Can't keep doing this!!!

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I want to ask a little advice from this forum and see if I am way off. If the question sounds a little crazy, I apologize as I am new at this sort of thing. This past summer, I had a gentleman call me numerous times asking to have some work done. He wanted a full front bumper on a 98 f250 with a hitch mount and some "D" rings. He told me what other welder/fabricators were going to charge and when I told him my rate, which was substantially lower (more on that shortly), he proceeded to ask why and then give me the story about his son (Iraqi war vet) and his sick wife and his job situation. He told me he could supply the "metal" which I declined because I don't work with junk. He ended up not coming to me and I felt like I lost a potential client. Then I had a friend of mine tell me that his neighbor had broken some piece on his lawn tractor and just brought it by. I fixed it better then new and I haven't even received a thank you. I told my friend that I want him to get 25 dollars from his neighbor (the work took me about 30 minutes with grinding and paint). His neighbor told me that he would get me a 6 pack of beer! My friend offered me the money but that's not really the point. The question (after all that belly-aching) is how do you all bill your jobs? Do you send a quote, and if so, is it negotiable? Do you calculate time and materials or just the job itself? I want to be able to pay for my materials and time but I don't want people to go away! With the first guy, my girlfriend was thinking that he wanted me to do it "as a favor". I don't even know that dude. My quote was 800 dollars and I told him it would be pending a vehicle inspection to see if the truck was a rusted mess. He told me at first that the other welders were quoting 1000 to 1200. I realize that he could buy one online for about 400 but custom is custom!I think that people watch those hot rod and motorcycle shows and think that metal fab is really easy and should be cheap. I have two more jobs for some indoor furniture--rustic wood with steel frame. They have seen my work and like it but I don't know how they will respond to the price I am going to quote. Any advice will be greatly appreciated so thanks in advance.Mike
Reply:Dont deliver the work without money upfront. Never work for free or get guilt tripped into working for peanuts. You can do things for cheap but you know what kind of reputation you get? It will be very hard to break that reputation to get decent paying jobs.
Reply:The Custom bumper- the cost is the cost. Only possible factor I would consider about his "situation" is what does he need the Bumper for? Pleasure? Just an add on to his truck or will it make his job easier/better so he can earn money. Charity case I might work on something.Even then, the cost of the build is still a real factor. Othe than that..you didn't lose a potential customer. He wanted something for free.Lawn Tractor- price should have been conveyed to the owner of the Tractor before even touching it. 6 pack is insulting- should be at least a case jeez! Counter with a 12-18pk for payment. You still need to get paid. If you take nothing then you will be perceived as a freebie dude.Quotes are a tricky psychological jedi game. Interesting thing about people is that if your price is too low they don't percieve they actually got a good deal.Too high and they think yer trying to rip them off. (this is a little different in custom stuff though as people do pay for the Craftsman's work/style)I know it's custom furniture but have you seen anything close to what you build and what is the cost?.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:You quote it for what you have to have and feel your worth I always have wiggle room and sometimes I say not to worry about it like I had a guy with a lawn mower just like you I told him not to worry about it 2 days later he brought me a 800 dollar job but for the most part do it for what you want and if they don't like the price they aren't worth having because I done some cheap to keep a customer thinking they will get me work and they always come back and every time they want it  cheaper than you quote it it ends up being a head ache.  Don't sweat losing a customer over what your prices are if they don't like it they can go somewhere else if you do quality work the customer will come and pay what you want and never ask a question and then when the man that never ask a question about price comes in with a 6 inch weld on a trailer he's the one you say to this one's on me Thanks for your business I have a hand full that call me for everything one guy has a heap of land all over the county I went out and welded a gate for him after I finished he said he wanted me to ride to all the location and thru each property and check every gate he had and fix them as needed and just said let me know what I owe ya spent the whole day riding but he knew I did good work and wasn't gonna lie to him with some bs hrs.
Reply:A sob story like this. I wouldn't fall for, a sick wife, a son who is a war vet, so what, a bumper is not a necessity.I think everybody gets people like this,best to not waste much time on them.
Reply:^^^^ This (DockMans post).  My father ,who was self employed and in business for 50+ years, always said you have to know what your work is worth and charge accordingly. He always had plenty of work.Hobart Beta-Mig 250T-D Cutmaster 81Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller T-Bolt 225 ACChicago Electric Mig 151Hobart RC-256 Haas-Kamp Conversion(sold)
Reply:Easiest is to simply quote a fixed price, even if you aren't sure how long it will take. Or ask for time, at your hourly rate, and materials at cost plus xx%.
Reply:Originally Posted by BrianCA sob story like this. I wouldn't fall for, a sick wife, a son who is a war vet, so what, a bumper is not a necessity.I think everybody gets people like this,best to not waste much time on them.
Reply:Originally Posted by DockMan30817.....I always have wiggle room....
Reply:I can count on one hand the people I will do welding "favors" for. Everyone else gets to hear my minimum charge and my hourly charge. Those that do not like my rates don't get work done by me. I work to provide for me and mine. And that means charging a rate that makes a reasonable amount of profit. I don't weld to win moral victories or give myself a case of the warm and fuzzy.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:Thanks for all of the advice. I think what really helped is knowing that this happens to other fab guys. I really thought it was just me. I can't just give stuff away anymore.  I made a custom smoker for a guy last summer and it was crazy nice. The guy paid me what I asked and was so happy that he sent a couple of more friends my way. So it's not all bad.
Reply:+1 on Tbones post. Always make sure they are aware of the pricing up front.Mike
Reply:I will add that for certain customers, I make certain provisions and accommodations that I may not for someone else.Example: I have one customer who is extremely timely and diligent about paying me. They have provided me with a lot of steady work, and never screw me around on getting a check. They have even cut them for me special in a few circumstances. I do the work, I give them an invoice, they cut checks on Friday. Even tho my hourly rate will be increasing at some point in time soon, it's quite unlikely they will ever see an increase in what they pay me, unless at some point, I absolutely have to. They get a very good value for their money. I don't really keep a strict eye on the clock for them. I pro rate a lot of stuff and just round it off at what I feel is fair and reasonable. They in turn keep me in a lot of work and have been absolutely stellar to me. I throw them freebies from time to time too. One job I undercharge will usually be made back on a sale, or something down the road. It's give and take and I'm happy to do it for them.I call it professional courtesy. I also have more of a relationship with them as far as maintenance and repair goes. I handle it all and they keep me pretty busy.At the same time, if I encounter a customer who ends up being difficult to deal with, I'll either raise my rates for them specifically, or cut them loose the way I did with the tech center last year. As far as I'm concerned, if a customer is going to make me wait weeks for a check, screw me around or require a great deal of paperwork, quotes, approvals, several invoices, etc they're either going to pay me for it, or I'm not going to waste my time with them. I work too hard and don't have enough money coming in to play games with places like that.Again, respect is the key. I won't work for someone who treats me bad, I don't care what they are willing to pay. I don't go for indecisive types either, who change their mind midway thru a job, then blame you for it taking to long and costing too much because you had to tear it all back apart and rework half of it due to the fact they changed their minds. I absolutely will not tolerate someone calling my ethics or integrity into question either. I charge much less and do a more through job than many companies who do similar work. I also give my customers a great deal of value added benefits, mainly being my experience and ability to provide "outside the box" solutions to costly problems that most repair places either refuse to touch, or immediately turn to manufacturer part numbers and retail prices as the only available solution.No thanks. I don't need the headaches. Been there, done that.Others may do it differently, but that's what works for me.IMHO of courseExpert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:Sob stories take time to listen to, charge them more for all that lost time and patience.Businesses run on money not beer.re people as customers not businessIt's impossible to get paid third hand, cash in hand from the person that dropped off or picked up the work before they get it back.
Reply:I do stuff for free all the time but I don't do stuff for cheap any time. What I mean is, if it's a 10 minute fix then it's free for most folks. I call those advertising costs and they usually pay off in the future. On the other hand, I don't do stuff for cheap unless there are extenuating circumstances, friend, long time customer, hottie, stuff like that. People will treat you the way you let them treat you.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hambone2004Thanks for all of the advice. I think what really helped is knowing that this happens to other fab guys. I really thought it was just me. I can't just give stuff away anymore.  I made a custom smoker for a guy last summer and it was crazy nice. The guy paid me what I asked and was so happy that he sent a couple of more friends my way. So it's not all bad.
Reply:I think Sherlock Holmes said it best..."My fees are based upon a fixed scale, unless I choose to remit them altogether.."Peter Cushing as Sherlock Holmes in Hound of the Baskervilles.. Attached ImagesExpert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:I always quote a fixed price in advance. Have never lost money doing it. I have worked fairly cheap once or twice though. Payment on delivery for small things, take a 50% deposit on larger things. Use quickbooks to give them a written estimate so there is no question later. The deposit should be enough to cover you materials and labor if they skip out. No credit, and I won't negotiate on price. You just need to come up with your lines for when they break out the poor me stories ("unfortunately I have very little markup, and so there is no wiggle room...).I would rather not do it for nothing than do it for very little. Sob stories are usually just stories. I have done a few things pro bono for charities for free, I just don't make it a habit. I don't charge my friends, though I have found out that truer friends won't let you work for free and always have cash or gifts to offer. I have offered freely to my close friends for years, and it has paid me back manifold.Edit: someone else mentioned hotties. Be very careful about doing business with really hot ones, as it may cause you to give away the store. They know this and use it to their advantage.Last edited by walker; 01-21-2015 at 09:21 PM.
Reply:As a counterpoint to Tbone's post, I will add that I have two hourly rates: one for all "retail" customers, and a discounted (~15%) rate for a few "commercial" customers who resell my work to their own clients.
Reply:money talks..bull$hit walks..dont be embarrassed for making good money...dont look at it that you lost a client,,but you dont have to deal with a cheap a$$hole...Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Quote high on custom work and then you can come down a little if it goes faster. Great the guy's son served in Iraq. He would have got extra pay for being over there so payment shouldn't be a problem. I'm not trying to be harsh. Consider the price markup for anything built for the military. Way more than the same thing for the private sector.
Reply:world is full of sob stories. 40 years in business and i heard a few. most of the sob stories i kept finding out lived a lot better that i did and the ones i still know are living better than i do now. adjust your rares accordingly
Reply:I am a plumbing contractor.  My brother and I took over my dad's company after his passing.   The old man had a saying" this isn't a hobby and I don't need the practice, this is how I keep the lights on and feed my family".   It doesn't hurt to give a hand up versus a handout,  but I have found those that really need a hand won't ask for it.    It will take time to get where you can read the situation. NSent from my iPhone using TapatalkMiller BobcatHarris cutting outfitMiller spectrum 625 plasmaVariety of shopmade tools
Reply:Hambone - you did not lose a Customer, he was never a Customer. A Customer is someone you do business with, when it's good for both sides.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:You have to know what your work is worth and charge accordingly. Always demand at leats 50% money down. In CASH. Especially for small jobs like that. Then demand payment in full upon delivery. I have a construction supply store and thats what works for me. Doing so otherwise causes a lot more headache. I'm all for helping a guy out but we're all working men here, we have to put food on table.Yep! What it costs is at least T&M! Add margin to that, then get a deposit! I quoted a set of brackets for a Loader to a "friend" who is ADD. I got the T&M out of him but he still owes 2 years later the rest of the money. Another guy asked about torching some bolts off from a snowplow, I told him right out, I don't work for free and WILL charge as Gasses cost me money! He said no problem but hasn't showed up for 3 months but then again hasn't snowed enough to really need this project done either!
Reply:I get tire kickers all the time. I tell them up front my rate and my minimum, as well as deposit (does not change as stated before). Tire kickers will always be tire kickers. Do they have a 5k tig machine or a lathe or a mill or other investment in tools or better yet the skill. Nope. Bye bye. Also no money no delivery of said goods up front. T.J.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:It's rare that work leaves my shop without being paid for first, it has to be a really good steady customer to have that privilege. I have lost a few over the years and have chased a few away over the years. If they give me grief over wanting to pay 'on their terms' and not mine,you can bet I'll be on the phone to you everyday looking for my money, and a few have to be reminded it is MY money.
Reply:Someone walking away after getting a resonable quote is not work lost, it's time saved. If a job doesn't pay the cost of keeping the shop running, it's really just something to do while draining the bank accounts.
Reply:1) Deposit, 2) Deposit, 3) Deposit...always.... or else you're nothing more than a hobbie. Home based businesses are the prime targets of alligator armedcustomers looking to P on you and send all their buddies because they know a guy who can do it cheap.  Ask me how I know!
Reply:That is all really good advice. I used it today. I gave a quote for time and materials for some yard furniture and got a call about 20 mins ago. I sent the agreement by pdf to sign with a 50% deposit and he came through about 2 mins ago. The 50 % will more than cover my materials so I feel better. Now I just need to give him some crazy outstanding work. Thanks for the advice guys.
Reply:FOR PROFIT... Need to get window decals made up that say this. That quote from 3 months ago.. Add to it... Have to look back a ways to find who posted it, but don't cut any of your advertised pricing by 15%. Maybe a "timely" payment 2.5% deduction. (We used to get these when we were building houses from our suppliers)  Government agencies for example are supposed to take any deduction alloted, even if only 1/2%. Gold Rush coming on, maybe I will forget my rant during it
Reply:it happens to me too...its easier to tell them to go pound dicks when you do it for extra money on the side. a few years ago when i needed the money, i worked for anything....now things have changed, i have a good day job, and my side shop is just that....side money.AHP alphatig 200xclarke 130en MIG (first welder i ever bought)NT Plasma 375craftsman 240/180 ac/dc ARCcustom 60x30x30 powder coating ovenhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/Rossi...18853401526643
Reply:Post a sign with an hourly rates for repair & custom work - with minimums. Custom work often requires design and engineering and possibly more wasted material, you should be compensated for it. Discount your rates if you want, but only after the deal has been agreed to. Donations should be documented as such for taxes.Dockman, buy some punctuation! I got an ice cream headache reading your post.