Outfit shop with Electric or Air tools?

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So what makes more sense to buy air tools or electric tools? I will be doing welding,car work,and various homeowner stuff..I dont want to duplicate tools and everytime I find an airtool It seems my compressor is just not big enough (21 gallon 5hp).I like the portability with electric as I can run them anywhere at anyones shop..Price wise is their much difference?
Reply:First of all in my view 5hp compressor is powerful enough for just about anything to work on car. If you find tool that does not fit it - this is wrong tool.Second. Some tools crossing functions: drill, stapler, chisel, grinder, wrenches...But in my view best economical results produce air tools with reciprocating motion: chisel, wrench, stapler. And speaking about wrenches: small ratchet available only with air...Use grinder and drill - I would go only electrical - flow rate is insane and considering efficiency of of air compressor - simply looks wrong...Third. Air tools are lighter sice the drive located in compressor.Fourth: with compressor you also have better choice for paintng options.As usual, I do not think that you will find "black-and-white" answer: only air or only electrical - the life itself is grades of grey....Just my $0.02... or less, less....
Reply:If you can't afford to upgrade the compressor, go electric.  Some of the air tools are nice in that when fed properly, they have more grunt than the electrics.  Outside of that, there isn't much the electrics can't do.Some things to consider:Price - An electric impact gun worth buying is going to cost more than its compressed air counterpart.Neighbors - If you like working on cars in the evening after work, some neighbors aren't too keen on hearing air tools.Scope of your work - Ever planning on doing any painting, media blasting, etc?  If so, it may be worth springing for the bigger compressor and going all air.
Reply:Sorry to say, but your 21 gallon, 5hp compressor is actually 2hp (if it runs on a 110V 15A socket).  Its just the manufacturer fudging the numbers, and is quite sad actually.I used to have a compressor the same size as yours, and then upgraded to a 60 gallon, 6hp.The real number to look at though, is SCFM (SUSTAINED Cubic Feet per Minute, @90 PSI).Your compressor is probably around 4, mine is currently 11.4.So, any tool that uses more than 4CFM, will run your tank down (it will still work, but only until the pressure drops off).4 SCFM still lets you do plenty.A 4 gallon compressor will still run all sorts of nail guns (and staplers), but would need time to recharge, to keep up with a roofing crew.  Your compressor could run a framing nailer, just about as fast as you could nail.Your compressor will run an impact gun just fine (they use 5-8CFMish).  I used my 21gallon compressor and impact to drive 5"x1/2" lag bolts once, and it was working on its 7th straight, before I had to wait for it to recharge.Same thing goes for a die grinder (8-10CFMish).  Even the $7 ones from HF, are like a dremel on steroids.An electric impact is more expensive, has less power, and weighs three times more than an air one.  It will run continuously, without waiting for the compressor to catch up, but there aren't many things (except screwing in rows of lags), that can use up a tank of air, with an impact gun.Do you visit shops that don't have air?  That may answer the impact gun question.  Its not a tool typically used around the house.My IR air chisel has about the same concrete chipping power as my Bosch rotary hammer, at 1/10th the cost, and about 1/5 the weight.Things to forget about with your compressor:Sander.  At 10-20CFM, my compressor is JUST barely enough to run a small one.Blaster.  WAY our of our leagues.Angle grinder.  I've actually got an air one, but it would wear your unit down in short order, and is just lacking in power.  This is one tool, where the electric is just much more powerful.Drill.  You could actually run a small drill, but if you're only buying one, you're going to want one that can be used all around the house.BTW, food for thought:Air tools get cooler when run, while electric gets hotter.Air tools are pretty much immune to gritty dust that would eat an electric tool (because the inside is pressurized, by clean air from the compressor, pushing dirt out, while an electric has a fan drawing air around the tool, through it to keep it cool), so they last longer in nasty environments.
Reply:thanks for the advice..When on a limited budget black and white has to come into play...spending a small fortune on air tools and electric does not make much sense when it can be one or the other for limited use such as me mostly home handyman,limited welding and autowork...I dont plan on painting but sand blaster would be nice, but again I could never afford a $1000 cabinet i would consider big enough to make me happy. Guess it will be electric becuase a large compressor is out for now and I cant see spending big money on a 60 gallon compressor just to run a grinder,sander, or drill.
Reply:Electric hands down in this scenario- cheaper  on the 'lectric bill tooCompressors use a lotta Air to push  tools and the compressor would be constantly running.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I have a 5 horse 60 gallon that runs a bit over 14scfm@90psi and it won't keep up with a 9 inch air grinder. I have an 11hp engine driven compressor that will run it or a small sand blaster all day and never back up. There is also a 200psi Dewalt Emglo hanging around that will run an air nailer like nobody's business, but comes up short on the impact, paint gun, needle scaler, etc. Sure is handy if you don't need all the air that engine drive puts out on a field job though and a lot cheaper to operate, lol.My experience has been that good electric tools are generally less expensive than good air tools. Air does some things better and electric does others better. I use a combination of both.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Originally Posted by rlitmanThe real number to look at though, is SCFM (SUSTAINED Cubic Feet per Minute, @90 PSI).
Reply:It means the same thing. The qualitative value is the cubic feet per minute delivered, not the working pressure. I once heard "mig" refererred to as mechanical inert gas welding. City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:From a scientific usage of the acronym, you are absolutely correct.I couldn't agree more, and the "sustained" usage pains me to even use.However, the term has been abused by the compressor industry (ok, I'm being a bit mean here; maybe I should just be naming the Chinese home-shop-use compressor industry), in much the same way as they've bungled the usage of horsepower.Just like CH, Sears, et al, would say that a 21 gallon oilless compressor with a motor that draws 14A @ 120VAC is 5 horsepower (even though at a reasonable power factor, that current draw tells me that 2hp or so is its actual capacity), the same compressor would have a "CFM" rating on the side with a ridiculous number, such as [email protected] "CFM" rating is not "sub-standard", or "non-standard".  Its just as standard as the SCFM rating in smaller print below.  Its just that the manufacturer was claiming that the compressor could run a 22CFM tool, even if they never stated for how long.My old CH, actually had a sticker on the side like this, which said, 21 gallons, 22CFM, 4.9 SCFM, 5HP, and an asterisk under the S refered to "sustained" in fine print.So, they were saying, that the pump would continuously run a 4.9 CFM tool, but would intermittently run a tool up to 22CFM.The good news is that I stand corrected.  I haven't been compressor shopping in some time, and having just looked around the web, CH, and Craftsman are rating their current 33 gallon oil-less units at 1.7 and 1.6 HP respectively, with REAL SCFM data.I guess someone made some legal threats to them.  The bad news, is that lots of Chinese import home-shop (read smaller/cheaper) compressors, are still around, with these ludicrous labels on them.At least, the industrial sized stuff has always had real ratings.Oh, but that still doesn't change the fact that SCFM is still the number to look at.
Reply:i like air, but i have a couple big compressors, all the tools fit in the box and dont have cords to plug in and unplug.  I like having one hose on the ground to run most my tools.Also, look at the SCFM usage on your air tools, not the average.  A die grinder will use actual air of about 20cfm, not 8cfm average (which i believe is calculated using 15 sec/min).  Same with impact guns, grinders, etc...I dont think citing wikipedia as definitve proof for anything is a good idea, and could you cut down on the questions marks? i lost count after 20...
Reply:scfm = standard cubic feet per minuteYes, many of the compressor and air-tool makers did lie through their teeth about the HP and CFM ratings.  Yes, they were sued.  They lost and/or promised to be good.For tools with an 'intermittent' usage pattern, the CFM draw is based on 15 seconds of use in a one minute period.  So the actual CFM draw is often 4 times as great as the label claims.For some compressors, they sort of rated the CFM supplied in the opposite way.  They multiplied by 4 the other way.Air compressors and air tools are not all that efficient.  First, you have the inefficiency and losses when you use the electrical (or gas/diesel/whatever engine) energy to compress the air.  Then you have the losses when the air leaks out somewhere.  Then you have the losses when the compressed air runs the air tool.One horsepower is about 4-5 SCFM at 90 psi.  If the nameplate or label or box claims 5 HP for the compressor motor and it delivers 5 SCFM at 90 psi, the compressor is actually giving you about 1 HP at the air tool.For air tools that run on an intermittent basis (impact wrench is a good example), a decent air tool will often be 'better' than most electric versions.  Because the air tool only runs in bursts, the electrical energy from the compressor motor can be stored in the air in the tank.  Then, the air tool can use a big burst of air all in one shot.Example time with real (or pretty real) numbers.  A real 1.5 HP 120V air compressor will make about 5 SCFM at 90 psi after efficiency losses in compressing the air.  Now you take an IR 1/2 inch air impact wrench and tighten or loosen a couple of nuts/bolts/screws/etc.  The air wrench will suck down the air at about 20-25 SCFM when you are using it.  That would be about 3 real horsepower in the air tool, again after inefficiency losses.  Can you imagine a real 3 HP electric motor in a hand tool?  That would be 24+ amps at 120V, and would be pretty heavy as well.  But the couple pound air impact works just fine.Some tools, again because of their intermittent usage pattern, work nicely in the air tool version.  Impact wrench is a good one.Other tools can go either way, because the electric version is a bit more energy efficient although often a little bigger and heavier than the air tool version.Other tools, unless you have a huge source for the compressed air or a 'special' need for an air tool benefit (runs cooler as it is used, becuase of all the air flowing through it versus an electric tool getting hotter as you use it), would usually be 'better' in the electric flavor for most people instead of the air tool version.  Electric drill is in that category IMHO.So, some air tools and some electric tools.Oh, and although an air tool is being fed compressed air, if you don't filter, dry, and possibly lube that air, the air tool won't last as long as it should or work as well as it should.  Some air 'tools' need clean, dry, lubed air (impact wrenches, air die grinders, air nailers, etc, anything with a spinning or reciprocating air motor/piston).  Other air 'tools' need clean, dry, CLEAN air (abrasive blaster, paint sprayer, plasma cutter).  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by goodoleboySo what makes more sense to buy air tools or electric tools? I will be doing welding,car work,and various homeowner stuff.
Reply:Originally Posted by drivethruboy54I dont think citing wikipedia as definitve proof for anything is a good idea, and could you cut down on the questions marks? i lost count after 20...
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRisescfm = standard cubic feet per minuteYes, many of the compressor and air-tool makers did lie through their teeth about the HP and CFM ratings.  Yes, they were sued.  They lost and/or promised to be good.For tools with an 'intermittent' usage pattern, the CFM draw is based on 15 seconds of use in a one minute period.  So the actual CFM draw is often 4 times as great as the label claims.For some compressors, they sort of rated the CFM supplied in the opposite way.  They multiplied by 4 the other way.Air compressors and air tools are not all that efficient.  First, you have the inefficiency and losses when you use the electrical (or gas/diesel/whatever engine) energy to compress the air.  Then you have the losses when the air leaks out somewhere.  Then you have the losses when the compressed air runs the air tool.One horsepower is about 4-5 SCFM at 90 psi.  If the nameplate or label or box claims 5 HP for the compressor motor and it delivers 5 SCFM at 90 psi, the compressor is actually giving you about 1 HP at the air tool.For air tools that run on an intermittent basis (impact wrench is a good example), a decent air tool will often be 'better' than most electric versions.  Because the air tool only runs in bursts, the electrical energy from the compressor motor can be stored in the air in the tank.  Then, the air tool can use a big burst of air all in one shot.Example time with real (or pretty real) numbers.  A real 1.5 HP 120V air compressor will make about 5 SCFM at 90 psi after efficiency losses in compressing the air.  Now you take an IR 1/2 inch air impact wrench and tighten or loosen a couple of nuts/bolts/screws/etc.  The air wrench will suck down the air at about 20-25 SCFM when you are using it.  That would be about 3 real horsepower in the air tool, again after inefficiency losses.  Can you imagine a real 3 HP electric motor in a hand tool?  That would be 24+ amps at 120V, and would be pretty heavy as well.  But the couple pound air impact works just fine.Some tools, again because of their intermittent usage pattern, work nicely in the air tool version.  Impact wrench is a good one.Other tools can go either way, because the electric version is a bit more energy efficient although often a little bigger and heavier than the air tool version.Other tools, unless you have a huge source for the compressed air or a 'special' need for an air tool benefit (runs cooler as it is used, becuase of all the air flowing through it versus an electric tool getting hotter as you use it), would usually be 'better' in the electric flavor for most people instead of the air tool version.  Electric drill is in that category IMHO.So, some air tools and some electric tools.Oh, and although an air tool is being fed compressed air, if you don't filter, dry, and possibly lube that air, the air tool won't last as long as it should or work as well as it should.  Some air 'tools' need clean, dry, lubed air (impact wrenches, air die grinders, air nailers, etc, anything with a spinning or reciprocating air motor/piston).  Other air 'tools' need clean, dry, CLEAN air (abrasive blaster, paint sprayer, plasma cutter).
Reply:I think it would take some level of education just to read MoonRises's posts... But once you read it - the truth is revealed. Thank you for your efforts.If I only add a bit - 1HP/5HP the same compressor - not a lie - misleading but not a lie. They mean peak.. (if somebody interested - I can tell)...And what is STANDARD cfm - if interested...
Reply:my shop has a compressor in the storage room and air outlets allthrough out the shop.. much better then electrichttp://www.aloumac.ca/
Reply:You're missing some pretty handy options of you don't take advantage of both electric and air..  Sure you can get by just fine with one or the other, but both is plain sweet. Budget allowing of course. Most air tools do require a higher mimimum output than typically thought, that's something you learn real quick. Tools that you may want down road is something that doesn't always play into the equation when looking for that right sized compressor.For many of us getting the right sized compressor isn't something we get two tries at. Once you get one, regardless of size, that's pretty much it for a long while. However, rather than rationaize 'in' all electric or rationalize 'out' a lager compressor you are actually doing friends and others a favor by passing along information as to what size or type isn't the right one for any particular duty range.As a general rule (pure opinion) that cute little one on big wheels, that's easy to move around, doesn't take much space, and doesn't take much electricity and fits the budget real nicely, probably isn't big enough.When was the last time you heard some one say "this dern compressor puts out too much air"?
Reply:Originally Posted by mark8310Yes, I agree, much better to believe everything posted by anybody, on an internet message board, is 100% true and valid, and of course the poster has the correct knowledge and experience to be saying what he or she is.   BTW, I KNOW what SCFM means, the link I posted was just the first one that came up on the google search, I'm only gonna waste a certain amount of time on this BS .......
Reply:Not enough has been said about noise.  If you use an air drill or anything similar you need ear plugs and will drive your neighbors (and wife) nuts.  If you have employees you need to shut down tools within 10 feet of you to give instructions or use hand signals.For home use electric small tools are the way to go, for a production shop in an industrial zoned area then air are lighter, cheaper (usually) and seem to last forever with less downtime for repairs.
Reply:Originally Posted by rlitmanThe good news is that I stand corrected.  I haven't been compressor shopping in some time, and having just looked around the web, CH, and Craftsman are rating their current 33 gallon oil-less units at 1.7 and 1.6 HP respectively, with REAL SCFM data.I guess someone made some legal threats to them.
Reply:Yeah, I find myself going for the air tools a lot too.My favorite, is my dynabrade sander.  Its a 6" random orbit sander, which is smaller and runs smoother than my 5" Porter Cable palm grip random orbit, and has more power than my 6" PC RO sander with the huge angle grinder style motor, (Don't bother to try one of these on anything smaller than a 60 gallon compressor) true variable speed (neither of my electric RO's have that), and fantastic dust collection.I actually used it (on a loooong hose), to finish sanding a floor in a room I was re-doing.All that power in such a small tool is great, but its even better, because there is no electrocution hazard, when wet sanding (or using a wet diamond wheel with my grinder).Yes, there are cordless nailguns, but the electric stuff just doesn't cut it (and Paslode is out of my budget).  Same goes for impact guns.Some stuff just works better on air.  Period.
Reply:Air Tools:  Impact wrench- gun and ratchet style, mini right angle die grinder, mini die grinder, mini cutoff tool, grease gun, paint gun, blow gun, air chisel.Electric Tools: 4 1/2 grinder, 4 1/2 grinder with cup brush, 1/2 drillContinuous use tools should be electric.  Specialized, seldom used tools, can be air powered.  It's a convenience vs. money thing in a small shop.
Reply:BTW....... Electric tools that are double insulated can be used in fairly wet environments.  NOW I AIN'T TALKIN' ABOUT STANDIN' IN THE $#%^&*^#@^ SWIMMIN' POOL.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammAir Tools:  Impact wrench- gun and ratchet style, mini right angle die grinder, mini die grinder, mini cutoff tool, grease gun, paint gun, blow gun, air chisel.Electric Tools: 4 1/2 grinder, 4 1/2 grinder with cup brush, 1/2 drillContinuous use tools should be electric.  Specialized, seldom used tools, can be air powered.  It's a convenience vs. money thing in a small shop.Originally Posted by farmersammBTW....... Electric tools that are double insulated can be used in fairly wet environments.  NOW I AIN'T TALKIN' ABOUT STANDIN' IN THE $#%^&*^#@^ SWIMMIN' POOL.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammBTW....... Electric tools that are double insulated can be used in fairly wet environments.  NOW I AIN'T TALKIN' ABOUT STANDIN' IN THE $#%^&*^#@^ SWIMMIN' POOL.
Reply:Originally Posted by tsbrewersPersonally I will disagree with the high use tools.  If you are using something continuously it would be better with the pneumatic.  A good example is a ROS, a good dynabrade will outlast and outwork pretty much any electric 10 to 1.   That is one reason in most factories, repair shops, cabinet shops, etc. use air for almost everything.   In a small shop the biggest kicker is buying the compressor that will handle all the tools.  If the shop will have multiple tools running at once, you almost need a $5k rotary screw compressor or larger.  $ is the biggest hurdle IMHO (as you said too).   I got lucky and had a very good friend that used to sell Quincy compressors.  I worked a couple days on his house, and he bought me a 5hp, 80 gallon quincy to pay me.  I would have done if for free since he is a good friend, and he still saved a couple grand.  Worked out great for both of us.   Brew
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in DenverTanks fer the laff.