Whats the better cutter

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I bought a lincoln pm140 because I wanted to learn to weld.  Now I'm building a welder cart and upgrading to gas. I'm sick of the hacksaw for bar stock, and dont have anything for sheet metal. What tools give the most bang for the buck? Also I will be doing alumininimum and steel, can I use 100% argon for both? You only need to be 2% smarter than what you are working on.Lincoln pm140hacksawa big hammer
Reply:C/25 or Co2 for steel, Straight argon for aluminum.Porta band, or better (for me) a harbor freight band saw for about $179.00.  Both will not cut over 6" wide.  For sheet metal, you can't beat a plasma.  A sawzall will work great for anything with the right blade.  DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thanks David. Plasma is what I thought, but its a little pricey. How big of a machine do I need for hobby use? Should I get the band saw with the stand and miter clamp or just hand held? You only need to be 2% smarter than what you are working on.Lincoln pm140hacksawa big hammer
Reply:I'm pretty new to welding myself.  For cutting, I use my jig saw.  It works fairly well with the right metal cutting blade.  Also hack saw and cutting disc with my grinder.  As David R said, there are better options out there.Last edited by PwrTurtle; 06-19-2007 at 03:19 AM.John-----------------------------------|Craftsman 230/140 amp AC/DC BuzzboxSynchrowave 250
Reply:depending on what thickness you want to cut you can try thesehttp://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92115 i have some and they do ok on thinnerstuff350P 30A spool gun cut master 51  syncro 250 other stuff " take a dog off the street and make him prosper and he will not bite you sad the same cannot be said for man" i didnt use punctuation just to piss you off
Reply:Plasma, sawzall, jig saw, band saw, chop saw, circular saw with metal-cutting blade, tin snips, nibbler, shear, oxy-fuel cutting torch, grinder with cut-off wheel, etc, etc, etc.Pure argon would be used for TIG on almost anything.  General MIG welding would use pure argon on aluminum and CO2 or CO2-argon blends on mild steel.  Other gas blends may be used for other materials or different welding parameters, ie using some helium in the mix for use on aluminum, using argon-2% O2 for some MIG on stainless steel, etc, etc.
Reply:Are you saying I need all of that for hobby use, Moonrise? I was hoping I for a recomendation of a couple of tools that would do everything I would need for a while ie. bar stock, sheet, plate, and the same for aluminum You only need to be 2% smarter than what you are working on.Lincoln pm140hacksawa big hammer
Reply:Two cutting tools that will do pretty much any cutting (within the size range): sawzall and 4/5" angle grinder. The tools are not realy interchangable, but just have a nice overlap in skill.Sawzall will do wood and curved cuts, and can dig in a deep pocket and doesn't throw sparks.Grinder can grind (of course), cut with a cutoff wheel (some 4.5's can get better than an inch deep, but I don't recommend it. Bar stock up to maybe 3/4" r 1", and sheet up to maybe 1/8 are very doable), finish dress and polish with a flap disk.
Reply:For faster cutting - chop saw for thick stuff, tin snips for sheet. (inexpensive option) Probably $60 for both if you shop HF. ORBand saw for thick stuff, tin snips for sheet. What is your budget?John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Hey microzone, I dont have a budget in mind. I'm not rich, but I'll buy whatever gets the job done. I was looking at a northern tool 6 inch bandsaw with miter clamp for barstock, and the smaller hobart plasma. Under 1000 for both tools. Pretty sure Ill get the band saw, but I understand that plasma has limits I dont want to buy a unit thats too small. I have a chop saw, sawzall, jigsaw, and about $10,000 in other wood working equipment. I own a handyman business. One thing I know for sure is that woodworking tools are for wood. Yes they do make blades for those tools to cut other materials, but wood tools are not designed to hold up under the stress of cutting metal. I would rather spend the money on some quality metal cutting tools, and get years of hard use out of them. You only need to be 2% smarter than what you are working on.Lincoln pm140hacksawa big hammer
Reply:I have had a dewalt sawzall for many years.  All it has cut is steel. (I don't do wood).  It has lasted longer than I thought it would.  It is variable speed and I run it slow enough so the blade doesn't turn blue.  It cuts sheet and bar stock.  Surprisingly fast.  Last year I scrapped a whole tractor trailer ( the trailer Part) for the aluminum.  I used the sawzall for any structural aluminum and  a 30 amp plasma for the straight runs on the walls.  If you are going to weld, you need a 4.5" grinder.  You can get cut off wheels for a couple of bucks each.  They work nice for one shot cuts.  Anyting that is going to be multiple cuts, a band saw would be better.If you are a wood worker, you know the value of QUALITY tools.  I bought another sawzall and this time I got a porter cable.  Still have the Dewalt on my truck.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I have used a sawzall for metal with lots of success. I go through alot of blades. I have the same dewalt as you. I dont need to be portable. I am looking at band saws. What sort of features should I look for--or not need? You only need to be 2% smarter than what you are working on.Lincoln pm140hacksawa big hammer
Reply:Oh, sorry, I missed your follow-up question.  No, you don't -need- every one of the cuttting tools I listed.  But they all have their uses and strengths and weaknesses.It's all about trade-offs and costs.  Example, for bar stock a hacksaw is simple, portable, inexpensive, and needs no electrical power.  But a hacksaw is slow to use on thick(er) stuff and can't cut hard-hard stuff.  If you don't need portability, then you can look at 'large' shop machines.  Two common machines to cut bar stock are the bandsaw and the abrasive chopsaw.  The bandsaw is usually slower to cut through bar stock than an abrasive chopsaw, but the cut is usually quieter and cleaner than the chopsaw.  The abrasive chopsaw can usually go through hard stock, the bandsaw stock hardness that can be cut is limited by the blade ability and that willl usually be lower than the hardness capability of the abrasive chopsaw.Abrasive chopsaws on 'bar' stock (bar, pipe, tube, channel, angle, etc) are usually pretty fast, pretty loud, and spew grit and sparks and metal around.A sawzall can cut through most materials with the proper blades, but it will usually not be as fast, neat, or accurate as a large shop machine.  But sometimes the portability of the sawzall wins out and the cuts are "good enough" for the task.Plasma is usually fast, it can cut any electrically conductive material and the hardness doesn't matter, but the up-front cost of the machines are high and they have consumable costs as well.  Instead of buying replacement blades or wheels or disks that other cutting tools use, you have to replace the torch parts.  And you have to have electricity to run the machine, and also compressed air, so you need a compressor and piping/hoses and filters, etc to get the compressed air to the plasma cutter.You can use an oxy-acetylene cutting torch to cut carbon steel, but it won't cut stainless or aluminum.  Plasma will cut through any metal, thickness limits will vary depending on the machine's power and the material being cut.To me, a grinder isn't a primary cutting tool.  Yes you need grinder(s) to put wire brushes and wheels in, to put grinding wheels and discs in, to run flap disks and wheels in, and occasionally to run a cut-off disc in.  YMMV.With a bandsaw or other tool with a blade, you have to match the proper blade to the task.  Thin stock needs more teeth per inch on the blade than cutting thicker stock.To just cut long lengths of stock down to the proper length, a horizontal bandsaw will work.  If you want to cut things other than 'bar' stuff on the bandsaw (like sheet or plate or shapes in sheet or plate), then you might want a vertical bandsaw with a work table.  The bandsaw cut size or workpiece size may be limited by the throat depth of the machine and by the blades and the upper-blade guide max height and your abilty to lift and maneuver big or heavy pieces.You can get a carbide tipped metal cutting blade and use it in a circular saw to cut sheet or thin plate (about 1/8 inch or so).  For large, heavy or awkward workpieces, it is often easier to bring the tool to the work than the work to the tool.If you were working with sheet metal a lot and making straight cuts, you might want to get a sheet-metal shear.  Line up the sheet, engage the clamp(s), shear.  Done.If you are doing shaped cuts in sheet metal, you might want a hand-held shear or nibbler.  That might be a $10 pair of 'tin snips' or aviation cutters, or it might be a several hundred dollar powered nibbler.There is no -one- tool that does it all.  Thick, thin, fast, quiet, loud, expensive, cheap, messy, accurate, easy, etc are all trade-offs.Bang for the buck?  I'd say abrasive chopsaw for 'bar' items.  It's usually fast to make the cuts and not all that expensive.  It's loud and spews sparks and grit and may not be accurate enough for your needs.  The small bandsaws are usually a little more money than a comparable quality chopsaw, but they are usually quieter and not as messy.  At least they -usually- don't spew sparks and grit all over!For sheet and thin plate, at the bang-for-the-buck level you have hand shears for sheet and carbide metal cutting blades for thin plate or thick sheet.  If you want one tool to do any sheet metal (steel, aluminum, stainless, copper, any metal sheet) in any shape or size and will size the machine on the upper-thickness end for your plate needs, then a plasma is kind of expensive but oh so useful.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseOh, sorry, I missed your follow-up question.  No, you don't -need- every one of the cuttting tools I listed.  But they all have their uses and strengths and weaknesses.It's all about trade-offs and costs.  Example, for bar stock a hacksaw is simple, portable, inexpensive, and needs no electrical power.  But a hacksaw is slow to use on thick(er) stuff and can't cut hard-hard stuff.  If you don't need portability, then you can look at 'large' shop machines.  Two common machines to cut bar stock are the bandsaw and the abrasive chopsaw.  The bandsaw is usually slower to cut through bar stock than an abrasive chopsaw, but the cut is usually quieter and cleaner than the chopsaw.  The abrasive chopsaw can usually go through hard stock, the bandsaw stock hardness that can be cut is limited by the blade ability and that willl usually be lower than the hardness capability of the abrasive chopsaw.Abrasive chopsaws on 'bar' stock (bar, pipe, tube, channel, angle, etc) are usually pretty fast, pretty loud, and spew grit and sparks and metal around.A sawzall can cut through most materials with the proper blades, but it will usually not be as fast, neat, or accurate as a large shop machine.  But sometimes the portability of the sawzall wins out and the cuts are "good enough" for the task.Plasma is usually fast, it can cut any electrically conductive material and the hardness doesn't matter, but the up-front cost of the machines are high and they have consumable costs as well.  Instead of buying replacement blades or wheels or disks that other cutting tools use, you have to replace the torch parts.  And you have to have electricity to run the machine, and also compressed air, so you need a compressor and piping/hoses and filters, etc to get the compressed air to the plasma cutter.You can use an oxy-acetylene cutting torch to cut carbon steel, but it won't cut stainless or aluminum.  Plasma will cut through any metal, thickness limits will vary depending on the machine's power and the material being cut.To me, a grinder isn't a primary cutting tool.  Yes you need grinder(s) to put wire brushes and wheels in, to put grinding wheels and discs in, to run flap disks and wheels in, and occasionally to run a cut-off disc in.  YMMV.With a bandsaw or other tool with a blade, you have to match the proper blade to the task.  Thin stock needs more teeth per inch on the blade than cutting thicker stock.To just cut long lengths of stock down to the proper length, a horizontal bandsaw will work.  If you want to cut things other than 'bar' stuff on the bandsaw (like sheet or plate or shapes in sheet or plate), then you might want a vertical bandsaw with a work table.  The bandsaw cut size or workpiece size may be limited by the throat depth of the machine and by the blades and the upper-blade guide max height and your abilty to lift and maneuver big or heavy pieces.You can get a carbide tipped metal cutting blade and use it in a circular saw to cut sheet or thin plate (about 1/8 inch or so).  For large, heavy or awkward workpieces, it is often easier to bring the tool to the work than the work to the tool.If you were working with sheet metal a lot and making straight cuts, you might want to get a sheet-metal shear.  Line up the sheet, engage the clamp(s), shear.  Done.If you are doing shaped cuts in sheet metal, you might want a hand-held shear or nibbler.  That might be a $10 pair of 'tin snips' or aviation cutters, or it might be a several hundred dollar powered nibbler.There is no -one- tool that does it all.  Thick, thin, fast, quiet, loud, expensive, cheap, messy, accurate, easy, etc are all trade-offs.Bang for the buck?  I'd say abrasive chopsaw for 'bar' items.  It's usually fast to make the cuts and not all that expensive.  It's loud and spews sparks and grit and may not be accurate enough for your needs.  The small bandsaws are usually a little more money than a comparable quality chopsaw, but they are usually quieter and not as messy.  At least they -usually- don't spew sparks and grit all over!For sheet and thin plate, at the bang-for-the-buck level you have hand shears for sheet and carbide metal cutting blades for thin plate or thick sheet.  If you want one tool to do any sheet metal (steel, aluminum, stainless, copper, any metal sheet) in any shape or size and will size the machine on the upper-thickness end for your plate needs, then a plasma is kind of expensive but oh so useful.
Reply:I used a grinder with zip disks and a chopsaw for many years but the noise dust and cost was driving me crazy. I still used the minigrinder and zip disk for certain thing but not much anymore. I bought a bandsaw a couple years ago that can be used as a vertical or horizontal. Its has saved me a lot of money and been great to used. I also bought a TD Cutmaster 38 plasma cutter which I can't believe I did without. It is the smaller unit which can run on 110 or 220. It has a cutting capacity of 3/8 quality cut and up the 5/8 severe cut.  I guess if I was buying new tools for cutting steel and I could afford them, I would be getting the bandsaw and plasma. Here is the bandsaw I have which I have found to be an awsome machine. I bought the princessauto one in Canada but this one is the same machine.http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/...bCategoryName=Hope this helpsMiller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Thank you guys very much. Moonrise, as always, has more info than I can swallow all at once THANKS. I think I have decided to bet a band saw to start. I cut more bar than anything else. I have a grinder, sawzall,and an old circular I dont care about. Ill buy the right blades and should be good for now. Plasma will be coming soon. I have a 200psi 20gal dewalt compressor. Will that run a plasma? BTW I will have pics of my first welding project soon (welding cart of course). I want to finish it first so I can post all Pics at once, and you guys can critique. You only need to be 2% smarter than what you are working on.Lincoln pm140hacksawa big hammer
Reply:Now that I own a recirocating saw, I can add a bit more. I picked one up for 20 bucks during my last visit to hf. It is definitely a good all-around cutter. It doesn't cut pipe as smoothely as my portable bandsaw. It doesn't cut wood panels as fast as a circular saw. Etc etc. However. it can do it. I do notice that it is easier to make straiter cuts thab with the portable bandsaw, because the angle of the bandsaw gives you little to eyeball the cut strait with. But ike I said, it definitely seems to be a rougher ride, and in the few cuts I've made it dos seem apparent that more work support is needed for the recirc saw, rather than just a mildly tightened vice, or even your foot, for the bandsaw.With that said, I have ordered a pack of metal-cutting recip saw blades for the recip saw, meaning it is replacing the bandsaw essentially, and I have no problem with that.
Reply:The cheap-o HF bandsaw can be a real winner after a few modifications. Check out these threads from when I built a new stand, which is a must because the one that comes with it sucks.http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread...=bandsaw+standhttp://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread...=bandsaw+standhttp://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread...=bandsaw+standAnyway I highly recommend it - for under 200 bucks I think it's a real bargain. BUT you have to make a few tweaks and get a real blade, or you'll hate it.- JohnLast edited by runchman; 06-26-2007 at 01:21 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by MB2005Are you saying I need all of that for hobby use, Moonrise? I was hoping I for a recomendation of a couple of tools that would do everything I would need for a while ie. bar stock, sheet, plate, and the same for aluminum
Reply:I agree on that bandsaw. I splurged on the larger one, but I always point that small one out to anyone who asks.BTW, sorry for all the grammar errors. I've been doing all this from my phone while I wait for a replacement laptop, heh.