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I keep reading that inverter machines are more efficient. they many can be used on 110v input instead of 220v outlet.Just how much energy savings are we talking about over the course of a month, over a year? If it's just a few hundred kilowat hours, no big deal, but if it's tens of thousands???????
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderI keep reading that inverter machines are more efficient. they many can be used on 110v input instead of 220v outlet.Just how much energy savings are we talking about over the course of a month, over a year? If it's just a few hundred kilowat hours, no big deal, but if it's tens of thousands???????
Reply:That said you'd have to do a LOT of welding for it to account for much on your bill.Even at 13,800 watts (which is a MAX draw), you are still talking pennies. Here in Maine we pay $0.15/kwh. So for an hour of continues 200A welding you would pay $2.07. How many of us here lay that much rod in even a month? Even a professional welder probably doesn't have more than that per day. Say you work 5 days/week and 4.5 weeks/month that is $46.58 per month in welding electricity. So best case scenario you would save $23.29 per month. But that is an hour of 200A bead laying every single work day of the month! Most hobby welders (at least someone like myself) probably won't notice more than $1-2/month on welding electricity.
Reply:Originally Posted by joecool85That said you'd have to do a LOT of welding for it to account for much on your bill.Even at 13,800 watts (which is a MAX draw), you are still talking pennies. Here in Maine we pay $0.15/kwh. So for an hour of continues 200A welding you would pay $2.07. How many of us here lay that much rod in even a month? Even a professional welder probably doesn't have more than that per day. Say you work 5 days/week and 4.5 weeks/month that is $46.58 per month in welding electricity. So best case scenario you would save $23.29 per month. But that is an hour of 200A bead laying every single work day of the month! Most hobby welders (at least someone like myself) probably won't notice more than $1-2/month on welding electricity.
Reply:Originally Posted by SnuffyDynasty 200DX @ 200 Amps output is roughly a 30 Amp draw if I remember correctly.30 Amps X 230 volts = 6900 WattsSynchro 200 @ 200 Amps is roughly a 60 Amp draw if I remember correctly60 Amps X 230 volts = 13,800
Reply:I'm just going off the spec sheets from Miller. The math is always the same. I've run my Esab full bore off a 16Amp breaker.That and they were rough guestimates. It was more about the math than anything.NickESAB CaddyTig 2200iPowermax 45MM140 (Sold)
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinAn inverter is TWICE as efficient as a transformer??? I find that hard to believe.Seems to me that if a 200A transformer wasted almost 7kW of energy as heat in the windings, it would need a jet engine turbine running the whole time to cool it.My Sync 250 doesn't even run a fan when it's stick welding.
Reply:You have to take the power factor into account. The transformer units require a lot more Amps, but the power factor can be lousy. If you are paying for kWh, it's not so bad. If you have a commercial rate and are penalized for power factor, then it's not so good."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinAn inverter is TWICE as efficient as a transformer??? I find that hard to believe.Seems to me that if a 200A transformer wasted almost 7kW of energy as heat in the windings, it would need a jet engine turbine running the whole time to cool it.My Sync 250 doesn't even run a fan when it's stick welding.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...ce-clearwater/Bout half way down they break it down
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinHmmm...sounds like a sales pitch to me.I wonder how many hours of arc time you need to put on an inverter machine before you "break even" on the vastly higher price, greater repair costs and (presumably) shorter lifespan it has compared to a transformer machine.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonCertainly power cost is a consideration, but performance cost is too, such as speed, which an inverter increases.
Reply:Originally Posted by SnuffyEverything is give and take.It would be interesting to see a cost analysis over a number of years though
Reply:interesting stuff. funny how that article acts like transformer machines are old and unreliable, when people on this forum tend to say the opposite. I guess whatever spin you put on things to make them seem like it was a good decision. Personally i just want the facts. no need for spin.
Reply:What is a the energy usage of a transformer machine and inverter at idle? You might not be running an arc all day but the machine is likely on and drawing something all day. I suspect a transformer machine uses more at idle.
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinHmmm...sounds like a sales pitch to me.I wonder how many hours of arc time you need to put on an inverter machine before you "break even" on the vastly higher price, greater repair costs and (presumably) shorter lifespan it has compared to a transformer machine.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderinteresting stuff. funny how that article acts like transformer machines are old and unreliable, when people on this forum tend to say the opposite. I guess whatever spin you put on things to make them seem like it was a good decision. Personally i just want the facts. no need for spin.
Reply:It is my understanding the inverter machines use pretty close to the same input watts when they are running at their max. This kind of goes along with the two machines I have a transformer one that the tag says max of 93 or close to that amps input at 230 volts and the inverter one tagged at max input of 67 amps. The transformer one certianly isn't the weaker one, both will burn 3/16 rods way below max.If I really cared I would turn off all the breakers except the welder one read the meter burn 5 or 10 big rods like 7024 that can be burned esentially just by gravity and re read the meter. Maybe some day I will get one of those snap around the wire amp meters which would make producing a graph of input amps vs rod size. I am a little cautious about the output amps and comparisons as there are less output watts at equal output amps when the inverter one is in tig mode due to less voltage and different volt amp curve across the arc.I stuck a volt meter in a dryer socket lately and it varied from 240.1 to 240.2 so I guess it is really 120, 240, etc,.Last edited by fran...k.; 12-28-2012 at 08:04 PM.
Reply:The amount you save on your electric bill will not be significant unless you are in a production environment. What matters to most users are lower current draw at high output current, and being lighter and more portable. A typical 300A transformer welder draws over 70A at full output; a 300A inverter welder will draw less than 50A for the same output, and weighs around 1/3 as much as the transformer machine.Also, inverter welders tend to have a wider range of adjustments (arc force, inductance, pulse frequency, etc) than the transformers.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:In my opinion Inverter power sources have better welding characteristics and are better on power. also lighter in weight and take up less floor space. that's why I use them they're great for small shops with limited resources. the cost difference between an inverter welder and a transformer welder is justified if you need to lower power consumption and workspace. the biggest cost of operating welding shop is not the cost of the equipment it is Labor so if you can save time in labor it will justify the cost of the welding machine.Miller Trailblazer 280 ntS 22 p 12 suitcase wire feeder Miller high frequency box dynasty 200 Millermatic 252 Millermatic 211 Miller XMT 300 Miller spectrum 2050 plasma cutter Cutmaster 42 plasma cutter. Miller dynasty 350
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireWhat is a the energy usage of a transformer machine and inverter at idle? You might not be running an arc all day but the machine is likely on and drawing something all day. I suspect a transformer machine uses more at idle.
Reply:Originally Posted by dj55bAccording to this link:http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...ce-clearwater/Inverter : 0.4ATransformer: 29.5AI never knew that these transformers can draw so much current just at Idle! That is quite a bit, and this will certainly give me a reason to make sure that I've shut off the welder that night, which I've certainly done in the past. Anyone know why a transformer machine draws that much amperage at idle? But draws less during usage? That to me doesn't make much sense.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonThe transformer tigs were obviously outfitted with PFC capacitors. An option that reduces power surges. It is understandable as Clearwater had multiple weldors drawing on limited utility service. A common practice in California.PFC capacitors are like batteries that charge up and discharge on intitial surge when the arc is struck. And then smooth out the total draw so that smaller breakers are needed. Been there done that.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI am an equal opportunity welder killer. I have killed off at least 7 LindeUCC305s, not to mention the same amount of times I had them repaired. I killed off 5 Hobart Cyberwave300s. All of these were tranny tigs.Then I started buying Miller Aerowaves-----Bingo! Aerowaves are Hybrid tranny/inverter tigs. Great productivity, and less power draw to boot. Happily killed off 6 of those(out of warranty of course). I am having just as good reliability from my inverter tigs as I did with tranny tigs. Less maintanance too. No panels to pull for blowout, or points to adjust.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonTo put it in perspective, a 3 phase inverter tig consumes 1/3rd the current as a single phase tranny tig.Originally Posted by SuperArc7+5+6 = 18 welders you've "killed?" What are you doing wrong my friend?Also, I'm not an electrician, but doesn't the electric company charge for kilowatt hours used? Isn't it where voltage use is irrelevant but amperage draw is, as far as one's electric bill? I always thought for example that a device pulling 30 amps at 120V would cost more to the customer than a device running on 240v pulling 15, 20 or even 25 Amps. An Edison employee told me once that the meters measure amperage draw and that voltage draw doesn't matter as far as one's electric bill is concerned. Maybe I misunderstood what he was try'n to say.
Reply:Even though the machine is drawing 29 amps at idle, with pfc, that 29 amps is NOT spinning the meter, read up on pfc.My Squarewave 300 drew 60 amps on idle, but it didn't make the meter spin faster.Another thought on the inverters, you can have more machines running on a smaller main than transformers
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI am an equal opportunity welder killer. I have killed off at least 7 LindeUCC305s, not to mention the same amount of times I had them repaired. I killed off 5 Hobart Cyberwave300s. All of these were tranny tigs.Then I started buying Miller Aerowaves-----Bingo! Aerowaves are Hybrid tranny/inverter tigs. Great productivity, and less power draw to boot. Happily killed off 6 of those(out of warranty of course). I am having just as good reliability from my inverter tigs as I did with tranny tigs. Less maintanance too. No panels to pull for blowout, or points to adjust.
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArc7+5+6 = 18 welders you've "killed?" What are you doing wrong my friend?Also, I'm not an electrician, but doesn't the electric company charge for kilowatt hours used? Isn't it where voltage use is irrelevant but amperage draw is, as far as one's electric bill? I always thought for example that a device pulling 30 amps at 120V would cost more to the customer than a device running on 240v pulling 15, 20 or even 25 Amps. An Edison employee told me once that the meters measure amperage draw and that voltage draw doesn't matter as far as one's electric bill is concerned. Maybe I misunderstood what he was try'n to say.
Reply:Originally Posted by AluminumWelderI keep reading that inverter machines are more efficient. they many can be used on 110v input instead of 220v outlet.Just how much energy savings are we talking about over the course of a month, over a year? If it's just a few hundred kilowat hours, no big deal, but if it's tens of thousands???????
Reply:Originally Posted by AMC724Even though the machine is drawing 29 amps at idle, with pfc, that 29 amps is NOT spinning the meter, read up on pfc.My Squarewave 300 drew 60 amps on idle, but it didn't make the meter spin faster.
Reply:Superarc,A typical residential Watthour meter calculates voltage x current x cosine (theta). Theta being the phase angle between voltage and current. Let's say you have an inductive load like a motor or transformer. There's going to be a phase shift between voltage and current. Take the cosine of the phase angle and that's your "power factor". A power factor less than 1 reduces the Watts at a given current. Commercial and industrial services may measure other things like VA or VARs (volt-amperes reactive) and take that into account for billing."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:So what small inverters are good bang for the buck for home and light shop use?
Reply:Originally Posted by mortimersnerdSo what small inverters are good bang for the buck for home and light shop use?
Reply:Originally Posted by mortimersnerdSo what small inverters are good bang for the buck for home and light shop use?
Reply:Originally Posted by mortimersnerdSo what small inverters are good bang for the buck for home and light shop use?
Reply:Originally Posted by OldendumSuperarc,A typical residential Watthour meter calculates voltage x current x cosine (theta). Theta being the phase angle between voltage and current. Let's say you have an inductive load like a motor or transformer. There's going to be a phase shift between voltage and current. Take the cosine of the phase angle and that's your "power factor". A power factor less than 1 reduces the Watts at a given current. Commercial and industrial services may measure other things like VA or VARs (volt-amperes reactive) and take that into account for billing.
Reply:Rojodiablo, you are absolutely right.I had to put in a 125amp sub panel for my Lincon PT275. Luckily I know how to wire my own residential stuff other wise hiring an electrician would of easily added a Grand to the project. And the copper wire leads were a few hundred dollars. Fortunately I've learned a lot about welding since then I think my next machine (not going to happen soon!) will be a inverter simply because the cost to install another transformer machine will be a lot in coper wire and conduit and labor.
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArc7+5+6 = 18 welders you've "killed?" What are you doing wrong my friend?
Reply:Originally Posted by mortimersnerdSo what small inverters are good bang for the buck for home and light shop use?
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinCurrent (A) isn't the same thing as power (W) or energy (KWh). What we pay for is units of energy (kWh). Around here they run 15 cents each.By the way, they must be referring to a welder with power factor correction (otherwise the welder wouldn't use LESS power when it's welding than when it's idling, which is what their chart shows there) because according to the Miller owner's manual my 300A transformer based machine (Sync 250) only draws 2.0 A at idle not 29.5.Who leaves a welder running unattended all night long? That's like going to bed leaving an O/A torch burning on the bench. Even if you take the possibility of lightning strikes ruining your welder out of the equation, it not only wastes energy, but also is a great way to burn the place down.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloPut it in perspective: snipWhere is the power loss from? Well, look to specs- and actual useage. The Dynasty 300 only needed 40A, 240VAC single phase input. The Idealarc, and the syncros need 90-100A of single phase to deliver max output. snip .
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonWhat I am doing wrong is making money.
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255That's a whole lotta welding. Is there any one machine or brand that tends to last longer and have less problems in your experience?Do you ever sell off used welders before they reach their destiny? I mean in a honest way to someone who understands the amount of time that's on the machine and that it may die at some point soon? That would be a great way for hobby guys like me to get a really great machine at a low cost. It's a win win. I probably will put 150-200 hours a year on a machine. You probably do that in a month. That Dynasty 350 that's got a year left for you might last me a lifetime.
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255This is becoming very very wrong. Get ready to fork some more over to Uncle Sam on Tuesday. Just sitting on your arss would get you alot further and you'd have more welders.
Reply:Originally Posted by fran...k.I still maintain that the savings are not at max output. I quickly using a search (google today) found this pdf file http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o358ae_mil.pdf What I see on page 15 is for some reason they put the max on the left and the eff whatever that is on the right. The max input amps for the Dynasty 300 , the one that isn't 3 phase 50 cycles, shows a max amp input of 81 at what they label 230 volts single phase. I could be misreading but I think you got tricked as the top of that chart has the max on the right and the bottom has max on the left.Fran
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcOldendum and Bluewelders, thank you both for those explanations. dbl612, I have no doubt about production environment and machinery life expectancy. My job(s) outside of cyberspace involve that very fact of life. I'm also not trying to pick a fight here with shovelon or anyone. I'm just dumbfounded at reading how he went through 18 (production or commercial grade) welders. You make a valid point about hobby vs "production" grade welders. I would expect him NOT to be using "hobby welders" as you summed it up. My hat's off because thats some serious hard core welding there for one guy to kill "18" of them. D I look at the big welding production company that's across the driveway (owned by my friend and personal welding "mentor,") at my metal finishing shop. They've been using some of their same welding machines now for years and years. They weld with the same machine(s) (inverter Millers) day in and day out. . I wonder about all of the "old school" welder machines built in past decades that are still "energizer-bunny" strong to this day. Sure stuff and parts wear out from time to time, but 18 with one welder? I'm stumped. Pretty hard core welding and my hat's off to shovelon.
Reply:Originally Posted by OldendumAs noted, it depends on your needs. However, a couple of good buys at the moment are the DC-only Thermal Arc 161 STL and TA 201TS. IOC has the 161STL for $650. and Vern Lewis Welding has the 201 for $835. (delivered prices).
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749You ever have any Syncrowave 500's?Great machines, still have a very viable niche market.
Reply:Lower amp draw was a perk rather than a requirement for me. Power usage in home use will not make or break you. I went with the inverter mostly due to size, weight, required circuit size, and extra adjustments like balance and so on.Hobart Handler 210 with SpoolgunHypertherm PM30 PlasmaHTP 221 Tig WelderHF BandsawHF Auto Dark Helmet |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:57:32