Mig or Tig for silicone bronze

admin

Hello everyone,     First off, I am a complete newbie as far as welding is concerned.  I am a veteran custom wooden boat builder and up to now have had the great convenience of having a talented pro welder in the shop next door.  I have designed and made all the custom bronze hardware myself with the exception of the welding.  Having a welder friend next door worked out great for me.  His Tig welds on silicone Bronze are absolutely gorgeous.  So there was no need for me to try my hand at it... up till now.  Unfortunately, he has decided to move out of state in a couple of months.      After a few conversations on the subject, my welder friend has offered to teach me to weld.  We both agree it would be best if I bought my own machine and learned on that machine.  Sounds smart to me.  He is very experienced in both Mig and Tig.  He prefers tig for Bronze, but believes that mig machines will also work.  Nearly all the bronze hardware that I make are high stressed pieces (rigging hardware for racing sailboats for example) and will be seen up close.  So it is improtant that the welding be both very strong and hopefully good looking.  I will not be doing a lot of welding, metal work is only a very small part of what I do, perhaps 40-50 hours of welding a year on bronze.       My shop has a significant power supply. 400amp panel, 3-phase power, 220 outlets all over the shop.  I don't see any particular need to have a light weight or portable system, I doubt that I will be doing any welding away from the shop.  I may have an interest in some basic welding on up to 3/16" steel from time to time.  Obviously I would be very carefull in selecting specific bronze alloys.  Silicone bronze is said to mig or tig very well, and any other bronze alloy that I may use will be researched for weldability (certainly no zinc)    My welder friend has suggested sticking with the big two (Lincoln and Miller)... sounds like a smart move.   He thinks a recent but used 220 AC tig machine capable of 175Amps would be about ideal for me.  So I have a few questions.1- Would it be better for me to get a tig machine or a mig?2- Would one or the other typically produce stronger or better looking welds?3- Is the tig worth the extra expense for my situation?4- In reference to learning to weld bronze, which method would be easier for a total newbie like myself to weld well.  I have every intention to practice alot with scrap before doing any real work.5- I am interested in a list of any specific machine recomendations to look for.  Sorry for the long post.  And I really appreciate any thoughts on the subject.George
Reply:i would think Tig just for the control of the weld it's self control of heat and filler material mig would be faster but with less controli weld boat props (alum.nibral.,ss) so i like the control Tig offers
Reply:Sounds similar to my friends views.  He basically said that Tigs weld slower and a were easier to control well for detail stuff.  He said that his welds are more even (better looking) and presumably stronger with the tig on bronze.  Is it fair to say that by the very nature of its slower speed that tig would be easier for me to produce attractive and strong welds once I learn how to use it?  I could care less how long it takes for me to weld something up, it's the quality of the finished product that is more important to me.  The slower the better I figure!Any idea as to how long it should take for me to be able to produce quality bronze welds with a tig given an excellent teacher?  I'd like to think that I pick up on new things fairly quickly.  I do everything form traditional wooden boat building to vacuum bagging cored carbon fiber laminates.  I really enjoy the challenging stuff.  Hopefully I will get the hang of tig welding fairly quickly.    George
Reply:TIG, for all the above.
Reply:as far as how long if you are a fast learner it shouldn't take long i picked up tig rather quickly.. but learned to gas (o/a) weld before stick welding  or mig.
Reply:Thanks for the advice.  Sounds like the tig will be the smart move.  I suppose the bigger question now would be a to narrow the welder choices.  I'd most likely be looking for a machine a few years old in good shape.  My professional welder friend seems to think I wouldn't need anything more powerful than a 175amp machine for the kind of welding I have in mind.  He also suggests a Miller or Lincoln for servicability.  I have plenty of power supply with 220 and 3-phase on hand.  I'd love to hear a recomendation or two of specific models to look out for.Thanks,George
Reply:You may find older, larger, heavier, 3 phase equipment is cheaper because the majority of hobbiest and small shops don't have 3 phase.   E-bay and Craig's List.
Reply:I have heard that about older 3-phase tigs being a good deal.  I don't mind older equipment, as most of my heavy wooden boat building machinery averages over 50 years old.  I have plenty of room for a larger machine and plenty of 3-phase to run it.       I have also heard a good number of people who suggest that the designs of the newer tig machines have made them easier or more flexible than the older stuff.  Is that the case?  Certainly they have been getting smaller for their power, but that is of no particular concern for me.  I don't particulrly see the need for a multi purpose machine either.  Plasma cutting, mig along with the tig, etc.  I imagine that a straight 3-phase tig would be just fine.  A 220 machine would be nice as I could use it at a different location at some point, but 3-phase equipment is great as I don't have to worry about anyone wanting to borrow it .  I assume that it would be very important to stick with big name brand stuff if I went to an older machine (Miller, Lincoln).           So I guess my new question would be are the latest model tigs functionally better(or more convenient) machines to work with (or easier to learn on) and therefore worth the extra $, or would an older 3-phase tig weld just as good and be a better deal for me?  I'd rather not spend a fortune on a welder that I will use at best 30 or so hours a year, but it is important to me that I get a good used machine that will be capable of producing quality bronze welds once I learn hows to do it competently.  I believe that I will also be signing up for a welding class at the local tech school, I stopped by and the instructor seemed to be a good guy to learn from as well as my welder friend.  The more practice the better!     Thanks,George
Reply:George,The newer TIG machines may be inverter-based and electronics-rich, which means they are smaller and lighter and more electrically efficient and have more electronics inside them than the older, heavier, transformer-based machines.  Digital electronic displays instead of just dials and knobs.  The newer machines might let you have more and more kinds of controls about the voltage and current and their possible waveforms (unbalanced square-wave AC TIG for use on aluminum, for instance).But the older machines will still generally weld.  Just not as 'fancy' as the newer machines.  I don't think bronze would -need- the fancy wave controls.  Just a good amount of amps, especially if the bronze is on the thicker side!But wouldn't "high stressed pieces (rigging hardware for racing sailboats for example)" be better made of a marine-grade stainless steel?  Which could still use TIG as the welding method.
Reply:I just welded some bronze with sil bronze and my mig and i didn't like how it welded and it sure wasn't strong if strength is an issue. Now if it was just a filler to fill in low spots and buff them smooth i would use it with my mig. So i will keep it for sheetmetal repair...BobBob WrightSalem, Ohio  Birthplace of the Silver & Deming Drillhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbend10k/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sawking/1999 Miller MM185 w/ Miller 185 Spoolmate spoolgun
Reply:For what you want, Tig is the best way to go.The only advantage to mig is that its faster- which might mean something if you were doing it 8 hours a day, production.But you arent.And with Mig, you would have to buy a huge roll of wire, at a very high cost.With tig, you can buy filler rod a pound at a time, at least around here.Mig is messy, hard to see what you are doing, tends to have sloppy starts and stops, and just plain overkill for a few delicate marine fittings.Tig is quiet, clean, precise, and just perfect for what you are doing.As for new versus old- I run one of each in my shop, and, for stuff like this, either would work. You probably dont need the degree of control over arc characteristics a modern inverter provides.But you might like the small size, weight, and ease of use of an inverter.An inverter will take smaller, cheaper breakers and wiring, use less power, and just be more efficient.If you are buying an older, transformer style tig machine, I would stick with Lincoln or Miller, and try to go back not much farther than 20 years or so.The off brand orphans, like Airco, Linde, P&H and others are cheap for a reason- no support, no parts, no repairs available in most places. And the really old Miller machines have idiosyncracies of their own- like only working with vintage foot pedals that cost $350.If it was me, I would first take a course at the tech school.Then, with a bit of experience under my belt, I would go down to the local welding supply, and test drive and price different new machines. Then, compare that with available used machines.I would definitely want High Frequency built in, and I would bite the bullet and get an AC/DC machine, even if I wasnt planning on doing aluminum- they are usually the better built, higher end machines.I would want a water cooled torch, as copper alloys can really heat up.And you need a fair amount of amps. Assuming some parts are an inch or two thick, I would want at least a 200 amp machine. An older Syncrowave 250 would be perfect, or a new Dynasty 200.
Reply:Is all your work in the factory though?I agree with all the above posts , Tig would be my vote .A AC/DC will do aluminium which you may consider but your getting into 3 phase, a single phase will allow on site welding.A good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:You guys are really helping me out here ...I appreciate it.Moonrise-   I'm glad to hear that you think an older tig machine can do what I need for bronze.  I will definitely be looking for a Miller or Lincoln machine regardless of age (less than 20 yrs old for sure).  I'm glad that people here are confirming what I had suspected (mostly from my pro welder friend's advice)  As far as the high stressed items made of bronze, I both want to and have no choice. The wooden boat fleet that I am involved in is a very competitive racing group with over 12 of these 28ft. catboats out there racing based on a 1923 design.  They are very serious when it comes to keeping the fleet traditional in nature, including the hardware.  Stainless wasn't available in the 1920's.  The class rules are 25 pages long (in small print) and written by the fleets own tradition NAZI.  And that Nazi is me.  I am the fleets official class measurer and unofficial class historian.  I have already built(with two friends of mine) one of these catboats, the Witch, and have restored several others (Tamwock, Wasp, etc).  If you are interested, go the barnegatbayacat.com and look at the Witch page.  That will be me in the blue shirt some 7 years ago when we built her.  Another great site is Bayhead.com created by a professional photographer who takes great shots of us racing.       We have built more than 50 wooden boat spars, mostly for racing type sailboats.  We made custom silicone bronze hardware for all of them.  Other than the ones that were bronze sand castings made from my forms, all of them were pieces that I designed, layed out, cut, bent, prepped, etc. then had my pro welder next door do all the tig welding.  His work is gorgeous!  I doubt that I will ever be able to weld that good.  Nearly all the pieces are stressed hard on a regular basis, and his welds have never had a single failure.  Unfortunately, he will be moving out of state in less that 6 months so that was all the excuse I needed to learn a new skill.  So bronze it must be.Ries-   I would prefer an AC/DC machine as well.  Though it is not on my to- do list right now, having the ability to weld aluminum down the road would be a welcome option.  As far as efficiency, if you are referring to electrical consumption($), I doubt that my relatively small usage of the machine would make much difference either way.  I have heard about the water cooled torches.  I'd like to learn more about them.  Very few of my hardware pieces have more than 6 inches of weld on them total.  A few have a few sections of a few 12 inches or so tops.  Does the water cooling make much difference with such small runs of weld?  As far as tech school, believe it or not, my fiance is interested in taking the course with me!  I'm a lucky man ...she is pretty, smart, and not afraid to get her hands dirty!  She's probably too good for me .  WE should be signed up for the class by next week. For all the hardware I have built so far, I have never used anything thicker than 1/2" bronze.  Mostly 1/16" to 1/4". stuff.  My guy suggested a tig machine for up to 175amps.  Do you think I should look for something a little bigger?  Thanks,George
Reply:Brett-  Thanks for the thoughts.  A single phase would be more convenient for sure.  I have 220 and 3-phase available in the shop.  As I primarily work on wooden boats in my shop, so far I don't forsee a need to take a welder with me, but you never know.  As far as aquiring a good used welder, I have had very good luck picking up high quality used 3-phase machinery in the past for great deals simply because very few people out there had the power supply to use it.  Would it be fair to assume that it would be the same in the used welder market?  If I could find a used 3-phase machine that would be significantly less expensive than a similar powered 220 machine, I would probably not hesitate to restrict myself to the shop.  Actually I have a real nice rotary phase converted good for up to a 5hp rated 3-phase motor.  I imagine I could bring that with me in a pinch to convert 220 to the needed 3-phase.  Thanks for the thoughts,George
Reply:Originally Posted by gschuldYou guys are really helping me out here ...I appreciate it.My guy suggested a tig machine for up to 175amps.  Do you think I should look for something a little bigger?  Thanks,George
Reply:Thanks for the thoughts Brett.  I just run across what looks to be a real nice shape Miller Bobcat 225 generator/tig welder AC/DC. with an 8000 watt continuous generator.  I am in the process of building a new house (very near the flood zone) in an area that gets occasional extended power outages.  I was considering buying a sizable generator to put on a small trailer for a back up to hook into the power panel in an outage and for possible mobile uses.  The 8000 watt generator from the Miller would be plenty to suit that purpose.  He says that it was recently serviced by a Miller tech and he is asking $800 for it.  New ones of that model are near 4 grand.For the realatively few times that I would be using it for welding, I don't mind either using it outside or working indoors with it right outside.  Does this machine sound reasonable for me?George
Reply:Here are a few suggestions.1.Take a welding class or two concurrently with the training the welder is willing to give you.   This does a couple of things.   It exposes you to differing opinions and perspectives on the educational process.   Second; it allows you to try out different machinery.2.Be careful with buying old TIG equipment.   The issue I have, is that they all have to some extent or another have some electronics or electrical components inside and eventually they become a replacement issue.3.Do your research on needs carefully.   The last thing you want to do is to under buy a welder as one that is to small is next to useless.    Catalog all the components that you currently make, with the sizes of the materials (especially thickness) and get advice from multiple people.   I've seen some pretty heavy Bronze pieces in boats and wonder if you are already looking at welders that might be too small.   Further if you are buying a welder consider everything you might reasonably want to weld that goes on a boat.    For example if you work with any Aluminum you can figure on one Amp per thousands thickness plus a few amps.4.You might want to consider just finding another weldor to do the work.    For you light usage this might make sense.   Don't get me wrong in the long run it is probably sensible to have your own welder but the out lay is significant.5.That out lay includes things like gas (cylinder rentals), safety equipment, compliancy, facilities equipment for the process and other stuff.    The facilities equipment includes ventilation, welding bench(s), air, water, grinders and such.Now all of the above isn't meant to stop you from getting yourself set up just that it is not going to be quick or cheap.    I see 2 months to set up a welding operation and train yourself as being very tight.    Of course you may have much of what is required for a welding both already.In any event post some pictures.    There are whole web groups devoted to people who weld up their own boats so it wouldn't hurt to see some parts.Dave
Reply:Wizard69,     Thanks for the thoughts.  My fiance and I will be signed up this week for a 12 week (once a week) class at the local VoTec school.  I will also be hitting up my welder friend for some one on one time as well.  I was thinking I would take a few classes before I went to see him.  He is a very hard working guy so I wouldn't mind getting my feet wet in the basic stuff before bothering him as a total newbie.  I am a big fan of learning as much as I can before I formally get started.  If anyone recommends a good "learn to weld" type of DVD or book/DVD combo I would certainly be interested.  I'd much rather go into a welding class with a somewhat working understanting of the theory and terminology.  Unfortunately, I believe that a good used machine makes more financial sense considering how little relative use the machine will get.  The machine I am looking at is a Miller Bobcat 225 from 1999.  It has 2653 hrs on the meter ...a good bit ...and uses about a quart of oil every 8hrs.  The machine is being sold by a Miller service tech friend of my Pro welder friend.  The tech says the welder works great and was happy to offer to fire it up and run some weld beads for me on different settings and materials.  Nice I thought.  He said the generator runs great, just slightly tired.  It was clearly covered or kept inside as it still looks great.  If I ran the generator for 100 hours a year I would be surpriced.  So the machines one serious potential detriment doesn't seem to be such a big deal for me.  He is even willing to do a partial trade for a nice extra 220 tablesaw that I have to bring the price down to just a few hundred bucks (I got the table saw for free).  I was in the market for a back up generator for the house and miscelaneous and I have plenty of indoor space to store it on the small 1000 lb capacity trailer that I already have ready to dedicate for the job.  My welder friend has multiples of welding accesories(he replaces with new stuff on a regular basis) and he is willing to hand over all kinds of stuff to me.  I have a nice small metal table with a 1" thick aluminum top so I have or can get for free most everything I need.  That's one of the things that attracted me to the idea of doing my own welding.     I have considered simply finding someone else to do the welding for me.  My problem is that my work tends to leave me with making a piece or two here and need it right away, then another piece or two, with weeks or months in between.  The convenience of having my guy next door was great.  Some of the pieces I make need to be welded, than worked and shapped or pieced added, then welded again.  Going back and forth 10 miles or so away every time doesn't sound so great to me.       Time to set up the shop is no big deal.  I have probably 6 months before I would need to be set up.  After Christmas I will get over to the shop and take some pics of what I have made(minus the welding anyway) so you guys can get an idea of the kind of parts that I make.  I guess I have to figure out how to post pics of a forum (I'm not anything close to a computer genius)Thanks,George
Reply:"So it is improtant that the welding be both very strong and hopefully good looking."
Reply:I have to wonder if, from a business sense, it makes sense to even try to do this in house if the demand is as light as you indicate.   I know it is great from the perspective of personal enrichment but does it really make business sense?    I don't really know at the moment.The advantage of finding another good professional welder is that you avoid the capital expense and he will always be sharp as far as welding skills go.   The only trick here is that you have to find someone that produces the kind of quality that you are looking for.   There are likely other advantages and disadvantages but you will have to weigh them.I don't mean to sound negative as I'm more like you in personality, that is do it myself, than different.   At work this sometimes causes issues, err with management, that if I sit back I realize they are right.   You can't do everything yourself and the pros sometimes have advantages over your generalized knowledge.On the other hand get your self a good welder and you can start making metal boats.   Now that would be neat.Dave
Reply:Tanglediver,     It looks like I will be acquiring a 1999 Miller Bobcat 225, gas powered generator/welder.  Stick, Mig, Tig, gas powered (Onan 8000 watt generator).I will find out for sure on Friday.  As it turns out, my pro welder friend has the exact same machine (1yr newer and owned since new) for his portable work.  He loves his, and his has considerably more hours on his machine than the one I will likely be getting.  So he knows every inch of that machine ...very handy.  As he has offered to teach me personally on my own machine, that should be convenient for both of us.  Perhaps I will end up doing more welding than I first thought ...who knows!  The 12 week welding classes start up in a month.         Wizard69,     I totally see your point as far as to whether farming out the welding makes more sense.  The answer in the end is probably yes.  I can accept that.   I suppose that I should have mentioned the other reason I want to do it.  Welding is something that I have been interested in learning for some time.  I enjoy the challenge of learning to do something new and do it well.  I don't expect that doing the welding myself will end up saving me tons of money or time after all is said and done.  But there is a part of me that wants to be able to say that I made all the hardware myself.  I do about everything else myself.  I design, cut, fabricate, machine, prepare for welding, and install all the hardware, but since I don't weld the stuff up, I can't say to myself that I made it.  That just takes some of the fun away from it for me.  I suppose I have issues.       I don't think that I will be putting the woodworking tools away to concentrate on building boats out of metal.  There are beautiful aluminum and steel boats out there, just not my thing.  Take a look at www.barnegatbayacat.com and look at the Witch page (a boat we built) and you will probably see what I mean. Thanks for all you input and I hope Santa got everyone what they wanted.George
Reply:Boy, a bobcat is sure not what I would pick.Yes, technically it will do tig.But only scratch start, with no High Frequency, no solenoid for gas flow, not even a socket for plugging in a foot pedal.For a very skilled tig welder, on a jobsite, you can make this work to tig weld.It is, however, the last welder I would pick to tig weld bronze hardware that must be perfect in the shop.Besides being noisy and smelly, its really a low end jobsite stick welder- and thats what it was designed to do. Anything else, especially tig, is an afterthought at best.I have done a LOT of site tig welding of fancy stuff- and we use a trailblazer, instead of a bobcat, and add on a high freq box, a water cooler, and use a foot pedal and watercooled torch. This works great. But even for site work, I would skip the bobcat.The only thing going for it is price, and, frankly, for what one goes for used around here, you can usually pick up a used tig machine. Me, I would keep looking for a nice used syncrowave, or a dynasty.
Reply:Ries,     Thanks for the thoughts.  You have brought up some very good points.  I have been trying to learn as much as I can about the tig process lately.  There seems to be a significant difference between the machines and their capabilities.  I will certainly admit to underestimating the differences between the machines.  Water cooling, foot control, high frequency, AC/DC, etc.  There is certainly more to it than making sure the machine provides the amperage you need and the it CAN tig.  The Miller Bobcat 225 stuck out primarily because of it's generator feature.  I am building a new house in a location that occasionally looses power for a day or two (storm related).  It may only happen once a year or so, but it has proven to be very expensive not to have one as I have had a bad experience or two.  Now that we are planning to have kids within the next 18 months, I will have the new house's panel supply wired to a to a heavy gauge generator cord.  The price is down to 400 bucks including a trade for something that cost me nothing.  To me, it's probably worth it for the 8000watt generator's piece of mind alone.  I now have 3 people that I know at this point that will gladly take it off my hands if I want to resell it for what I'll get for it.  At least I have a few options.     The more I learn about all this on my own, along with the invaluable help of you guys, it is clear to me that I will end up getting a more porpose built non generator (probably Miller)tig welder, such as the dynasty or syncrowave as you suggested.  I don't mind having this one (the bobcat) around as long as it runs alright and picking up a more suitable machine before too long.  Maybe my tool hoarding issues have expanded to welding tools? George
Reply:Originally Posted by gschuldHello everyone,     First off, I am a complete newbie as far as welding is concerned.  I am a veteran custom wooden boat builder and up to now have had the great ............(SHORTENED)George
Reply:For $400, the Bobcat is a great deal, and will work fine as an occasional generator, probably better than any other $400 generator you will find.So BUY THE BOBCAT!Just realize it is not going to be a great tig welder, and certainly not the easiest to learn on.I think you will have a whole lot better understanding of what you need after your welding classes.Ries,     I agree with you totally.  The help that I've gotten here has been great!  For 400 bucks I can't really go too wrong I figure.  My pro welder would even buy it for himself for that price as a back up if I changed my mind.  Just curious, how do you feel about the Miller HF-251D-1 High-Frequency Arc Starter and Stabilizer #042 388.  This is what Miller recommends to improve the Bobcats tig welding capabilities.  Gives HF, plug for foot control, easier starting/stopping, etc.  New they are around 800 bucks, but I've located several used units that appear to be in nice shape for around 200 bucks or less.  I can get my hands on a nice used (and free) foot control!  Worth it for that machine?  Do you think that it would make the bobcat reasonably campatable in tig welding performance to a syncrowave or dynasty (never mind the noise, exhaust smell, and inconvenience of an engine driven welder)? I am looking forward to those classes.Thanks again,George
Reply:Donald,      Thanks for the spelling correction.  I have my head totally up my a$$ once in a while.  You certainly have a valid question about whether I should be welding high stressed rigging pieces.  I have designed bronze hardware for sailboat rigging with what I would consider a pretty reasonable safety margin.  For example I make sure that all fittings carrying any serious loads have a significant weld area and are also backed up with machanical fasteners rated to handle the loads if welds break for some reason.  I'd like to think that I am fairly diligent when it comes to making strong fittings (so far of all of them not a single failure).  I would however, not hasitate in the least to have someone else do the welding if I feel that my welding skills are not up to the task.  I take a lot of pride in my work, but my pride won't get in the way of a quality finished product.  I will simply try to be the best welder that I reasonably can, learn as much as I can, and practice till I'm happy with my work and very profesional welders agree.  If I can't achieve that, I won't weld a single piece on one of my projects.      I appreciate all input, positive or otherwise.George
Reply:Scratch the Bobcat!Although you have 3-phase, go for a single phase machine. Once you learn to weld, you'll want to use it in more places that your shop! Also, make sure to choose one with high frequency start. A scratch start would work, but it won't be as clean as a HF start since it touches metal to draw the arc. AC/DC output is also desired if you think you'll do aluminum one day.You may also want to consider an oven for pre-heating parts you will weld. An old kitchen range will work well. Preheating will certainly make things easier and cleaner.