Johnson Foundry furnace rescued

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"What did you do today dear?" my bride asked.  "Well I went over to see that old guy with all that surplus and picked up an old thing I liked"  I said. "That's nice dear, glad you had fun." she said as she left the family room to cook a little dinner for us. It's a Johnson foundry holds about 20# Al and needs 240,000 BTU /hr to run... I figure that to be a little less than 3 gallons of Propane ( I could have Natural gas here but SW Gas is GREEDY), so I'll probably go with Propane.  It is set up for natural gas now so there is a lot to do to convert it over and then clean it all out etc.  Age about 40 years, weight about 500#,  condition pretty darned good the refractory inside is excellent and the fan bearings are aok. It sat in an old warehouse here for 20+ years I guess. No rust at all, just a little surface corrosion and some sand to clean up. I keep finding stuff I want to drag home for the shop, somebody help me~  take my truck keys and keep 'em for me Attached ImagesLast edited by PapaLion; 04-05-2010 at 07:19 PM.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Geeze, you find all the cool stuff!  I've been looking for a scrap yard here, but so far, I'm unsuccessful.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Just the guys I was wantin' ta hear from  Bring a wire brush and we'll go at cleaning it up.  Pouring Al and Brass is not something to do alone.. much safer and a lot more fun in a group of 3-5.   I'd enjoy it if you and Joker were able to participate.  Usually I've poured in the late day-evening and we poured stuff for everyone each time.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Name the time/place, I'll try to be there.  Weekends will work better after about the 9th.  So far, I'm free this week.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Let's see if Joker wants to come also... Saturday Am is aok with me.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:I'll bring a grinder with a wire brush attached.And a set of gloves.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLion Pouring Al and Brass is not something to do alone..
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLionI keep finding stuff I want to drag home for the shop, somebody help me~  take my truck keys and keep 'em for me
Reply:Tensaiteki; sure, it can be done, especially if you are not pouring a lot of weight and UR well set up..  I'm not that strong, that fast, or that coordinated anymore.  I was pouring at the local Jr College and just got in the habit of several guys each with a task rotating thru it. Duane great minds run the same track, I took some recently... got $140/ton here.  I figure it is spring cleaning sorta  So... now ya' gotta find sumthin quick to go where that new hole is right?Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Dang, I need some 4x3x1/4" steel tubing, about 18 feet.  If I would have known you was hauling stuff off, I would have come bought it from you & saved yer back.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:sheesh, we boxed most of my scrap, except the bent mangled cracked up pipe from my bender experiments ... it was mostly little chunks left  from other chunks used.  IR  cheap I guess...  What ya' gonna' make? a corral for Buffalo? 4x3 x 18  FEET, sheesh.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:20-30 Ton Shop press.  Need 60" x 2 for uprights, then a 36" spacer, figured I could use the remainder for other projects.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:My rough calculations would be  the cost of Propane is only 1 .5x that of natural gas here in Yuma.  Lease or buy the tank versus have another monthly bill forever?  Propane still seems the better choice to fuel it so far. Facts I found on the net: Natural gas and propane can be directly compared based on their individual BTU ratings. Seeing that natural gas contains approximately 1,030 BTU per cubic foot and propane contains 2,490 BTU per cubic foot, we can easily derive each fuel's cost per BTU. Propane contains over twice the usable energy content per cubic foot (2.44 times more).Environmental Impact of Propane Vs. Natural GasNatural gas, when discharged into the environment is a greenhouse gas whereas propane is not classified as such. Propane is not toxic or damaging and will not harm the environment if it is released into the atmosphere, which is why it is not labeled as a greenhouse gas. Therefore, while propane will not contribute to pollution in its unused state if released, natural gas will. Propane is a green fuel before combustion and remains environmentally friendly even after it is used,opinions? there are a lot of guys here who work around this industry, I'd wonder what your opinion is?Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Opinions?  Since you are not going to just vent off a whole bunch of fuel gas of either kind, it really doesn't matter.  And they are both hydrocarbons, so again it doesn't matter.  And a bunch of cows or wild cattle/horses/donkeys will probably release more 'green house gases' via -their- 'natural gas' than you will, so again it doesn't matter.If you don't have natural gas already or have it readily available (pipes already in place in the street and possibly to the house), then propane is -usually- easier.  But unless your NG vs LP prices are way skewed from what they are around here, natural gas is waaaay cheaper per Btu than propane.  YMMV.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Hi MoonRise, yea, my Boer Goats are real methane makers, wish I could bottle that volume. And yes we are not big time around here  so it is a small impact either way.   The SW Gas people have HUGE monthly fees attached to their delivery system here.  It skews the cost a lot I think? This is something I need to verify rather than guess at.  The gas line goes right by the ranchita, I've always smiled and said no thanksLincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLionLease or buy the tank versus have another monthly bill forever?
Reply:I believe you said that furnace will hold 20# of Aluminum; are you sure?  Judging by the pictures, I'd guess  it'll take a lot larger crucible than that, maybe twice that size. The inner diameter looks to be at least 14", maybe 16" or more.
Reply:Hi Brink,   I can see the meter guy showing up, reading a ~0~ and scratching his head??? sheesh. Yes Oldiron2 I'm probably conservative there.  Johnson answers emails, sent me a owners manual more or less,  so pretty soon I'll get a tape on it and compare with other models to see what it'll do.   Things loosened up nicely yesteday, I removed the blower fan assy, rheostat etc. All looked pretty good for 40 years old.  Then one of my Boer Goat does decided to have triplets about 1 pm  That shot the afternoon, all work ceased and we just sat around watching the babies come.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Well I managed a little progress today. Got the padsite ready and stripped down the furnace of the parts, and worked a little on the parts.  The furnace internal size is 14" across and near 16" deep.  A crucible would only use about 1/2  to 3/4 of that because you have to be able to lift it out. Attached ImagesLincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:We will have to dig a trench to bury a propane line from the south side of the building to the pad.  Propane tank out of sight, out of mind.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Well I went to SouthWest Gas today to get info on Natural Gas installation and use at my ranchita. One Therm =  100,000 BTU  Numbers are based on using 100 therms per year. That is about 40 hours of use and would be maybe... 25-30 evenings of pouring... a lot  for me. SWGas  install/setup costsInstall main meter 80 feet onto my property near the shop (I dig the 36' x 80 foot deep trench)  $1170Install about 200 feet of owner use lines 18" deep to the shop and a BBQ area  (I do the work)  at least $500 inc County permitTotal install about $`1670 + trench workMonthly Service charge $11.50   FOREVERDelivery fee/ volume x expected use 100 therms per year $4.75Cst of the gas itself  $7.00Total not inc taxes etc.  about $23.25/mo or $279 /year Prpoane install/setup costs:50 gallon used tank with new valves and meter.   $300  Pad on site  $50 for concrete DIY35 feet of underground  3/4" or 1" pipe to the foundry  $150 DIY Totla install $500 Costs to operate50 gallons of propane delivered at $4.18/ gallon =  $209Math:  1 gallon of propane has 91330 BTU x 1 Therm/100,000 BTU = .913 Therms 50 gallons x .913 therms /gallon =   45.6 Therms  /per tank  $209 tank / 45.6 Therms = .$4.58 /therm x 100 therms = $458 for 100 therms. You can save about $1/qallon by transporting your tank to the fill station... adjusted values50 gallons x $2.89/gallon = $144.50 /tank$144.50 tank /45.6 therms = $3.17 /therm x 100 therms = $317.   Avg the two and get $387/year$279 per year NG and ~ about $387 for Propane   So...I'd pay an addition $108 /year or a HUGE install fee of $1650 vs $500  and own it all. or another way >>>  Would take me 10.6 years just to recover the SWGas install fee offset by lower NG costs. And , I'd get that nice monthly bill forever ... If I chose to back off the propane someday all I do is shut off and/or sell  the tank.  AND, no darned county permit for a 50 gallon tank.What would U do?   My answer>>> what color do I want to paint the Propane tankps: I tested the little 5000 rpm blower motor today >>aok  I am going to  service it  anyways, but it works fine.Last edited by PapaLion; 04-08-2010 at 08:08 PM.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Have you considered building an oil-burner?Do you have a source of used motor oil?Propane only contains about 91,000 BTU per gallon while waste oil can easily contain over 130,000 BTU per gallon. Plus, you can probably get a bunch of used motor oil really cheap or even free and it's a lot easier to store than a compressed/liquefied  gas.With a Moya-style burner (http://backyardmetalcasting.com/foru...pic.php?t=2442) you would only need propane or natural gas for a short preheat then switch over to run on waste oil. Since you only need the fuel-gas for preheating, you could probably make a 20lb propane tank last quite a long time.An oil burner would likely work exceptionally well in a large-bore furnace like yours (large by hobby/amateur standards). Not to mention, oil-burners are easily capable of making it up to temperatures suitable for cast-iron, one person (that I know of) even got his hot enough to cast steel and stainless before his refractory melted.On a different note, you might want to consider covering that concrete slab with a layer of sand. In the event of a crucible failure, especially with a crucible sized for that furnace, you don't want molten metal (even aluminum)  to puddle on concrete. Random flying globs of molten aluminum add an entirely unnecessary level of 'excitement' to a casting session, believe me.Visit Tensaiteki.com
Reply:A waste oil burner requires an electric pre-heater to make it atomize with the correct viscosity.That gas train is likely set-up for Nat Gas, so back that regulator out to get yer gun pressure right. It may also have a gas nozzle ( metering device ), that would have to be drilled out for Propane.By Eye- flame adjustments usually dont work, but I doubt you have a combustion analyzer, so blue flame usually means little to no CO.Nothing more satisfying then creating fire, let me tell you...Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:Originally Posted by MadMax31A waste oil burner requires an electric pre-heater to make it atomize with the correct viscosity.
Reply:I know of a few people with home made furnaces-- I think one was in Oakland, Ca. and built working model V-8 engines, using remelted old steam (house heating) radiators--and most have used kerosene or fuel oil using burners like these in the links below. I built a prototype using the first, and can melt cast iron easily in it. BTW, in the East coast, used burners used to be common and cheap, and replacement nozzles are both standard sized and inexpensive. Once started on kerosene, these can be switched to a heavier fuel such as (filtered) engine oil, somewhat diluted with kerosene or gasoline, too.http://www.johnstonesupply.com/corp/...t_Code=L86-099http://www.johnstonesupply.com/corp/...t_Code=L86-353http://www.johnstonesupply.com/corp/...t_Code=L86-354Notice that the third burns up to 5.5 gallons/hour. The last two both have ratings up to 420K BTU/hour.Last edited by Oldiron2; 04-09-2010 at 12:35 AM.This  oil fired system is an excellent idea worth pursuing for sure.   I barely recall reading a little about oil burners, now i will... yes, I have several vehicles and can get old oil easily also from  my mechanic etc... so before I spend the $ I will research it.   I'd like to cast mostly Brass/Bronze.  A low temp iron alloy for non structural parts  might be interesting if it could work. As for the concrete pad... hmmm hadn't thought of crucible burst on it but yes that is a safety factor for sure.   Firebrick could  laid up on top ?  Again good time to think it out first. Sounds like I'm hearing first hand experience there  thanks for the guidance,  knowing how to pour does not give me all the answers on set up huh?Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:The point about the concrete danger is true; I was thinking you needed a small pad for the propane tank, which shows how well I read when I'm in a hurry! Bricks would cause the same problem because they hold a fair amount of water, particularly when outside on the ground. A deep layer of sand over them will solve that, though, and they or concrete below would keep the area from being muddy; they would also let water percolate through (assuming no mortar is used), while concrete won't.  (Or move to California, where "it never rains")??What is your soil type? Any chance it doesn't ever get 'muddy'?Maybe use just 'concrete board' underneath, with sand over it?One more thing; once you're hooked, you'll need to build a cupola, particularly for the large cast iron things you need to cast. Or when you need to make a 300#  bronze statue, slightly beyond the capability of the furnace. I can recommend a couple good books when you want to look into that!
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2I can recommend a couple good books when you want to look into that!
Reply:Books R always good... We'd enjoy hearing from ya on that.  I live in Yuma, Very sandy and 7" a year rain...I did figure to cover the thing when not in use... a big garbage can or plastic cover  maybe... I'm gonna ponder it some more but I could just heep up the dry sand onto the pad when the Foundry is in use.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Here's a good basic foundry book written specifically for hobbyists: http://prometheus.vndv.com/tutorial.htmlYou can read the full text on that page, download the full thing as a .pdf for free, or you can buy a printed copy. Since its released under a Creative Commons licence there are no legal issues in downloading, copying or sharing it.Visit Tensaiteki.com
Reply:Originally Posted by TensaitekiThe burner I posted the link to doesn't.Burners of the type I am talking about require neither pre-heated oil nor atomization. These types of burners preheat the furnace using a fuel gas, then drip oil into the air blast just before it enters the furnace. The air blast breaks up the drops that then vaporize and burn when they enter the furnace. When running correctly, combustion is total and there is no smoke.If necessary, the oil can be thinned with a little gasoline, diesel, or kerosene. However, living in Arizona, I doubt PapaLion would have any trouble with motor oil getting too cold and viscous to use with this type of burner
Reply:The model 920 Johnson crucible furnace currently sold which is very similar to mine,  has a capacity of  30# Al which would be about 3x as much Bronze or Brass for the same volume.  Sheesh you could cast 80-90 pounds of Bronze I am curious about what the outside shell temp might be during firing, because when I paint  it I could use the 500 degree Rustoleum or the 2000 degree? Any ideas on that. The Waste Oil burner info I've gleaned  leans toward using a REIL model burner which (if I get this?) does not require preheating the Furnace.  I'm still wandering through a mountain of anecdotal info (on 3 burner types) all on one category on a bulletin board.  It has 100s of similar threads/posts mostly beginner info... same ?s I gotLincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:The Moya is pretty cool and I'm learning a bit more about the Brute model... I have tried for three days to register/log in on the Backyard site  We are SSsssSSsssOOOoooo lucky to be over here, their registration system is a joke. Rather than protect the site they simply make it darned near impossible to contact anyone or get registerd, I'm still  a spectator.  enjoy, Bhoping to paint the main body soon.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLionI am curious about what the outside shell temp might be during firing, because when I paint  it I could use the 500 degree Rustoleum or the 2000 degree? Any ideas on that.
Reply:Thanks Tensaiteki, I used the same username as here ~PapaLion~ I emailed via the registration system to Anon, then to the other #2 choice 2 days later, then finally to the admin/owner... UR supposed to get an email reply saying you are registered... hmmm well UR supposta?  I'm not in a hurry and if you might mention it to the admin that would be great. I asked my mech if he had any used oil>>> "how many 5 gallon buckets do you want this week?"So I think this is the way for me, just a matter of learning more about the burner types. I figure to use the 2000 degree Aluminum Rustoleum, that is about what was on it in the first place.   You have been a big help guiding me in the right direction and I appreciate it. Our pile of brass is growing.  I will fabricate most tools and the flasks myself, save many $ and work fine.  Buy good crucibles and make a few ingot trays too. Hey, Zapster U got any xrtra nice brass cymbals U could donate to the causeLincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Your BYMC membership should be activated now.Visit Tensaiteki.com
Reply:yes Ben emailed me and all is well... thanks much you've been a big help... I only have maybe 20- hours of reading ahead. sheesh... What part of the glorious state of Texas are U in?  I'm from Marfa way over in Big Bend area... but spent many years here in SW Az.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:I have been studying on the Waste Oil Burners and this seems a good way to go.  They are simple some require a preburner to warm up the Furncae (Propane) for 5 minutes or so... all good. But here is an interesting twist. a Johnson Furnace like I have has a ~1" pipe main entry~ which enters below the furnace at the bottom, (Via an ~outside "T"~ the blower goes into this pipe also) and via an ~underneath "T" ~ under the furnace it routes the gas eventually to two different furnace entrances. One is low and the other is midway up the wall. The objective is to swirl the flame inside and not destroy the crucible by cooking it. Good idea, but the fuel (Natural gas or Propane) travels about 3-4 FEET in the pipes before it enters the furnace openings. I believe it is ignited by a spark system as it enters the chamber. Meanwhile, I am figuring to go with a Waste oil burner. As I understand Waste oil burners they atomize the oil at the entrance to the Furnace and IF there is adequate heat from a preburner then it ignites. Choice 1: Traveling 3-4 feet as "atomized" oil clear to the furnace entrances which doesn't seem feasible, Or Choice 2: it ignites early at the point before the ~underneath T~ then you have hot oil burning in the pipes for 4 feet. Also not good. So, I believe a solution might be to to place a fitting in the 1" pipe line just before each entrance and run a short pipe in for the fuel. What you would end up with is a dual Waste oil Burner setup, one burner for each entrance.Thoughts? Attached ImagesLincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools