NYSDOT 1" Test Failure Need Advice

admin

Hey guys I took my NYSDOT field welders test a couple months ago and lets say that it didn't go so well. I have been welding for a while now and with the months coming up to the test I was practicing very heavy on the 1" overhead and vertical 22.5 bevels spaced 1/4" apart with 1/8 7018. The Results were as follows:Vertical- SWT(Single Wagon Track slag line in the center of weld root), ISB (Intermittent slag deposits along the bevel), IPR (Intermittent Porosity clusters scattered in the weld root), LOF (Lack of fusion).Overhead- On overhead I had everything I had on the vertical except for IPR.I had numerous DOT certified welders study my welds and how I welded and they all said that I had a great technique and form. On overhead I set my machine 130-135 and do straight stringers. On vertical I like to be 115-118 and I have a weave where I hold my corners for a good second before sweeping across. I did have to take the test at an unknown shop and the machine I wasn't familiar with. But I felt good by testing a few plates and the heat seemed right. I would just love some insight or advice because I really don't understand entirely what was wrong with the coupons and I really want to pass this test and I was told everything I was doing was right. I was told that the main thing is to keep it clean and I made sure of that.
Reply:I think someone in Albany is not doing their job right and it's hurting some exellent welders
Reply:Got any pics of the coupons or of similar welds you've done so the gurus (I ain't one) can check 'em out?
Reply:Dry rods from a rod oven set at the correct temperature?  Before you ask, no, rods fresh from a new, sealed can don't count.  Assuming your technique is sound, then all your porosity and slag issues could be caused by rods that weren't dry or had been exposed and reheated inappropriately.Porosity in E7018 welds is almost always caused by too long an arc length or by moisture contamination in the rods.Did you clean your starts and stops thoroughly with a hammer and brush?  (I'm guessing that NYDOT is one of those tests where you're not permitted to use a grinder with a wire wheel)Slag deposits are almost always a matter of undercut in the toe lines of the weld, with insufficient cleaning between passes.  If your technique is sound, then this might trace back to bad rods.  But this seems highly unlikely to me.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Practice NYSSCM is the only state that wrote a book like this , remember they test all the UT guys and certify them in house and they are only a handfull  !!!! What did you do between passes ?????  No power tools allowed . Stringer beads only .5/32  Lincoln 7018 or 8018 C-3 only.
Reply:The next chance I get I will take a few pics of some welds I did previously.I took the test at a vocational school where they teach high school kids in the morning and in the afternoon. So the rods were already in the oven and heated. I just assumed that they were fresh, but to my knowledge I really have no idea. Not smart on my part I know. I had no stops and restarts, I stretched the rods out as much as I could because I felt that any stops and restarts would just be a possible problem area.They revised the test so now you are able to use a wire wheel. But that is the extent of the power tools. I brought with my a flashlight, set of brand new unopened picks and chisels, a small hammer, my grinder with 2 brand new wire wheels, brand new chipping hammer and wire brush. I made every effort to bring new tools. I had a certified welder tell me that making sure that coupon was as clean as you could get it in between passes was VERY important. So I made sure I cleaned out everything I could see, and ran the wire wheel over every pass more than needed. Pavinsteelman I have a tight weave on vertical and hold my corners pretty heavy, but on my overhead I only do stringers and everything was 1/8 7018 lincoln excalibur rods.
Reply:You did a weave for you whole vertical? I briefly practiced weaves in my local's school, and I found that increasing my amperage steadily as I progressed through the plate helped a lot in with keeping a good puddle. By the time you're at the top of the plate, that's a big weave for 1/8th rod. Maybe the cold corners is what got you.Don't sweat it, that's a hard test. I'm shooting to take it next year.IW Local 580 NY, NY
Reply:Nooo I did not weave the entire gap as I filled in the coupon. I believe i did my root and the next pass right on top of each other, then ran two side by side, then started staggering them as I progressed through the test. So the cover was probably 4-5 beads side by side. I hope I explained that well.
Reply:Oh. Some pictures would really help then.IW Local 580 NY, NY
Reply:These are two pictures I just took the other day. Unfortunately was my first time with a stinger in my hand in quite a few months. Going to be taking the test the 19th of October. Changed my technique a little with a wider weave holding the corners alot longer than I used to. Attached Images
Reply:That arc strike is the first thing that turns me off.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:Cleaning with a grinder w/ wire wheel is allowed.
Reply:That restart is rough, but I'm sure you don't need us to tell you that. Shake the rust off and take a few more pictures when you have a few plates done.IW Local 580 NY, NY
Reply:Hi, if you don't have enough amps on the stick you will get slag in the joint, under the weld surface.That was told to me by a welder almost 50 years a go.You can set the machine to the amperage, but it doesn't mean you're getting it at the stick....you could have a bad earth or the machine setting is out...anything......even bad connections at the welder.Having the cables wrapped round and round and near any steel also reduces the current flow, by making the cables and steel into a crude inductor, especially with AC welding......inductors will block AC, whereas DC will be smoothed but will pass unhindered.Who can test how much amperage you're getting at the stick....no one....unless it's metered.When you are too low on the amps the flux doesn't go fully into a liquid stage, floating on top of the weld, and flakes of it get into the weld pool and as the weld rapidly cools stay there, to be known as slag inclusions, and if the flux doesn't fully melt to form the top shield layer, you get porosity too.The melted flux is much lighter than the melted steel and is designed to protect the weld from the atmosphere, forming a layer on top of the weld, but if the flux isn't fully melted, and at the arc temp it must be liquid, it will become embedded in the weld.Low amps means the weld pool will rapidly cool trapping any slag that hasn't got to the surface.Not being a welder by trade I took this as a word from the knowledgeable one who had been doing it all his life, but it made sense to me, and I always made sure I had the welder cranked up rather than on the down side.BTW, in post #10, the weld zone has been surface cleaned by grinding to get rid of the mill scale, but where is the earth clamp attached to ....another area with mill scale on it........that is a resistance path to low voltage (70 volts?) high amperage current, and although you crank the amps up to what is indicated on the dial, the mill scale will reduce it further.....you need a current draw meter on the welder to indicate how much current is being drawn, no matter what the setting says.I think the inverter type welders have a LCD readout to indicate the current output, so you might get better welds using one of these.......just my guese.....at least if you set it for 150 amps and the inverter adjust the output to deliver 150 amps, that's what you get.One thing I have found out and that is if you weld with too low a current you have a dickens of a job to get all the slag off of the weld....there may be other reasons why this occurs.Ian.
Reply:There's more to it than just density - if slag was only floating to the top, overhead welding would never work. Doesn't mean I know what it is, though.Lincoln 175HD
Reply:My advice is to get rid of the Excaliber 7018 and find some Hobart 7018. It may seem odd but I have never had good luck on a test with the Excaliber wire. Hope you have better luck next time.
Reply:Guys thanks for all the input, that isn't the first time I have heard about the Hobart rods being better than the lincolns. I think alot of my problem was not keeping a steady puddle and just moving up the plate too quickly not getting enough penetration. Thats why I stopped halfway on the picture so I could see I was getting penetration down into the corners. I am taking a few classes at the location right before I take the test so I will have some more pictures next week. Once again thanks a lot for all the help and advice.
Reply:Were you getting any arc blow and thumbnailing effect?I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:not any arc blow, deff have had that in the past but I am unsure as to what you mean by thumbnailing?
Reply:The two usually go hand to hand, thumbnailing is when the rod stars burning back downwards and creates an  effect like a long fingernail at the end of your rod. The end of the rod is ls slightly longer on the top then the bottom at the burnt end of it. Also your bordering with your restart near where they cut the coupon out, bad spot for a restart, your better off marking the plate with a soap stone and stopping in the middle for a restart, then clean the plate and flip it upside down so your ends are always perfectly matched.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Yes I know exactly what you mean the flux on the top portion of the rod gets longer. I feel like I always have that when I have either a shared ground or the clamp is not directly on the work. The DOT test isn't a destructive test, they x-ray the bitch, so you just need to have a 3 inch section of the coupon that is free of imperfections. Thats why I used to try and use 1 rod per pass, but I guess I was shortchanging myself and not holding the corners long enough. Now that I changed my technique and I am holding the corners for just about 2 seconds, I can definitely see the penetration into the corners and I end up with a much flatter bead.
Reply:Thats why I mentioned it. During testing is when everything goes south. Magenetic fields, bad machines all that disapointing crap. So not to throw a curveball into your practice, but if such occurs your better off prepared. Try putting your rod straight in the stinger, and in your opposite hand, hold the rod like a pool stick inbetween your index and middle finger for steering and mobility. If that rod starts thumbnailing and arc blowing, you have all the room in the world to push it downwards and keep your arc at the same angle the whole time, so when you get to the top of your pass your stinger and your plate will be paralell to each other. It's more common to happen with 5/32, but if it does start happening during the test, at least you know you have an option to readjust. Good luck bud I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Very common with welders I used to put through the test shop.  Not pausing long enough on the sides, and moving too slowly across the center of the joint.  You end up humped up in the center, and have a recess/crevice along the weld toes where you'll trap slag.  When you hold longer on the sides and move quickly across the center, you can get a flush to slightly concave weave bead, and are significantly less likely to trap slag.
Reply:Thanks for all the advice guys, I am getting some stick time at the school a few days next week before the test and I will take some more pictures there so you guys can take a look.
Reply:I just assumed that they were fresh, but to my knowledge I really have no idea.If that slag ain't peeling up on vertical 7018 then you have done something wrong...just my thought.Turn 'em and Burn 'em
Reply:Pull from the bottom of the rod oven as those have usually been in there the longest and weren't just thrown back in after class where they sat next to the condensating coke can for 45 mins.I play with Robots and do some welding.
Reply:IMO: Looks like you're welding too hot. If you don't have full control of your puddle, the puddle has control of you(travel speed and consistent weld appearance).OCV + Amperage+ arc length = Arc Voltage(the heat you're welding at)If you're using a Digital welding machine, forget whatever number the machine says. If you weld vertical at 115-120 generally use this as your starting point. You might have to adjust your amps depending on the arc from one machine to the next.Less amperage with a longer arc length will Improve your consistency and you wont be fighting your puddle. And the sooner you strike your next arc the cleaner your stop starts will look.Good luck. Just my 2 cents.
Reply:I tried the DOT test myself. I passed the AWS, then crushed the ASME. I got punched back to reality with the 1" overhead. Got fatigued towards end and I knew I was long-arcing, but as said, grinders are allowed, thought I cleaned it up enough. Wrong! Porosity and some inclusion. I ran stringers 80% of the way, then 3 tight weaves for the rest. Inspector told me the weaves are what killed me....Anything heavy now, stringers, stringers, stringersLincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:just some thoughts as I look at your weld.  first is you need to work on your consistency.  you are a bit lumpy and also with your consistency is your vertical progression needs tightening up.  You should have a straight line at the edge of your pass, not the "steps" you see or "teeth".  you can trap slag in those recesses.  As mentioned in another post you need to hold the sides longer and fill it in.  you will see your pass flatten out.  I also recommend the off hand guiding the rod in to position so you can control the arc strike especially if you aren't using an auto dark hood.  I concur that wet rods will wreck your welding.  I would also bet that you may be long arcing.  I can't prove it by anything I see, but I can say from watching guys learn to weld and from my own experience, if you are not holding the sides and haven't gotten your rhythm down then money is one you are long arcing too.Good luck.
Reply:when did they switch to 1/8" rod ?when i took the test we used 5/32". i failed because of porosity but i saw guys pass who mad nasty welds and i would not hire them to fix a dumpster.you might have better luck if you practice at just running stringers, i heard it works a little betterone more thing, use Lincoln JET LH 78 MR that is a nicer rod to run and its crispy compared to the excaliber they are pushing so much, excaliber is floppy just like mckay 7018.open a fresh can when you take the test even if you have to buy your own good luck
Reply:Your allowed to root with 1/8". Its easier to manipulate toes than with 5/32... Well, for us newer guys....I then 5/32 all the way out. Knowing what I know now, I would have approached the test in a completley different manner. I wouldve waited every few rods for it to cool some, I will never weave on anything but pipe again and I would use a Bernard Short Stub stinger. Those little coupons mixed with a welding booth made for some serious arc-blow...Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:I dont mean to dig this thread up but I just got my test date for feb. 14th. This guy that I am using is telling me completely different things from what I have heard before about the test. He says that he teaches the weave for the test and gets a very good percentage of passers from that. He claims he has above a 50% pass rate where as everyone else I have talked to claims to have around a 10-20%.Can anyone who has actually taken the NYSDOT test and passed tell me what you did? The weave or stringers I just dont know. I get so many different opinions on what will pass and what wont. He claims the wire wheel isnt good either. Saying on the hot steel the wire wheel can actually embed contaminates in it.
Reply:I haven't taken a NYSDOT test, but I have passed 4G 7018 test by x-ray. For me, stringers are the way to go. I was welding with Lincoln excaliber 7018 on a miller XMT 304 set at ~115 amps. I set the plate just above the top of my head, and stood in front of it the plate. The major trick for me was to keep the area where you strike your arc clean of all slag. If not, i wouldn't get a good start. 7018 practically welds itself if you have it set right. If the slag comes right off with little effort, you got it set right. If you really have to peck at the slag it, you could be going too fast, or running too cold. Try to keep your stingers nice and tight, I try to cover 1/2-1/3 of the previous bead. Sorry, thats all the help i can offer.