Inverter vs transformer TIG

admin

I am looking to buy a 200 to 250 amp TIG welder.  I have received mixed advice on inverter units versus transformer units.  I would appreciate any help on this.Also, brand preferences?  I am told that Miller makes a better inverter unit.  I am also told that the amperages are deceptive  because of the low duty factors.Thanks,Jim
Reply:What kind of budget are you looking at? Where do you plan on using it, shop or mobile? The transformers are less expensive amp for amp but very heavy and bulky. They also draw more power. Inverters are lightweight but almost 2x the cost of a similar transformer machine. If you are thinking about alum you need to get an ac/dc machine regardless if its a transformer or inverter.
Reply:It will be shop bound.  I have a Maxstar STR which is DC only and I want to upgrade it.  I would like to get something I will not outgrow soon.  Budget in the $2000 to $2500 range (maybe higher if need be).Jim
Reply:Inverter units are smaller, offer more arch "options" and use less input power.  Transformer units cost less for the same capacity, but are a lot bigger.Me!
Reply:My comments below, relate to a 300 amp TIG, but they still apply to smaller inverter TIGS. Most of the 'experts', that slam inverters---have never actually used one, in a shop environment, or compared 'just what' an inverter can do, compared to a transformer. I use inverters in my shop---not due to the enormous savings one can get in power and consumable gas, etc.----but to produce the same or better welding, while saving labor time--especially on aluminum. This fact is lost--on many folks.Inverter tigs, offer cost effectiveness and BRUTE performance they have over 650# transformer dinosaurs. The repair costs (if any) are comparable to the dinosaurs.The T-D 300 GTSW (ac/dc tig), I've now had-since new for 12 years, has cost me around $8200 total, including torches, repairs, mod's., etc.In real cost savings on electric and gas--it's returned to me--$32,000.IOW--I got a free welder, and pocketed $24,000---over what the new Lincoln 350 Squareware I had, which I sold.The rub is---I did not buy it--for the above reasons. Those are secondary.I bought the unit, because it can weld aluminum 4-6X faster than a transformer. I wanted labor/time savings, which pays me back multiples of the piddling $24,000 I pocketed--incidentally. So-what?.....well, I price my tig work at $60/hour, in shop. Effectively on aluminum tig....I consistently gross $90-$120/hour. Doing the same or better welding than other shops do with monster transformers--in a fraction of the time. I don't relate this tidbit, to customers. I just have competative pricing, quality work.Any big TIG can be throttled down for really thin work.Sure, you can do multiple pass--that gets expensive in time/power/gas--if this is for real world work. I'm too poor to afford a cheap welder.Blackbird
Reply:I bought a used Miller Syncrowave 350 for about $2000 (shipping and all), and have been pleased with it.  I haven't run into anything it wouldn't weld yet.  I've been welding for 20+ years, and it's not frustrated with its lack of abilities.
Reply:Thread hijack in processDave, What did a 300gtsw cost in 1996?I have just purchased a 300gtsw from a widow, apparently her husband had purchased it before his untimely death. She had moved a few times and was tired of moving it. it was as new as I have ever seen a welder. She did not have any paperwork for it or any of the cables or accessories. I gave 350 for the welder and have @ 600 in torches and other things, already got a ssc foot pedal and the parts for my cooler and requisite "tig cart".wondering what problems you have had with yours ? also cant figure out the sloper (by what the manual i downloaded says)is the sloper only for lift arc with out a foot pedal ?can the foot pedal be used to trigger the sloper process and stop it ?any info is appreciated. especially if you know where to find a 10-4000 optional meter kit for less than 200 bucksinsert thoughtful quote from someone else2000 Thermal Arc 300GTSW 3.5 hours1946 Monarch 20 x 54 Lathe1998 Supermax 10x54 Mill2004 Haco Atlantic 1/2" Capacity Lasernot mine but i get to play with it
Reply:Dave,Do you find that you need 300 amps to do a variety of welding jobs?  Also, which Miller welders would you consider?Jim
Reply:Jim, I just got a new Miller syncrowave 200 for about $1850 without the running gear. The dynasty 200 dx would have run me $3600 if I remember. To jump up to a syncro250 without the torch and pedal $2500, 4k for everything with the water cooler. For the Dynasty 350, $5300+ depending on the options.Most of what I plan to do with Tig is mostly 1/4" or less so from what I understand my 200 should be fine. As I understand I may need more power as I go to thicker Alum. but I couldn't justify the funds right now. I really looked at the Dynasty 200DX but again couldn't justify the 2x the price for what I plan on doing rite now. If I was using it on a daily basis for business then I could see the dynasty being a good deal.
Reply:DSW, how do you like your syncrowave?  Do you feel that the capacity is good enough?  Does it have enough features?  Does it have a high frequency start?  What to you figure that the 250 would have done?  Is the dynasty a transformer unit?Jim
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonI use inverters in my shop---not due to the enormous savings one can get in power and consumable gas, etc.----but to produce the same or better welding, while saving labor time--especially on aluminum. This fact is lost--on many folks.
Reply:I like the Syncro 200 alot. I'm still learning Tig but it seems to have plenty of power for what I've tried so far. Yes it has HF. The 200 is supposed to do 1/4" on tig, the 250 3/8" on Tig. The 200 has pulsed Tig, its an option on the 250 for some reason, std on the 350. If you get the 250 kit it comes with a water cooled torch and its 25' long rather than the 12' air cooled torch on the 200. The 250 is supposed to have a procedure recall so you can switch back and forth in processes. The 250 is also supposed it go down to 3 amp the 200 goes down to 5 amps min. I doubt I will weld stuff that so thin I need to go this low however.The dynasty series is millers ac/dc inverters. I've run the dynasty 350 in class and it is a very nice machine. ( It had better be at that price! ) The Dynasty 200 dx is supposed to have a lot of programable features similar to the Syncro 250. It also goes down to 1 amp for super thin stuff. I really debated on the dynasty 200dx. I think Its a nicer machine than the syncro 200 but in the end it came down to $$. I could afford the syncro now but would have had to wait till late in the year to cover the dynasty and didn't see enough of a difference to justify the money for a part time job machine.I primarily got the Tig for SS and Aluminum. Mostly for materials in the 1/8" range. I wasn't getting the results I wanted on smaller things with my mig. So far I haven't been dissapointed. I've been able to really improve the look of some of the stuff in SS and skip a lot of the grinding I used to have to do. From what I understand I can do heavier alum if I preheat first. I'm going to try and build a ladder rack for the new truck out of alum chanel in the next 2 weeks or so. I hope to get some alum and start running some test beads this weekend so I can get a feel if I will need to preheat or not. So far I haven't set the machine past about 180 and have'nt pushed the petal to the max other than to just see what it would do.
Reply:I've grouped questions from above, with responses.CHENRY ASKS: -I paid around $5600, incl. tax., digital readout amps/volts,  including biggest ground cable to fit the dinse connectors, twecos, bronze ground clamps, lincoln magnum cooler & dinse adaptor parts for the cooler, foot pedal, torch and jacket cover, consumables, etc. Base unit was about $4000, I think.--you got a screaming deal on that GTSW 300!-problems:1--when running--especially fully unbalanced (as in aluminum)-the big ground cable is carrying most of the current.It must stay cool to the touch, not hot. It got so hot, that it began to soften the plastic front of the machine. Then.....I disassembled--all connectors. Rosin core soldered them, assembled these and the male/female dinse panel and twecos with Thomas & Betts, Coppershield. It's a high amp, conductive grease--that eliminates heat oxidation on electrical connectors. Doing this, is critical to running un-balance, high amp., A/C--especially for hours. I coat all the connections internal and external on my machines with this.2-panel now, doesn't necessarily want to shutoff post flow gas, it's qwerky, but I live with that.3-I don't use sloper, but I think you can fire off with foot, lightly, then let it slop up or down.JIM MARSHALL asks:Do you find that you need 300 amps to do a variety of welding jobs? 300 amps depends on what you're doing and how long you're doing it (duty cycle). The welder will last if you're not maxing it out--every time, just like cars, aircraft, etc.-99.9% of time, I use small 230 amp, CK swing head 'Flex Loc' (it's highly ergometric and comfy to use, I'm on my 4th one!)---running a top of 180 amps on A/C or D/C. -on AC, fully unbalanced, 20 Cycles/sec.-frequency, NO PULSING, with gas lens, 2% thoriated, tapered sharp point---one has created an intense, stiff, FOCUSED plasma beam (around 50,000 or 5,000,000 degrees F--depending on who you want to believe).---Anyway (yawn)......this FOCUSED BEAM, creates melt, wetting and fusion, less than a second to several seconds...and away we go. The higher end inverters (or lincoln/miller squarewaves/snychrowaves can do this, to one extent or another). It's the ability to constrict that beam and running fully unbalanced that makes the unit rock n'roll, as compared to an old transformer machine (I owned and used 2 of those prior to the lincoln squarewave, prior to the GTSW)---to a factor of 4-6 times faster. --The beam focusing is a efficient use of power, creating melt, so one can fuse.Most of the power is not cooking that little torch, it's running thru that oversized ground cable.One can create an amazing amount of 'melt', making big, deep puddles--quickly--if just screwing around. With the small torch, I can handle 1/2" efficiently, for 1" if big part, then switch to bigger torch or use helium mix. I may preheat with torch on heavy stuff, for a minute, then begin wetting. Ordinarily no torch preheat. The heat focused really helps deal with contaminated repairs, porosity, etc.; letting you cook it out, fast.T-D factory, had me demo the unit before purchase and showed me this focusing.That, plus the pulsing, etc. sold me. I later showed Miller factory roadshow guys this--on their synchrowave. I got deer-in-the-headlights looks. It took Miller 4 years to realize this was real, not a trick. Now, they advertise it as a feature. You meet all kinds of wacko-wingnut jobs, like myself--at welding trade shows.Also, which Miller welders would you consider?Miller inverters. The lower end (180-200 amp) inverters, will not fully unbalance or make this intense beam focusing like the big ones. I've tried them.BRETT QUERIES:Dave , you comment on the fact that inverters are cheaper on gas and time .See above on beam focusing. The less time one takes, the less gas--and electricity. (My shop electric rate PG&E--no. cal.--runs from $.27/Kwhr to .$50! This is 3 phase, 220V, 200 amp, 20 HP commercial service rate that varies with the season and mood of those important, underpaid, $5,000,000/year executives. After all--THEY GOTTA EAT--TOO!) I used to click off 100 KwHrs, on a heavy aluminum job, now it's 5.For reference go to   http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=17779http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1207275884This was deep, up to 3/4" beveled both sides for full pen., root passes, fills, multiple overlays, done in quick time.Old transformers, with balled tungsten spread the heat out, dance around--taking multiples of time to do the same job as an inverter. Been there, dun that. How do you figure inverters are quicker?-See above! On new sheet/plate, good fitup, one can run feet/min.---not inches. No back-and-forth, lay the rod close to front of puddle letting puddle melt, pull the rod melt into it and move down the joint.Again, many of the naysayers on inverters, have never had it shown to them and tried it themselves, as to their features; or what how the economics of this plays out. I have no vested interest or benefit from TD, etc. I just like equipment that does a better job than the stuff I did have. Attached ImagesBlackbird
Reply:Dave,Thanks for the reply,I thought I got a pretty good deal too.I am having trouble finding the Coppershield Grease , do you have a link?Can you send me a pic of your machines front panel when set for this focused beam you speak of.Thanks, now I got to buy a bigger ground cable, this 1/0 is feeling small, I have found though that a c-clamp style of ground clamp will reduce this heating in the ground cable on the other transformer machines I have used.
Reply:oops, used the wrong login thereI found it it is Kopr-Sheildjust ordered a caninsert thoughtful quote from someone else2000 Thermal Arc 300GTSW 3.5 hours1946 Monarch 20 x 54 Lathe1998 Supermax 10x54 Mill2004 Haco Atlantic 1/2" Capacity Lasernot mine but i get to play with it
Reply:Originally Posted by ctrhenryDave,Thanks for the reply,I thought I got a pretty good deal too.I am having trouble finding the Coppershield Grease , do you have a link?Can you send me a pic of your machines front panel when set for this focused beam you speak of.Thanks, now I got to buy a bigger ground cable, this 1/0 is feeling small, I have found though that a c-clamp style of ground clamp will reduce this heating in the ground cable on the other transformer machines I have used.
Reply:that meter is obviously bad, tell ya what you seem like a nice guy , i will trade you a factory blanking plate for it insert thoughtful quote from someone else2000 Thermal Arc 300GTSW 3.5 hours1946 Monarch 20 x 54 Lathe1998 Supermax 10x54 Mill2004 Haco Atlantic 1/2" Capacity Lasernot mine but i get to play with it
Reply:i feel your troll pain.last year i made the transition from floor to desk at a new company doing 3d design of plate fabrications. ( www.youtube.com/severcorr) is some of the furnace equipment we make. Got  a beautiful 30 x 60 behind the house, finally got enough free time to get it in shape. got a lathe, mill, three welders now, clark forklift and enough structural to build the overhead crane and cylinder dissassembly bench I need.oh 200 for the lathe in prisitne shape  except for two broken handles400 for the mill ( neds a cleaning and the dro scales remountedforklift for freeold old old lincoln 400 amp mig welder ( free + spool of 71M 1/16 wire)the new baby 300GTSWlincoln commander 500 with a blown engine 9 think i have it sold though )Going to be doin cylinder repair and i hope custom displays for equipment manufacturers 9read the company i work for )i pronounce this thread fuly hi jackedinsert thoughtful quote from someone else2000 Thermal Arc 300GTSW 3.5 hours1946 Monarch 20 x 54 Lathe1998 Supermax 10x54 Mill2004 Haco Atlantic 1/2" Capacity Lasernot mine but i get to play with it
Reply:i say look for a decent syncrowave 250, or if you can find one, the might aircrafter 330st.  They will give you 450 amp capacity, enough to run some big carbon's if you ever have the need to air arc.i have used quite a few inverters, they are the cat's meow, but the cost doesn't outweigh the benefits for home use (in my opinion) unless:-you dont have alot of power coming into your house/shop-neccesary for the big transformer machines-you can find a steal of a deal on an invertertry craigslist in your area, look for a deal, they are out there, just be persistent.
Reply:Originally Posted by chenrythat meter is obviously bad, tell ya what you seem like a nice guy , i will trade you a factory blanking plate for it
Reply:Originally Posted by ctrhenryDave,Thanks for the reply,I thought I got a pretty good deal too.I am having trouble finding the Coppershield Grease , do you have a link?Can you send me a pic of your machines front panel when set for this focused beam you speak of.Thanks, now I got to buy a bigger ground cable, this 1/0 is feeling small, I have found though that a c-clamp style of ground clamp will reduce this heating in the ground cable on the other transformer machines I have used.
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrWhat do you apply that to? I have never in all my years of welding seen it used on a welder. Sounds like a dust magnet if nothing worse.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:I posted a similar question on the Miller Web site.  It looks like from the response that the Dynasty 200 DX is the most popular. I noticed that there was a really good deal on a Thermal Arc Arcmaster 200 at around $2200 and the Dynasty at about $2600. Is the dynasty worth the $400 more?Thanks again for all of the input.JimP.S. Is anyone interested in a Maxstar 200 STR?
Reply:Jim my guess on the dynasty is that at that price, it is without torch and foot pedal. Just don't want you to get stuck with having to spend extra you didn't expect to get the machine running. If you are keeping them from your old machine you're all set. I had wondered if that was you posting over there, since the question was the same.
Reply:Right now I have a contractors kit which I had to buy with the Maxstar.  You are right, you have to watch out for what the units have and do not have.JimI let this one go before I commented. I have used inverters, transformers, and engine drives.  I do a lot of mig welding, some tig and stick.I own an arcmaster TA-185, an Invertec V350 pro with advanced panel,  a Linde transformer plasma (30 amp), Hypertherm inverter plasma (40 amp), Lincoln Wirematic 250 transformer mig.  I have used all of them quite a bit.  The inverters weld better.The Invertec v350 uses 1/3 LESS electricity than the wirematic 250 at the same output.  I am sure of that, I have a demand meter at my shop.  That can be a big savings alone if you are welding all day.For aluminum, I have used big ol transformers.  They work great, but the 50% wave balance is a waste.  It just burns up more electricity than I need.  30% wave balance or less works for almost all jobs.  Arcmaster will weld all day on AC or DC at full power on a 30 amp circuit.  A  transformer will pop a 50 amp breaker if I am in the 200 amp zone.Only time will tell if the inverters last, but the Wirematic 250 is sitting home in my garage (not at work in my shop).  I can't pulse spray Mig with the wirematic or any other transformer unit that I know of.  I have run all these inverters for days at a time with zero problems.All the adjustments on the AC for welding aluminum help me out.  I don't use pulse unless welding out of position, then only occasionally.  Frequency and wave balance are a blessing.  I can weld 1/4" aluminum with the arcmaster 185, BUT it needs to be on less than 30 Hz and Less than 30% + wave to get enough heat into the work.  To the one that asked about the up slope/down slope, its made for an arc start switch and no foot pedal.   Start the arc, it ramps up to welding current.  Hit the switch again and it ramps down to crater current then you shut it off.  Or with a 4 step setup, you can ramp up again to welding current........DC pulse I almost never use at all for Tig.I doubt I will ever buy another transformer machine.  (never say never   )I took the V350 and LN9-GMA to a customer for 2 days of work (used his electric).  It weighs 84 lbs and is capable of 425 amps CC or 45 volts CV.  Pulsed spray was nice instead of the ranger 250 I usually use on the road.DavidLast edited by David R; 04-05-2008 at 07:13 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I can't tell you anything regarding differences in tig welding with inverters vs transformers. I can tell you that after purchasing my first inverter 6 months ago that the difference in power consumption was obvious on the first electric bill. More welding at less cost. The one I have is a Miller (and no complaints other than power loss on single phase), but the next will likely be a Lincoln. Their machine is exactly what I am looking for instead of just being close to what I want though the thermal is under consideration as well.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Sounds like almost everyone likes the Dynasty 200 DX machine.  I did have one response in favor of the Thermal Arc which now has a very attractive price since it includes torch, controls, etc.  The Dynasty is $400 more for just the box.Jim
Reply:You also have the small 15A sacrifice with the T/A 185, if that's the model being compared.  I remember when they were a lot cheaper and many considered it worthwhile.  The price is closer now and they aren't talked about quite as much anymore, it seems.  They were always mentioned as being good units that people liked, though.  But there are also several that upgraded to Dynasties when they were able to.
Reply:This is the Indiana Oxygen unit priced at $2230 including freight.THERMAL ARC ARCMASTER 200 AC/DC TIG - STICK WELDER 10-3083A-1BRAND NEW THERMAL ARC ARCMASTER 200 AC/DC TIG AND STICK WELDER W/STICK & TIG KITS AND FOOT CONTROL. 10-3083A-1SUPER SPECIAL--LIMITED QUANTITY UNBELIEVABLE PRICE BUT IT IS CORRECTJim
Reply:See how long I was away.  The T/A is now 200A, and probably was for a while, I just forgot.
Reply:My TA-185 will put out 199-200 amps on DC tig all day long.  I tested it with a hall effect pick up and meter.  I think the 200 and 185 are the same machine with a different price.  Stick welding on BOTH is 160 amps.I love mine.  I have used it for some small sub contract work (all day) and had nothing but good luck.  I did upgrade to a water cooled torch.  DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:David R,Would you take it over the Dynasty 200?Jim
Reply:Good Evening Jim:I to am a big proponent of the Thermal machines. I ran a 185 for about 2 years and just recently moved to a Dynasty. The reason.... 110 volt operation. I sold my Thermal for what I picked up the Dynasty for and had all the toys to run it already ( torch ,cooler, pedal). I had to turn down a few jobs that were on-site type jobs and only had 110 power available so, when the chance arrived I jumped quick. Sooo if multi voltage is not an issue grab a Thermal, I would not think twice to pick up another one.
Reply:Thanks Bob, that is helpful.  Most likely it will remain shop bound.  It is nice that you have used both.  Everyone tells me how great the Dynasty 200 DX is.  I have used a Syncrowave 250 in my Tig class and it does a really nice job.  I still don't think much of the lift arc on my Miller Maxstar 200 STR and the DC only is a real shortcoming.I am looking really closely at the Thermal Arc 200.  There is lots of goodies at a really good price.  Of course Miller has a great reputation.Jim
Reply:Originally Posted by Jim MarshallDavid R,Would you take it over the Dynasty 200?Jim