advice on TIG welding oil pan

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I need to modify an oil pan.  16 ga.  Its torqued up to a motor assembly on an engine stand so it's rail is flat.  I just don't want the damn thing warping, so should I tig normally with er70s2 filler rod, or should I braze the added section with silicon bronze to minimize the heat?  The actual weld will be approximately 6 linear inches, fillet weld.
Reply:If you weld and let cool on the block you should be fine.
Reply:Weld it slowly with er70s, weld an inch or two and walk away until you can put your hand on the pan and keep it there. Also back step your weld. As long as you take your time you should be fine with it bolted to the block, Get some acetone( available at the parts store, Home Depot, hardware store) and wash and wipe the area to be welded down. This will help get rid of oily contaminets that will cause porosity, and leaking.Miller bobcat 225g  - spoolmatic 1Mm250 - 30a spoolMiller spectrum 375Thermal arc 95 Everlast Ex 250As the boiler turns, these are the days of our lives
Reply:Try to use lap joints and weld without filler using pulse, this will keep the heat way down and the travel speed up.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeGyverTry to use lap joints and weld without filler using pulse, this will keep the heat way down and the travel speed up.
Reply:How close to the flange will you be welding? If it will be close to the flange, less than about 1", I would recommend pre and post heating to stress relieve. Other wise there should be no problem. Use the er70s-2.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:If it was me I would use silicone bronze. The only thing i would be worried about is pulling contaminates from the backside of the metal (oil). With think gauge metal it's easy to do that's mainly why i think the bronze is the way to go. Keeps the heat low.Miller Dynasty 200Millermatic 211Instagram?.... find me @ WELD_MEDIC
Reply:Done a lot of oil pan mods back in the late 60's and 70's. Tig most of them but brazed and even stick welded some.Just tig it, tack it about every few inchs do the left side, then the right , top and bottom, it will be fine.www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:Well, there is a small section that I had to remove, about 2" x 2" square, where the stock oil level sensor was.This oil pan has been dry for years and I've thoroughly washed it (submerged) with hot soapy water.  It's a bit dirty inside from being outside, but that's about it.  I first need to patch this up to cover the area that was removed, and then the new section to be added for the extra oil capacity is highlighted in GREEN.
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtyHow close to the flange will you be welding? If it will be close to the flange, less than about 1", I would recommend pre and post heating to stress relieve. Other wise there should be no problem. Use the er70s-2.
Reply:Just put a plate over it and tig it up, it will be fine. Your only running about 50ampsJust make sure to take the gasket out from under the pan or its toast.www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:Alrighty.  Yea the gasket is not there, it's just firmly torqued to the engine block.  Looks like the consensus is to tig it with regular mild steel filler.  I guess I will be going this way.
Reply:Why didn't u just plug the sensor bung? and putting a patch over that hole is a lap joint.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:I had to remove the sensor because that is the spot where the extra 1qt sump needs to be added.   It will extend outward from that spot, perpendicular from the pan wall hence fillet weld.
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75For sheet metal you've got to be $hitting me.
Reply:I'd use brass...........When you heat it up the oil residue is going to cook out. It will cause porosity if you wire feed it.Braze it up in a flat position and let it cook.Lincoln SA200's... at least 15 - 20. They come and go. Growing partial to the "Short Hoods" in my old age. Last count on Short Hoods was 13 in possession.
Reply:Originally Posted by hobohiltonI'd use brass...........When you heat it up the oil residue is going to cook out. It will cause porosity if you wire feed it.Braze it up in a flat position and let it cook.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oscarso you're saying that no amount of cleaning will rid if of oil residue?
Reply:Originally Posted by hobohiltonThat's exactly what I'm saying. Steel absorbs moisture, petroleum products, etc.Have you ever heated a steel plate on a cool, damp day and watched the moisture pour out of it? That's why there is a pre-heat spec in most procedures. You cook out many of the impurities when it comes up to heat.
Reply:Originally Posted by hobohilton------------------That's exactly what I'm saying. Steel absorbs moisture, petroleum products, etc.Have you ever heated a steel plate on a cool, damp day and watched the moisture pour out of it? That's why there is a pre-heat spec in most procedures. You cook out many of the impurities when it comes up to heat.
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtyOkay. Educate us. Why not?
Reply:Originally Posted by BCTimberwolfHobo, please stick to what you know. Steel is not a sponge, water will not pour out of it. The moisture you see is due to condensation. Deals with temperatures and dew point....not magic.
Reply:Originally Posted by BCTimberwolfHobo, please stick to what you know. Steel is not a sponge, water will not pour out of it. The moisture you see is due to condensation. Deals with temperatures and dew point....not magic.
Reply:I too have seen water droplets run down when I've used a huge rosebud to heat large thick sections of steel. That moisture is not in the metal, it's on the surface. It's on everything that isn't hot, hold a lighter to a glass mirror and you'll see the same moisture condense from the atmosphere's humidity. More water is produced on colder, thicker, more heatsinkish materials; the moisure evaporates from sheet metal immediately since it heats up so quickly.None of this matters at all for what's happending here.Last edited by MikeGyver; 09-25-2012 at 10:21 PM.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:[quote=MikeGyver;1618771]I too have seen water droplets run down when I've used a huge rosebud to heat large thick sections of steel. That moisture is not [i]in[i/] the metal, it's on the surface. It's on everything that isn't hot, hold a lighter to a glass mirror and you'll see the same moisture condense from the atmosphere's humidity.None of this matters at all for what's happending here.Last edited by Showdog75; 09-25-2012 at 10:25 PM.Condensation. So you're telling me that the moisture you see on your windshield when the AC hits it on a warm humid night is due to the glass holding water? It's all condensation. Electrodes are stored in sealed containers because some compounds in the flux are hygroscopic (absorb moisture). You can store TIG rods out in the open with no ill effects (though they may rust over time due to moisture in the atmosphere and normal oxidation aka-rust). Cast steel and aluminum may absorb moisture and contaminants, but this is due to the porous nature of it. You are heating the steel in order to bring it to a temperature where the condensation cannot form on the steel. Also, majority of the moisture you see on steel when heating with a torch is from the combustion of the flame. Ever seen water pouring out of a cars exhaust when it's first started? You can bet that's not all the moisture the engine absorbed during the night. It's from combustion of hydrocarbons and condensation.
Reply:I do realize that fillet welding small sections sticking out of the pan's side will be tricky, but this is my only choice.  The inside of the oil pan is filled with very good baffling in the immediate vicinity, so this is not something I want to perturb any more than I have to.So, I think I will go with the consensus to preheat and tig it normally with er70s2, probably a couple of linear inches at a time.I appreciate all the help.  I'll post up pics of my racecar when I'm done!
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75Pre-heating helps reduce the heat necessary to make a weld and reduces subsequent stresses as well as drives out moisture(think hydrogen imbrittlement) mainly for thicker metal. Post heat reduces post weld stresses. Simply not needed for sheet metal.
Reply:this thread is ridiculous....but interesting to see people's views.It's thin gauge material do you really think it's critical to pre-heat here? I really don't think so. Metal is going to move. I'm guessing he's keeping it bolted to the block to keep the main flange from warping but it's going to move around a little regardless, whether you pre-heat or not. Again, I would use silicone bronze but that's just me. I've done quite a few oil pan fixes and that's what worked best for me. You are in a situation where you need to just choose what to do and get the project done, and post pics when you are finished.Miller Dynasty 200Millermatic 211Instagram?.... find me @ WELD_MEDIC
Reply:One of the advantages of using the silicone bronze rather than regular steel wire is that silicone bronze supposedly shrinks less than steel as it cools, so it is less likely to deform the part being welded.  This is especially true for thin sheet metal.Miller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig  Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75Everyone that claims steel doesn't hold water needs to weld some 6"-12" thick steel.When the preheat starts the water pours.
Reply:There is no water in steel.  Water contains oxygen, water and oxygen causes rust.If water was in steel it would rust from the inside out.www.georgesplasmacuttershop.comPlasma Cutter and Welder Sales and Repairs--Ebay storeTec.Mo. Dealer Consumables for the PT and IPT torch's
Reply:Mail it to me and i'll fix it and send it back while you guys are still talking about how to do it, and it'll still be done 2 weeks ahead of schedule. I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeMail it to me and i'll fix it and send it back while you guys are still talking about how to do it, and it'll still be done 2 weeks ahead of schedule.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeMail it to me and i'll fix it and send it back while you guys are still talking about how to do it, and it'll still be done 2 weeks ahead of schedule.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeMail it to me and i'll fix it and send it back while you guys are still talking about how to do it, and it'll still be done 2 weeks ahead of schedule.
Reply:Originally Posted by hobohilton---------------------Didn't take long to find out who knows about moisture in steel..... Did it?
Reply:Finally managed to get this oil pan modification done.  Here are all the pics.  Not the best fabrication work, since it is not my trade, but I managed to get things done because they have to.  I ended up brazing the whole thing while attached to an engine block.  Seems to have worked out pretty good and saw very very very little deformation from heat input.Here is the first rendition that needed some work....So, I modified it to clear the eccentric bolt for the LCA and the hole for the rear nut on the rack and pinion bolt... 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:After yet a little bit more modification (cut a corner off to not have it too close to the longtube headers), and getting a little more length on the narrow part on it in order to grind it down to match the contours of the oil pan down by the drainhole, I pretty much had it ready for final fit-up and final grinding/touch-ups 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Here I had filled it up with acetone to make sure it didn't leak before brazing it onto the oil panLast edited by Oscar; 03-26-2013 at 03:40 PM. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:This thread was most entertaining..For the extra quart or so it did not seem like it was worth the aggravation..But it was fun while it lasted..Next time I wash my truck I will forgo the sponge and get me a chunk of good'ol cold rolled....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterThis thread was most entertaining..For the extra quart or so it did not seem like it was worth the aggravation..But it was fun while it lasted..Next time I wash my truck I will forgo the sponge and get me a chunk of good'ol cold rolled....zap!
Reply:lol.... this thread.Looks good though considering metal is just completely saturated with water and is hard to weld, Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterFor the extra quart or so it did not seem like it was worth the aggravation..
Reply:Originally Posted by dallas_Plus it looks like he's going to have a hell of a time getting to the bolts above that extension to get that pan on or off.
Reply:Wow.........I'm tired after just looking at everything.......  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Race cars use these:
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTRace cars use these:
Reply:I am actually surprised to see a stamped pan on a 4.6, didn't they all come with cast aluminum pans?
Reply:Kickout came out nice.  Glad you survived all the typical internet foolishness.  Accusumps are cute but 9Krpm race cars ussually run dry sumps for a reason.Syncrowave 300Maxtron 450, S-52E, 30A