat and survive to serve again.The USS Cole was one of the few "modern"  warships ships to receive massive damage. The navy wanted to do a detailed analysis of the damage and what it would take to return a ship like this back to combat status. In many ways it was a test platform in damage control and reconstruction.My father was one of the naval officers assigned to do the damage assessments on the USS Stark for similar reasons. I can remember talking to him about this after the USS Cole was hit.
Reply:Put some run on, Run off tabs on there I would suggest 2" on both sides and tighten up the weaves.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:Originally Posted by LawsonWeldingLLCPut some run on, Run off tabs on there I would suggest 2" on both sides and tighten up the weaves.
Reply:He means to tack on some flat bar on top & bottom so you start and end your weld on the sacrificial plates that get torched of when you are done. It helps you get the puddle under control and stable at the beginning and helps control the heat at the end.Millermatic 200Hobart Handler 120Victor O/A & Ramco BandsawLincoln 225 ACSnapOn AD HoodMiller XMT304/22AHypertherm Powermax 1650 G3Lincoln Idealarc DC600 w/Extreme 12 VSMiller Digital Elite "Joker"