I need some advice on my TIG work

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So I am getting better - but not great.I welded up some 1.75" OD tubing today - it's probably 16 - 18 gauge stainless 304L.I just can't get amazing results.  I am running a Victor flowmeter at 17 cfh, WP9 torch w/ #8 nozzle w/  gas lens, 1/16" 2% lanth tungsten, 0.035" 308L filler, and about 52A modulating with my foot.  I also started backpurging.What could I do better here?Dual WG Setup by Jon Kensy, on FlickrDual WG Setup by Jon Kensy, on FlickrI am wiping everything down with acetone real nice before welding.  All new tubing.  I just feel like I am missing something that's keeping me from getting great looking welds.I had this flange come out decent:WG Dump by Jon Kensy, on FlickrNot great, but respectable I suppose.Any suggestions?Oh, this is on a Miller Diversion.Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Better picts of the beads would help. Can't really see much of anything in those picts as far as the welds themselves are concerned. Best of the bunch would be pict #2 and the weld front and center looks way low. Other than that it's tough to make out enough details to give any decent info..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:The colors look very good. But what I would want to see is the inside. I like to see a nice melting.#8 cup, I would recommend 20 to 22 cfh, but again the colors look good.The bead is way under the surface, like you are not adding enough rod. I would run another pass. In fact you could call what you have your root pass. Zank on this forum does high end bicycles. I think the titanium work uses an autongenous root pass, then a homogenous cover pass after it has cooled. Myself, I am heavy handed on the weld, and use larger filler. But you do nice work when it comes to the fit.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:DSW - click the image they're huge.  You can go full res they're like 5000 pxLike so:http://www.flickr.com/photos/6703186...n/photostream/Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonThe colors look very good. But what I would want to see is the inside. I like to see a nice melting.#8 cup, I would recommend 20 to 22 cfh, but again the colors look good.The bead is way under the surface, like you are not adding enough rod. I would run another pass. In fact you could call what you have your root pass. Zank on this forum does high end bicycles. I think the titanium work uses an autongenous root pass, then a homogenous cover pass after it has cooled. Myself, I am heavy handed on the weld, and use larger filler. But you do nice work when it comes to the fit.
Reply:I think it's pretty good looking! Maybe try another pass? I don't know just guessing. I swear some of these guys have this super simple secret to getting good looking stainless welds.Did you do a few welds and let it cool completely so it doesn't wrap or is there another trick? I'll be doing some of this pretty soon.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI think it's pretty good looking! Maybe try another pass? I don't know just guessing. I swear some of these guys have this super simple secret to getting good looking stainless welds.Did you do a few welds and let it cool completely so it doesn't wrap or is there another trick? I'll be doing some of this pretty soon.
Reply:Got it. I'm wondering if you are managing to maintain a consistent torch angle in relation to the tube surface the whole time. The fact the puddle goes from tiny to large repeatedly makes me think this may be part of your problem. You should be able to rotate the torch as you go around the outside so you keep the angle consistent throughout the section you are welding. Lots of guys try to weld "flat" on a round surface. That usually means they start out with the arc in close, and then long arc it as they travel along. Then they reset themselves and repeat the process..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Clamp it to another flange or to the wastegate itself?Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWGot it. I'm wondering if you are managing to maintain a consistent torch angle in relation to the tube surface the whole time. The fact the puddle goes from tiny to large repeatedly makes me think this may be part of your problem. You should be able to rotate the torch as you go around the outside so you keep the angle consistent throughout the section you are welding. Lots of guys try to weld "flat" on a round surface. That usually means they start out with the arc in close, and then long arc it as they travel along. Then they reset themselves and repeat the process.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleClamp it to another flange or to the wastegate itself?
Reply:A buddy of mine taught me a great drill for working on round tubing. It helps teach the muscle memory of moving in arcs rather than flat as DSW describes. Take a beer bottle and lay it on a table. Take your TIG torch, remove the tungsten, and make like you are going to weld around the circumference like you are with your butt welded stainless tubing. You want your usual 75-80* angle. Hold the bottle with your left hand, rest the cup on the bottle, barely prop your on the bottle, and start "welding". If you try to weld "flat", the cup will slide off the bottle. If you rotate your wrist, keep your torch angle, and move in an arc, you will be able to keep the cup in contact with the bottle and it won't slide. This exercise has helped me tremendously with keeping a consistent arc length around a joint. And yes, I think it's better to do shorter runs that are correct. The longer runs will come. I also push filler more than just dabbing. Keep that puddle satisfied! Anyway, hope that might help!
Reply:Little more gas, little more rod. Looks good.
Reply:My sister bought me a large gas lens #12 cup for my bday (she had no idea wtf it was I just asked for it lol).  So that should give me more coverage and I can crank the gas up.Whats typical for a #8 cup in CFH?  Whats typical for #12?Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Practice. Some people it takes years to accomplish what you are looking for. There are secrets but some people like to keep those to themselves which is fine because usually it's something they figured out on their own and to share it would be too easy for the next guy...For example: John Marcella doesn't share his secrets but I know he's got some techniques that makes his work who he is and what he's famous for...Miller Dynasty 200Millermatic 211Instagram?.... find me @ WELD_MEDIC
Reply:Hi,I am only a second semester welding "student," and I am in no position to offer TIG welding advice.  With that said, I know that if I can prop on something, my welds come out much nicer.  One product I came across, which you may have already seen (and may even be using), is the "TIG Finger."  I am wondering if this is something that might just help you.Check it out:GarLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:Thanks Gar I do  have one but in this case it isn't really necessary as I am welding around 50-55A so nothing gets unbearably hot by any means.Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelon Myself, I am heavy handed on the weld, and use larger filler. But you do nice work when it comes to the fit.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jon KMy sister bought me a large gas lens #12 cup for my bday (she had no idea wtf it was I just asked for it lol).  So that should give me more coverage and I can crank the gas up.Whats typical for a #8 cup in CFH?  Whats typical for #12?
Reply:I did some 1.625" tubing when I was working on my long tube headers, and yup it's difficult compared to welding flat.Let me ask....do you use a medium or short back cup?  Is your power/gas hose relatively light?  or is it a heavier sucker?  The reason I ask is that IMHO, comfort has a lot to do with being able to properly manipulate the torch in order to continuously curve it's path in free-space in order to maintain a constant arc angle to the workpiece.  Sure practice of course helps, but try holding an imaginary torch (or something super-light like a drinking straw) in your torch-hand and see how much easier your hand can move around the circumference of the tube and keep the arc/torch angle constant.  Betcha it's easier!   I personally "snake" the hose behind my neck and wear it almost like a scarf to minimize the weight felt in my torch hand with the WP17 torch I use.  I also learned to use the medium and short back cups in order to get my head close in there while still [trying to] rotate the torch around the pipe to maintain the arc angle without the long back cup hitting my helmet and getting in the way.  May sound ridiculous, but hey whatever works!  Last edited by Oscar; 02-09-2013 at 03:06 AM.
Reply:Jon,I think your beads look great.  A few more years and you'll be like Mikegyver.  Did you see his headers in the project section?Guys a machine.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonRemembering that a #8 cup is 8/16" or 1/2" ID, a # 12 is 3/4"ID. I flow some 20 to 22cfh thru a #8 cup, so #12 I like to flow 30 to 35CFH. You can get a little better coverage with a gas lense.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jon KYeah I saw Mikegyvers  welding and I almost sold my TIG afterward lol
Reply:Back purge 22 - 30 cfh (more if fit up isn't tight) with 1/8 dia outlet. 35 amps, no pedal modulation. Action is all in the wrist.We offer correct, cheap and fast. Pick two.Weldanpower G800XMT 304Syncrowave 250Millermatic 135Maxstar 91Heliwelder 4A/DDR 224/HPA/BHFT Plasma
Reply:How many CFH do I run backpurging?Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 ExtremeOriginally Posted by Jon KHow many CFH do I run backpurging?
Reply:and of course there's always this if you don't have a second argon bottle and/or don't wanna do splitters
Reply:Attached is a trimmed section of the full size imageof the butt weld joint. I'd think this is self-explanatory.http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1360464007 Attached ImagesBlackbird
Reply:I tried out my new #12 gas lens on the WP-9... but not sure whats going on really.I pulled my amperage way down to like 40 - 50A and I am getting weird coloring:IMG_0271.jpg by Jon Kensy, on FlickrYou can see that half way through my beads I get a change in color - anyone know whats up with that?Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:At the end of your weld you keep gas coverage on the same spot. Notice how there is a nice colorful area that is the size of your cup? Could be the torch angle too.Also, I've tried the solar flux, great stuff, but not a fan for the projects that you do....Last edited by tig_21; 02-10-2013 at 12:46 AM.Miller Dynasty 200Millermatic 211Instagram?.... find me @ WELD_MEDIC
Reply:Yeah I get ya - so is there an easy way to resolve this?Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Originally Posted by zankA buddy of mine taught me a great drill for working on round tubing. It helps teach the muscle memory of moving in arcs rather than flat as DSW describes. Take a beer bottle and lay it on a table. Take your TIG torch, remove the tungsten, and make like you are going to weld around the circumference like you are with your butt welded stainless tubing. You want your usual 75-80* angle. Hold the bottle with your left hand, rest the cup on the bottle, barely prop your on the bottle, and start "welding". If you try to weld "flat", the cup will slide off the bottle. If you rotate your wrist, keep your torch angle, and move in an arc, you will be able to keep the cup in contact with the bottle and it won't slide. This exercise has helped me tremendously with keeping a consistent arc length around a joint.
Reply:I'll take a picture when I get into the shop tomorrow.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jon KI tried out my new #12 gas lens on the WP-9... but not sure whats going on really.You can see that half way through my beads I get a change in color - anyone know whats up with that?
Reply:Originally Posted by Donoharmwhy this obsession with coloring? IT doesn't matter , you need first to get (much)better puddle control then worry about discoloring...all the pictures you see from professionals with perfect beads and perfect colors are made on series parts and they have done thousands of welds before that
Reply:Originally Posted by Jon KBecause  many of my welds were starting out grey which is poor.I don't want to learn to drive a bike and then realize it's missing a wheel.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donoharmyou just try to do a whillie before you can corner...and grey is not as poor as you may think
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonWhy would you say that? Grey is to be avoided. It is an indication of extreme oxidizing. Black, which comes after grey is just short of sugaring, which is forbidden in food aplications. You are risking premature corrosion, and possible cracking.If you ever want to graduate to titanium, you learn to read your colors.
Reply:I think the point is that torch and filler control needs to be addressed before advance and heat input (color).Syncrowave 300Maxtron 450, S-52E, 30A
Reply:Originally Posted by Donoharmabsolutely right .. but I don't think a litle blue is such a problem on exhausts
Reply:i dont see why you need such small filler..get some 1/16, hold the pedal in there a little longer..
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonWhy would you say that? Grey is to be avoided. It is an indication of extreme oxidizing. Black, which comes after grey is just short of sugaring, which is forbidden in food aplications. You are risking premature corrosion, and possible cracking.If you ever want to graduate to titanium, you learn to read your colors.
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedThe color of the oxidation is determined by the temperature of the metal when the shielding gas dissipates.  Straw is lower temperature (350 C), ranging from purple (450 C) to dark blue (600 C).
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverThose numbers are way off. 600C is way up at the curie temperature of the steel.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonThe colors look very good. But what I would want to see is the inside. I like to see a nice melting.#8 cup, I would recommend 20 to 22 cfh, but again the colors look good.The bead is way under the surface, like you are not adding enough rod. I would run another pass. In fact you could call what you have your root pass. Zank on this forum does high end bicycles. I think the titanium work uses an autongenous root pass, then a homogenous cover pass after it has cooled. Myself, I am heavy handed on the weld, and use larger filler. But you do nice work when it comes to the fit.
Reply:Originally Posted by B_CI'm pissed I heard your getting 26 bucks a week allowance....
Reply:I guess I'm a bit late to this thread... skimming through the replies it seems to be all over the place, and some of the replies seem like poor advise, to me anyway.Anyway, Im too lazy to read the whole thread (lol) so what questions do you have? I'll doo my bes tto try and offer help.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverThose numbers are way off. 600C is way up at the curie temperature of the steel.A quick google search finds this oxide color vs. temp chart.
Reply:Originally Posted by B_CI'm pissed I heard your getting 26 bucks a week allowance....   LMAO
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverI guess I'm a bit late to this thread... skimming through the replies it seems to be all over the place, and some of the replies seem like poor advise, to me anyway.Anyway, Im too lazy to read the whole thread (lol) so what questions do you have? I'll doo my bes tto try and offer help.