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Hello ive been doing mechanics and auto body for about 10 years now. Last year i bought a hobart handler 187 and im having a hard time using it on thin 20/22 gauge metal.I have been using .030 with %100 co2 and havnt been doing that bad with it. I live in a very small town that if you dont have everything you need by 4pm friday you cant get anything after that till monday. If you havnt guessed yet i ran out of CO2 at 2 pm saturday and now i have flux wire.Im burning holes in the thin sheet with the flux wire and realy need to get this job done. Is their any tricks to keep from blowing thru the metal my heat is all the way down and my wire speed is as low as i can get it befor it clogs the tip.For the people getting ready to say i should use c25 a 40 CF tank is $209 here and i can have my 40 lb co2 tank checked painted and filled for $56.
Reply:I am by no means a professional, and you are findingout that fluxcore doesnt lend itself to thin gauge very well but you might try using a heatsink or a backer plate to disapate the heat along with very short welds so the heat doesn't build up. Kind of stitch welding.   Hope it all works itself out. Keep us up to spewd on your progressesSent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
Reply:I'm no pro, but isn't c02 what makes the weld hot? Why not c25 for gas?Try using .023 wire? Isn't that what most body shops use anyway?Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Gamble CO2 is a hot weld but not as hot as flux but hotter thin C25. The reason im not using C25 is i cant afford $209 for a good size tank 40cf. The reason im not using .023 wire is i have a 10lb spool of .030 so thats what im going to use untill gone thin ill go to .023.glock36 ill try to find something short welds are not working its eather not getting enuff weld to hold or just blowing thru.
Reply:The tank is $209? Call your place and ask if they will fill a tank that is yours and not theirs and buy a tank onlinehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/55cf-Welding...item20cee6930cSo silly question though. Have you tried using flux without gas? On the right polarity?Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:In some ways you are simply trying to drive tacks to hang pictures with a 20 lb sledge hammer. You can do it, but chances are you are probably going to smash your fingers or have to fix some drywall before you are done.As mentioned  .023 wire and C25 is your best bet running mig. Both CO2 with .030 wire and .030 FC are both hotter processes not really suited for thinner metals like that. Lots of guys like to go with OA for stuff like this as well because it's easier to work the material after it's welded.Now that I've told you how to do it with stuff you don't have, here's a few suggestions with what you do. Biggest issue would be your skill level in reading the puddle. If you don't have a lot of skill ( and I'm guessing from the question and issues you don't) that's going to work against you big time. There's really no magical solution to lack of skill and the ability to read the puddle. It's all about practice.Doing a series of tiny overlapping tacks is one option. How big a "tack" you can get away with will depend on your skill at reading the puddle and determining just when that hole is going to form. Having to clean and remove slag will be a big PITA with this method vs doing the same thing with solid wire/gas.  2nd option is to work with some sort of heat sink/chill bar or backer to support the weld from behind. Not a great option if rear access is very limited. Some what along the same lines would be joint design. Lap welds and but welds with permanent backers usually will allow you to run slightly hotter because the material is thicker. Unfortunately that also leaves you with an unwelded edge on the back that can collect moisture and start the rusting process. It also means you have to think in advance about the extra material before doing fit up as well as possibly having the right tooling like flanging pliers or an air flanger. If that isn't an option, having almost perfect fit up with zero gap would be making the best of the worst situation. LAst option will depend greatly on your welding skill. With mig, the farther away you hold the gun from the work, the colder the weld usually is, given the same settings. With material this thin and running FC, there is going to be a very fine line between acceptable welds and welds that are too hot or too cold. You can manipulate stick out to help fine tune your minimal settings, but with the slag covering the welds, you will really need to be able to read the weld puddle to find that perfect distance. You may find that distance is +/- 1/16" or less, so your ability to maintain that perfect distance while adjusting for variables like changing joint gap or material that may be thinner due to rust or grind prep will be fairly difficult for  the average hobbyist.Now comments on gas cylinders. $200 seams a bit on the high side, depending on the cylinder size. My place sells 60 cf cyl for about $120 and an 80 cf cyl for around $165 with gas, However if you hunt CL you can often find "deals" on used cylinders. That's mostly where I've gotten mine. I also saw a big pile of cylinders at the local land fill recycling place one time while helping family dump some stuff. The down side of used is you are taking a chance whether your LWS will exchange them or not. My guy is really great about taking just about anything in decent usable shape in trade. Other places, not so much. My guy will also swap for different gasses as well as up or down size cylinders, so you aren't just limited to getting exactly what you want. I've swapped O2 cylinders for mig gas, or mig gas for argon, acetylene for mig gas etc. I just pay for the gas, possibly a new hydro on rare occasions and if I need a larger cylinder, I simply pay the difference in cost between the cylinders. This won't help you now, but if you keep your eyes open or possibly use a CL aggregator like Searchtempest, chances are you will find something reasonable. Best bet is to start talking to your supplier before hand, so you know what they will or won't take in trade, or as one member here suggested, arrange to meet the seller at the LWS with the agreement you'll buy if the LWS will exchange the cylinder at the time of purchase, so you know it will swap.Good luck.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:As mentioned .023 wire and c25 gas. Only do small tacks at a time and keep moving around so you do not get too much heat in one spot. If possible a piece of copper held behind your tacks acts as a heat sink and draws the heat from the panel to help minimize warpage. If you cannot afford the right consumables you are not charging enough. Consumables should be calculated into your hourly rate or into your quote. They can also be charged out as shop supplies on your invoice.
Reply:I would check with all the suppliers on the C 25 . DSW said it right. Most 150 tanks are $180 to $ 200 to buy with first fill included in my area. Sometimes we gotta spend the money to make it easier instead of struggling.
Reply:The only place that will sell me a tank is scottgross 40cf tank full $209. I never can find welding tanks on craigslist when i do they want $150-200 for a 40cf people where i live think everything is gold. Im not unskilled per se i was doing fine with the .030 and co2 but as i said at 4pm friday you better have everything you need or your screwed on the weekend.
Reply:To add to the list, C25 and if you have a chance to try EasyGrind wire, you will love the difference.  EasyGrind comes in either .025 or .030 diameter. Burns smooth as butter. It is soft and is not to be used for structural applications, but for bodywork it is very good.Last edited by shovelon; 03-17-2013 at 02:36 PM.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Hey mafiacustomz how close are you to greenriver lake - have a 40cu ft bottle with 75/25 if that would help you outby the way scott-gross is the same lws i do business withThe main thing is not to panic or get excited Bobcat 250, X-Treme 12VS,  MM211Meltabo, Milwaukee,Porter Cable,Dewalt,MakitaVictor O/A, Ingersoll-RandEvolution Rage2, 40 amp PlasmaLincoln 225 AC/DC
Reply:Renagade im about 120 miles away to far for just welding gas thanks for helping.shovelon I have never heard of easy grind wire i will look that up for sure.
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1I would check with all the suppliers on the C 25 . DSW said it right. Most 150 tanks are $180 to $ 200 to buy with first fill included in my area. Sometimes we gotta spend the money to make it easier instead of struggling.
Reply:@shovelon, I never heard of easygrind.  What is it normally used for if it's not structual?  Would it be a better choice for liquid tanks for example? Is it an easier wire to teach beginers with? I let teenagers practice in the shop later if they are serious about learning to weld. I was going to try to teach a group of boy scouts (12-17 YO) and anything to make it easier would probably be good.
Reply:I've had luck using my MM250  .035 and the standard 25%co2 75%argon mix gas. Lots of forward angle with the gun and fast tack tack tack. I don't have a whole lot of MIG experience yet so take what I say with a grain of salt. If I had lots of trouble with blowing threw real thin stuff I would be tempted to try a copper backer.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbart@shovelon, I never heard of easygrind.  What is it normally used for if it's not structual?  Would it be a better choice for liquid tanks for example? Is it an easier wire to teach beginers with? I let teenagers practice in the shop later if they are serious about learning to weld. I was going to try to teach a group of boy scouts (12-17 YO) and anything to make it easier would probably be good.
Reply:Who makes Easy Grind - looked at several site could not locate.Retired - "Her job is to Bitch - mine is to give her a reason"Miller Syncro 200Miller 211 AutoSetMiller 375 ExtremeAn old Ox/Acc
Reply:esab allstar easy grind 2lb $35.99 10lb $109.99 to high for my blood. I bought 11lb .030 p3 wire for $32.Well i got a 20cf little tank from my grandfather it says argon but he says they put c25 in it. I am going to have it filled tomarrow and have my co2 tank sent off tested painted and filled all in all about $80. I now understand the meaning takes money to make money.
Reply:Originally Posted by mafiacustomzesab allstar easy grind 2lb $35.99 10lb $109.99 to high for my blood. I bought 11lb .030 p3 wire for $32.Well i got a 20cf little tank from my grandfather it says argon but he says they put c25 in it. I am going to have it filled tomarrow and have my co2 tank sent off tested painted and filled all in all about $80. I now understand the meaning takes money to make money.
Reply:Their isnt nothing on this wire online its like it just came out. 54.89 is still alot for 11 lbs of .025 wire.
Reply:Originally Posted by mafiacustomzTheir isnt nothing on this wire online its like it just came out. 54.89 is still alot for 11 lbs of .025 wire.
Reply:It seems like it would be all over the net and even in youtube videos and i cant find anything.I have never used c25 and cant wait to use it tomarrow. I dont know if anyone has ever used co2 only while welding on the ground but last week i was welding and a hot weld pop almost went all the way down in my ear. I was freaking out good thing it hit some ear wax and stopped what a sound to hear sizzling ear wax LOL.
Reply:Originally Posted by mafiacustomzIt seems like it would be all over the net and even in youtube videos and i cant find anything.I have never used c25 and cant wait to use it tomarrow. I dont know if anyone has ever used co2 only while welding on the ground but last week i was welding and a hot weld pop almost went all the way down in my ear. I was freaking out good thing it hit some ear wax and stopped what a sound to hear sizzling ear wax LOL.
Reply:I dont know if anyone has ever used co2 only while welding on the ground but last week i was welding and a hot weld pop almost went all the way down in my ear. I was freaking out good thing it hit some ear wax and stopped what a sound to hear sizzling ear wax LOL.Wow like that never happens....Try CAC you will learn about ear plugs real quickHey where do i find out about easy grind and who carries itdoing lots of body work right now running ESAB Mig-6 in my MillerMatic 35  with CO2 which is great for common welding but this easy weld sounds greatBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Well turns out i got screwed again. My grandfathers tank was 100% argon so no 1 i know has c25 so i got the tank of argon should me much cooler thin co2 and c25. I did alittle reading about it befor i got on here and it might make it alot easy to weld this thin 20-22 gauge steel.If anyone close to the barbourville ky area has a 40cf tank of c25 on here they will eather give or sell real cheap full or not let me know.Well i just hooked up the 100% argon and did my first pass and welded the .030 tip shut argon sucks vs my 100% CO2.
Reply:Read the advise you asked for.  Argon will not work, C25 will. Use smaller wire .023-.025 with the correct gas and it will be fine.  Easygrind wire sounds like it will even be a little better. Like was said in a past post, you keep asking how to drive a thumb tack with a sledgehammer. Get the right gas and wire and you will be a happy camper.
Reply:Originally Posted by mafiacustomz... c25 a 40 CF tank is $209 here and i can have my 40 lb co2 tank checked painted and filled for $56.
Reply:Fabn4Fun Unbelievable! is right when the guy told me $209 for 40cf after my jaw hit the ground i asked him did you say two hundred and nine dollars yep. The guy charged me $20 for a 20 cf tank of argon so im guessing c25 here must be like $6-$8 a cubic foot HIGH HIGH HIGH.blackbart im sorry what i have to work with isnt to your liking but i get what i can get. This town sucks hardcore they have nothing its 50 years behind welding is a new scary concept here. Scott-gross is 1 of 2 welding supply for 50 miles realy 50 miles to the next supply store.I can only turn the welder up with 100% argon to try and tack this metal to death so i can grind and body fill to finish. I will be trying to hit up some welding shops for old tanks of c25 they might sell me and i will go to .023-.025 when i can as for now im F***ED for now broke and this is my job at home.
Reply:I wasn't trying to sound harsh, I hate it when posters do that.  But 100%  argon simply will not work with anything but tig.  I suppose you could try to mix the argon and CO2, but I suspect that is much more complicated than it would be worth. So with what you have, at least go to .023 wire, even with CO2. I would drag and stich the weld in an on and off technique.  Many will disagree with that. You can probably buy .023 wire in 1lb spools if that's all  you can afford.
Reply:Well i could use .023 wire with CO2 if they didnt have to send my CO2 tank off for up to 3 weeks to test and fill. I could have used the argon and co2 with a Y on 2 gas hoses to mix 15 psi co2 5 psi argon which should be 75 25. I did use the argon to finish the welding i had to do it sucked. Co2 is like a super clean flux core wire and argon is like using soild wire with no gas and super cold. I had to have my welder on 2 heat just to tack with argon. I need to make a video but i guess i need some c25and trimix first to show all the welding gas.
Reply:You should probably just wait for your co2, order some .023 tips and wire.  I really don't think you can mix it with argon acurately enough without getting too complicated.  How did you end up with a tank of argon, do you have a tig?  If not it's useless to you, perhaps you can trade it?  Iknow I have traded one gas tank for another, but I don't know what they charged me when I did. Don't even try to mig with it, it will never work. Flux core is never going to be cool enough for your needs.
Reply:The argon is my grand fathers its a 20 cf tank and he runs it with is old clark mig welder. Im done with the job now got the argon to work enuff to finish the welding but im done with the argon now. After my .030 runs out i will go to .023-.025 wire and try to get c25 asap. I will never use flux core wire again it sucks in my hobart after using co2.
Reply:man your going to think im crazy and ive been yelled at for this before, but i get full pen, FLAT tacks (little grinding), no warpage.... Set the hobart to tap7, wirespeed 70, .o23 wire, C25....one tack every inch, with 1/4" cut off my contact tip (so my contact tip is RECESSED 1/4" INTO my nozzle IT NEVER welds the contact tip  shut this way, everrrrrrrrrrrr) Put the nozzle dead flat over the butt joint and pull the trigger for less than a second... Oh, and did i say it lays flat tacks with little grinding.  Always test settings on scrap of your gauge sheet first...lay 200 tacks if u have too, until you find the settings u luv , and the perfect most beautifulest sexy tacks in the whole wides worlds          thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3
Reply:Originally Posted by mafiacustomzWell turns out i got screwed again. My grandfathers tank was 100% argon so no 1 i know has c25 so i got the tank of argon should me much cooler thin co2 and c25. I did alittle reading about it befor i got on here and it might make it alot easy to weld this thin 20-22 gauge steel.If anyone close to the barbourville ky area has a 40cf tank of c25 on here they will eather give or sell real cheap full or not let me know.
Reply:WeldingMachine I would have the argon turn c25 if it was my tank but its not so i cant do anything with that. Im thinking if Renagade will give or sell me that 40cf c25 tank i will get it from him when im done with this job.