Calling all cwi's, and those "in the know"! Help!

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please, help me to understand! just a warning, this will be somewhat long and I hope this thread can be drug out by as many people as possible so that I might learn something about the finer points of this industry! so im a welder or something. carry basic, company issued certs to recognized procedures, and im a happy camper. been doing this for seven years now. only "certified" to mild steel pipe and structural, all positions, not more than 1" thick, not less than 2 7/8" O.D. pretty lame certs, but they get me by. im certified to AWS specs but im not recognized by them at all. guessing wps was purchased by my employer as a pre-qual, right? I just have pieces of paper with my employers logo at the top and aws specs at the bottom.so let me think about who AWS is for a sec. kind of a governing, umbrella authority on all things hot and sparky. but say I wanna go pipelining! I get laughed at when I mention aws. say I wanna go work for that awesome boiler company up the road, and they laugh at me too! so what is AWS really? On the rare occasion that an Inspector asks to see my certs, what does he see? what is the standard?!so if I want to be Mr. Awesome welder, what should my certs say, what authoritive entity should design the procedure, what specs from said entity should be on it? I know there is no do-all test, but the amount of confusion is, itself, confusing! im asking this because I am trying to get my employer to understand that our welding is sub-par. how do we, as welders/ inspectors, make sure what we put down is recognized as "good"? I personally enjoy that most everything I buy has a UL mark on it. it was tested and approved for use by an idiot such as myself. where is that in the welding industry.I keep promising one of my supervisors that I will walk into his office one of these days with a stack of procedures, and that we need test to all of them. we are very broad and do a lot of plant-work. that could mean anything from structural steel, to high-pressure steam, to acid/caustic lines, to sanitary duct-work, and anything in-between. and all that is done with whatever process is handiest. w/f, stick, tig, duct-tape, whatever.now, the funny thing about these plants is, they couldn't care LESS about the integrity of our welds. seriously. NEVER have I been asked to show any sort of qualification for them. it seems that to most the world, leaks happen, and you just put a "cap" over it and call it good. . . . .now im pissed. I hate when people use the word "cap" like that. and I hate that even the customer doesn't seem to care whether or not that steam-header will hold for more than a year, or that their new acid lines may have been improperly purged and it is no-longer 316 ss holding it all together but sugar and tungsten inclusions being slowly eaten away by the nasty stuff.so back to me playing the hero and wanting to cost my employer a bunch of money in certifications and testing. again, who is the authority on procedure for what we are going to do? not that I have tried it, but I imagine a google search for 316 ss sch10 6g test wont be very fruitful. I could sit down and type out what I feel is good, but im no engineer, nor cwi, nor am I even a great welder! honestly its not my place to come up with this stuff on my own. so back to the drawing board. . . . .WHO IS??????I was inspired to ask these questions because I stumbled across this today http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...ification.htmlnow in that, there is this link http://files.aws.org/certification/docs/QC1-2007.pdf that made me even more confused. because I saw it, I thought "well hey, I just need to become a cwi, on my own, and then I may have some authority to make sure that everything is going to do its job and hold together"well, the whole cwi thing is another brick-wall for me. again with the questions on whos who and will being under AWS name really get me anywhere? please help settle me down people, im stressing on this wayyy to much, and would also love some pointers on becoming a cwi as the technicalities just seem right up my ally thanks in advancebosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:Do you understand that "You" personally have no certifications? The certs you have, if done thru your employer are good for them and they keep the certs if you leave. The certs are only "yours" if you pay for them and maintain them, and that certs run out if not requalified or tested within a given period of time. Besides the AWS there's also API standards usually dealing with piping..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I do understand that I guess I never thought of it in that way. but I doubt anything is truly kept current. I just get frustrated because I want to compare welding to something like med-gas. my card shows that I took a bunch of class, and have passed written and physical exams regarding the installation, purging, and brazing of medical gas pipe. you cant touch it on a job-site without that card.im just trying to figure out how to make welding a little more formal in that sense, to be sure good products are the only kind put out.also, from a perspective of somebody that wouldn't mind owning his own business someday, maybe even as a cwi, where do I start? what do I carry around that might impress a potential customer?bosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:i hate the fact that i guess what im asking is, does the lack of government in the welding industry need to be addressed?don't get me wrong, the last thing i want is congress trying to decide what a decent fillet should look like, but is there any real authority?bosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:Ok, I will bite.These days I think you need to persue a welding career as a business. Myself being in business for over 35 years, I have had access to a universe of info. The 70s, 80's, and the early part of the 90's were all driven by Mil-spec. There were no testing bodies other than the factory floor for certification. The company paid for and owned these certifications and qualifications. Then starting with Y2k, a shift went from Mil-spec to AWS. Still the great part of certification and qualification happens on the factory floor. I pay and retain ownership of all documentation. I buy a pre-approved SWPS from AWS when possible for about $150 and get a liscense to use. When there is not one approved, I have to go through the process of developing one myself. That can cost $1k to $2k depending on the customer requirements. The subsequent PQR and Production WPS will allow me to test my crew with a minimal operator qualification test like you have done. And all of this is owned by myself and usable nowhere without my permission, my equipment, or my facility. What I would propose if you are an AWS member is come up with a company name, get some biz cards, purchase the spec for stainless pipe, the SWPS, coupons, and test yourself on your rig. Or test at a school. Send the coupons into the lab, and see if they qualify you. If they do, compile a file on your self. Then you own them. I am very fortunate to have a plethora of testing labs close proximity. As far as CWI, you don't need to be a CWI as long as the customer does not requiere one, or you are proficient enough to prove adequate skillset and experience. My go to guy is a qualitiy engineer with credentials up the wazoo, but no CWI certification. All of the AWS specs specify that in the document. General Dynamics and Boeing are tight ases and they recognize it. So inconclusion, with the proper welder certs in your possession, and the experience that you have, you can work as an inspector by proxy so to speak. You just need to back it up per spec. If you can test and become an AWS CWI, all the better. You still need current AWS specs to navigate from either way. Weldoring aint cheap.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:nice shovelon, much appreciated, gimme a bit to try and absorb that lol.bosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:One shift from Mil-spec to AWS weld criteria, is that AWS is a permanent qualifiction as long as essential variables don't change, and the weld operator establishes continuity, or if the cognizant engineering authority does not question your ability.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by 92dlxmannice shovelon, much appreciated, gimme a bit to try and absorb that lol.
Reply:not yet. . . . .i guess that's a move i need to make! looking into it as we speakbosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:Originally Posted by 92dlxmani hate the fact that i guess what im asking is, does the lack of government in the welding industry need to be addressed?don't get me wrong, the last thing i want is congress trying to decide what a decent fillet should look like, but is there any real authority?
Reply:annnnnd now im hungry. . . .what were we talking about?bosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:aaaaand im a member. good idea i'll see what i can make happen out of this. not sure what i want out of it but i guess membership is step one lolbosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:Originally Posted by 92dlxmanaaaaand im a member. good idea i'll see what i can make happen out of this. not sure what i want out of it but i guess membership is step one lol
Reply:i dunno what the shop works towards. it is really just blow and go and make it hold, except for a few customers here and there that may demand some sort of paperwork and inspection. inside the shop is building anything from gigantic air-handlers to pipe pre-fab, and any sort of framework that it may sit on. it is common to see stainless, ms, and aluminum all going into one projecti work outside on similar stuff so that is where i get confused on what i need to be aiming for as far as official specs. right now the guy next to me might be tigging steel pipe with 309 because its easier for him and he had some on the truck he wanted to get rid of. hasn't had a leak yet. when i demand 70s2 to do the same job, the boss(es) get confused and hand me 309 cause that's what john did and it worked fine.when i say BS! that's wrong! i actually have no idea why. i want to be the guy to know why because nobody else does, and it all goes back to the lack of quality control at both the fault of my employer and the customer. i want to be better. i will look into this D1.6bosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:We are here to help. In AWS D1.6 should be the appropriate test you should preform for a range of fillets, groove, pipe or plate. The tables and figures detail those out. Once you perform the test per a WPS that you compile or given to you, you or the test lab will document the results and email or mail them to you. You need to ask for and retain the coupons, films, or photos for your archive in a nice neat package that includes your joint configuration and initial WPS along with the results. If you loose those you are screwed. The test facility is only obligated to retain documents for a few months, hence you have the records. Typically a company without a system has no clue.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:thank you sir. you are clearing this up a lot for me.the way i see it, i need to either have my own business or keep doing as i have been with aim toward that "ringleader of the welders" position im trying to fabricate at work. this stuff i believe to be critical for success either way.sad part is the man that used to run the shop and taught me was big on this procedure stuff and was just considered to be a pain by most people.im waiting for the AWS bookstore to start working so i can look aroundbosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:If your employer will foot the bill with you administering your qualifications, great. The other weldors can pound sand. Sounds like you do a lot for your company. They probably dropping the ball and would be happy for you to jump in. If they won't, well you could just start a private concern with your home as a biz address. You don't need a biz license or fed Id # or resale #. Could not cost you but only a few bucks for some biz card. Then as things progress run the qualifications yourself and keep independent of your employer. Then move on or start your own concern. The future is yours if you take it by the horns.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:My turn to bite1. What line of business are you in? I get the impression you are working in a jobber shop that just does whatever they can to get by.2. AWS- a regulatory organization that has standards. Useful if a customer wants you to follow those standards.3. AWS CWI- see #2 above.4. What is YOUR role in the organization you work for?5. Welding Certs- Do not belong to you. They belong to the organization who produced them. Yes, some companies will accept them as proof you have welded before. In the petrochemical business ( major EPC)  that I work in, they are useless and mean nothing.6.
Reply:I can offer a couple thoughts too.There are lots and lots of different codes that govern welding.  Here's a short list for your to read if you have insomnia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_welding_codesThe American Welding society (AWS) is a non=profit organization that orchestrates the creation, update, and maintenance of structural welding codes for the USA.  The code defines how a weld should be designed to carry a specific load.  It details joint designs, welding technicals, filler metals, and provides guidance on what fillermetals to use with the wide variety of metals that can be welded. Structural seems really loosely defined insofar as the AWS is concerned.  It covers steel used in buildings, bridges, dams, and other large structures.   But over the years its brandched out to include heavy equipment(mobile and stationary) stainless steel, aluminum, aerospace(broadly defined as things that fly), and a long list of other types of welding(and cutting, and brazing) The AWS is made up of members and the work to create, maintain, and update the codes is done largely by volunteers from private industry, acedemia, and government agencies.  In the USA, some of the welding codes have the force of federal and state law.  D1.1, and the other structural building codes(1.2, 1.5, 1.6, and probably some others) are specificly referenced by federal and state law as governing how welding should be done.API is the American Petroleum Institute, ASME is the american society of mechanical engineers.  These are similar organizations which have come up with codes, that is strong recommendations, on how welding should be done.  They write codes that govern design and maintenance.  I'm not sure what the history is behind API.  But the ASME came about with the invention of the steam boiler.  In the 1800's there were so many steam boiler accidents that manufacturers partnered with colleges and government to create a system for safely designing, building and operating steam boilers.  Over the years that system or code has grown to include pretty much any industrial equipment that operates under high pressure and or temperature.  The original goal was to prevent fatalities through poor boiler design, shoddy construction, and sloppy operation and maintenance.Last thought for now.  AWS created the certified welding inspector(CWI) program as a means of validating that individuals have a broad knowledge base about welding and the expertise and experience to read, interpret, and use any welding code.  Not just the AWS codes.  However, as I understand it, many people in industry don't acknowledge this broad a definition of CWI, and so they require inspectors to be tested to the specific code that is relevant to the job being done.The short answer is that doing "code-quality" welding, by the book, almost requires you to pick and area of specialty.  Structural steel, or pressure piping, or aircraft aluminum.  That way you narrow the body of knowledge down to something manageable by 1 person and keep the work reasonable.  Although, based on what I've seen, it's just about impossible for a 1 man operation to get certified to ASME boiler pressure standards for fabrication and repair.  The system is so complex that it just takes several people to manage the records and bookkeeping on top of the people actually doing the welding.AWS is much more manageable as Shovelon described. Gotta run for now.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Originally Posted by weldertomMy turn to bite1. What line of business are you in? I get the impression you are working in a jobber shop that just does whatever they can to get by.2. AWS- a regulatory organization that has standards. Useful if a customer wants you to follow those standards.3. AWS CWI- see #2 above.4. What is YOUR role in the organization you work for?5. Welding Certs- Do not belong to you. They belong to the organization who produced them. Yes, some companies will accept them as proof you have welded before. In the petrochemical business ( major EPC)  that I work in, they are useless and mean nothing.6.
Reply:thanks dab l do, great info!so now, to bring up the other side of the equation, as an aspiring business owner,I have a truck, ready to go and weld some pipe for myself. old friend calls and says he has work that pays and his boss needs a welder that is decent and fast, and can knock this gas-line out for him. . . . .at a school.so, assuming it is going to be inspected (not scared), and assuming the inspector is going to want to see certs, do my employer's certs for me mean anything? im assuming it will get me in, and watched really close, but in. any thoughts?bosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:Originally Posted by 92dlxmanthanks dab l do, great info!so now, to bring up the other side of the equation, as an aspiring business owner,I have a truck, ready to go and weld some pipe for myself. old friend calls and says he has work that pays and his boss needs a welder that is decent and fast, and can knock this gas-line out for him. . . . .at a school.so, assuming it is going to be inspected (not scared), and assuming the inspector is going to want to see certs, do my employer's certs for me mean anything? im assuming it will get me in, and watched really close, but in. any thoughts?
Reply:Not an expert on low pressure gas lines, so take this with a grain of salt.  Anything downstream from the gas meter is typically low pressure; a few psi.  IF that's the situation for this job your considering, then it's likely not tightly regulated.  6010 and so long as the joints don't leak you're good to go. You're biggest worry will likely be any pipe fitters giving you crappy locations for making field welds.  Seems to me that some go out of their way to stick tie ins and other field welds in the worst locations.   But that's here in the MidWest.  In California, I'll bet you or the contractor will have to content with state inspection.  In a school, or any public works project I would bank on it.  I think Shovelon is right.  Present what you've got and see if the contractor is OK with it.  But be prepared as best as you can... I've bid school work here in Ohio once before and I had to have my own insurance and workman's comp coverage to even be considered for doing the work.Downstream low pressure piping is probably covered by the NFPA/AGA codes, http://www.techstreet.com/aga/products/1808389.  A quick search shows that ASME B31.2 Fuel Gas piping, was replaced decades ago by ANSI/NFPA Z223.1.  This is the code referenced in the AGA document I linked to above.  But could also be B31.9 Building services Piping.  If the gas line in question is upstream from the meter then it's almost certain to be ASME code and the PG&E, or whoever the local gas company is, will have something to say about who does the work and how it's done.Here's a good summary of the ASME section 9 codes that deal with pressure pipe welding in different situations.http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/as...ping-d_39.htmlIncidentally, this article might be a good read...http://www.thefabricator.com/article...nd-differencesYou see where this gets complicated fast right?  This is why handling the code side of pressure pipe welding is not an easy task for a small operation.Some other things to consider...Make sure you understand the nature of your business relationship with this contractor.  Is he hiring you as an independent subcontractor, or as a temporary employee of his company.  If you're an independent sub, he's going to pay you (commonly know as "1099" for the IRS tax form that is used to report the payment to the government) and not withhold taxes.  It's your responsibility to pay the income taxes correctly.  You'll likely also need your own liability insurance and workman's comp insurance; and in california I'm almost certain you'd need a contractor's lisence and some other lisences from the state.  (read, bend over, here it comes again).  In this situation, the contractor is likely to hand you a stack of prints and say go put in the gas line.  He may have the pipe on hand, but it's up to you to buy the rod and any other tools and consumables needed to do the job.  You have to figure out how to build it too.  If anything goes wrong or isn't done right, it's your responsibility.  On the other hand, if he's hiring you as an employee then it's his responsibility to withhold taxes from your pay, and you'll be covered under his licenses and insurance.  This is obviously the easier way to go and the better way for you to handle this as you're just starting out.  This gives you some protection against any mistakes made, and workman's comp coverage if you get hurt on the job site.  In this case the contractor should be telling you what to do, and supplying all of the consumables and materials.  This is the hard stuff that comes with being in business for yourself.  Often this stuff is harder to deal with than the actual welding.  I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but you need to know what you're getting yourself into.  Fixing lawnmowers and patio furniture for the neighbors, welding autobody sheet metal in your spare time, these are easy and low risk, low reward.  Commerical/industrial work pays much, much better but it's a much higher risk, more demanding type of work.Sounds like your current employer is on the gray fringe of doing work that falls under code requirements.  If you're serious about going into business for yourself, get some business training.  You might also look for a more sophisticated company to work for; one that is doing serious code quality work.  This will help you learn more about the technical side of welding; and likely pay better too.  Figuring all the stuff you need to know about on your own is a serious mountain of work.  It can be done; but sometimes its easier to learn by watching an 'expert' go through the process.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:As someone coming from the Power industry, I will say this - the government has PLENTY of jurisdiction when it comes to welding.The fact is, it varies greatly between industries.  From the Power sector, you both state and Federal regulations that drive the use of ASME welding codes and standards.  Which standard applies depends on the scope of the document.  For structural steel, the government may mandate the applicable design standards (AISC in most instances), which in turn drive you to execute welding per AWS Codes.  Aerospace - completely different.  Food and pharmacy - completely different.  O&G - completely different.  Why?  Because each Code targets different issues and concerns, and the folks who make up those various code committees take those factors into account.  As it pertains to welder qualifications, these folks often have different philosophies.  Some believe welder quals should be more relaxed due to mandatory examination of production welds (RT, UT, etc.), while others are more stringent where the Code has fewer inspection requirements.  There are tradeoffs all around, and there is no one good answer.  One thing is consistent between them - the Codes require that the manufacturer/contractor be responsible for welder qualifications.  Some will accept welders with evidence of existing qualification.  However, the majority of manufacturer quality programs require that they test and certify their welders in-house.  Make no mistake about it - AWS is a for-profit organization, and can be misleading as to what their "certifications" are good for.
Reply:awesome guys! this thread is pure GOLD!I appreciate all of your wisdom and information.I've done plenty of low-pressure gas (mostly falling into OSHPD inspection), so the welding part isn't scary, but the little technical things about me in my own truck on a high-profile job are a bit new and scary.my employer often hires what we refer to as "sub-contractors" these are guys paid in full and expected to 1099 themselves but the workers-comp and liability stuff is all grey area to me. this is where I would like to start but I certainly don't want to be made into a fool doing it. nor do I want to be made into a felon. but I know few of these guys hold licenses. the only one I have met that does have a license only did so so he could bid work and have a crew work for him. im not bidding anything and will just be paid hourlyi'll just drive up there and see how it goes! gotta start somewherebosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevinIt sounds like you need to get into business for yourself.That said if it were my company doing pressure piping, I would want a great insurance policy, and along with that you get what is called an authorized inspector from the insurance company, then you are covered.Millermatic 210Esab 450IThermal Arc 400 GTSW1972 SA200
Reply:well, the gas-job is going fine. having a little trouble getting the ol sa200 to do what I want, but all is good.but, to justify this thread, the gc, and the plumbing company I do the work for, expect me to just go and weld. 6010? 7018? all Chinese to them. I do the best I know, and use 7018 cap. but, I could have run 211 wire on it and nobody would have known the difference. . . . .(long sigh) nobody cares.maybe there is a reason nobody cares, I mean, I could make it hold just fine with whatever I want. . . sil/bronze even. could have used 308l and told them the pretty colors mean its better. . . . .and it would do its job. frustrating that I want to be better, but for 99% of the work I encounter, it makes no difference. today, I welded galvanized, and painted grating to painted structure, with 7018, under the direction of an OHSPD inspector (fer a hospital). the zinc that didn't vape off shows bright and shiny in the welds, and all is well. . . . . .just seems wrongbosses stuff:trailblazer 325maxstar 200my stuff:sa 200fronius transpocket 180100 amp Lincoln w/f97 f350 DITKevin
Reply:Originally Posted by 92dlxmanwell, the gas-job is going fine. having a little trouble getting the ol sa200 to do what I want, but all is good.but, to justify this thread, the gc, and the plumbing company I do the work for, expect me to just go and weld. 6010? 7018? all Chinese to them. I do the best I know, and use 7018 cap. but, I could have run 211 wire on it and nobody would have known the difference. . . . .(long sigh) nobody cares.maybe there is a reason nobody cares, I mean, I could make it hold just fine with whatever I want. . . sil/bronze even. could have used 308l and told them the pretty colors mean its better. . . . .and it would do its job. frustrating that I want to be better, but for 99% of the work I encounter, it makes no difference. today, I welded galvanized, and painted grating to painted structure, with 7018, under the direction of an OHSPD inspector (fer a hospital). the zinc that didn't vape off shows bright and shiny in the welds, and all is well. . . . . .just seems wrong