Welding 3/8 with a 110 mig

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OK, I have been in a few discussions of 110 Migs.  I like them.  I have one that is 20 years old and works like new.  It has its limitations.  Here are some pics of an experment I did today.  Plate 3/8 hot rolled (A36)  .023 wire, Settings on MAX, AG8 gas. (92% argon 8% Co2) Attached ImagesReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:This time I plugged the machine into a 30 amp circut.Pics are not too clear, but note the penatration.David Attached ImagesReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Hmmmmm I suppose if you beveled the edges it would have no effect over what you did already...Try the same experiment after pre heating it red hot..Then I'll bet its much better.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I used a 110V machine once on some 1/4" plate.  After 20 mins of welding my hand was too sore to continue ........from squeezing the trigger so hard. vain attempts to get more juice
Reply:Hey David R,Just to add a few notes....you would be quite surprised at the welds and thicknesses that can be done with a 110VAC welder, with at least 90A output. There are very tried & true methods, as zapster indicated, that can produce quality, full pen welds with these units. Beveling will certainly allow a better fillet, and the addition of heat, even if it's to the "blue" stage of heating, will allow for a quality and sound MIG weld. Time and practice, experimentation, and forethought/research will generally produce a satisfactory outcome. Gotta do some homework once in a while. I have done many 1/4" & 3/8" welds with my Miller Sidekick 90A with very good results. In addition, you should try some .030 wire that has a higher density and conductivity than .023. Just some added thoughts to consider.....DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:I think he is showing the difference between a 20A circuit and a 30A circuit. We were discussing it last night in the CHAT room if there might be any benefits. Thanks for the demo David!John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZoneI think he is showing the difference between a 20A circuit and a 30A circuit. We were discussing it last night in the CHAT room if there might be any benefits. Thanks for the demo David!
Reply:Weld looks VERY cold thou...I think you can do better than that...NO need to use the hammer and wrench to notice that THAT weld would fail....I agree with you thou David, as far as I know my 175 PROMIG top I would attemp is 3/16, probably 1/4 (never done it before) running at max settings and Straight CO2 gas...more than 1/4 with a 220 Volt MIG unit is putting your welder reputation in dangerMy Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3   4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:If I did it with 200 amps I dont' think I could brake it.  That is my point.  You can't see in the pic verry well, but there is no penatration.  A T joint is already prepped and why pre heat?  Just use a bigger machine.  Its mild steel.  "If the only tool a man has is a hammer, then he will see all his problems as nails".  If all you have is a 110 mig, then bevel, preheat, stand on your head.....  If you need to weld 1/4 and up, USE MORE AMPS.I welded the frame on my cheby truck with the same machine and cored wire because that is all I had.  It took all day when I could have done it with a bigger machine in a few hours.   At the time and place, its all I had.  The flanges were much less than 1/4".Yes the weld looks cold because the plate sucks up all the heat faster than the machine can make it.If I put .030 wire in the machine, it wouldn't be as good for its intended use with .023.  My next one up is a wirematic 250 with .035, then an LN-25 with .045, then an LN-25 with 1/16 NR-233.  Its sort of like Pick your weapon.Today I will weld the same plate and same length weld with the recomended 200 amps.  We will see if I can break that one.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:cool thread david about how far you can go with you with a what you have got me thinking so I got a piece of 3/4 and had a crack at welding to 5/8 with my 240v 250amp mig so I had a quick go at it and heres  how it went didn't try to break as i have nothing big enough here at home to hit the sucker with  the worst part is that I welded it to the mounting plate for my bender so now I have to grind the bugger off  Creative metal Creative metal Facebook
Reply:Yup, no penetration of the weld into the base/parent material.  A cold joint.Short-circuit welding is a lower-energy welding method to begin with, as compared to spray transfer.  Then the C-8 gas is a lower energy gas as well, but a decent 'all-around' choice because it is generally fine for MIG on mild steel and supports short-circuit transfer as well as spray transfer (with the right machine!).  The 0.023/0.025 wire is waaaaaaay out of its league trying to do 3/8 plate, no matter what machine you run it in.  My charts don't list the small wire (only go down to 0.030 wire), but even a big machine can push only so many amps through a wire before the wire reaches current saturation.  Turn up the wire speed and you don't get any more amps, just faster wire melting.  And amps is what is making the heat to melt the metal.  0.035 solid wire will only push ~280A MAX, no matter how big a machine is feeding it (at ~720ipm btw), 0.030 wire will only push ~200A MAX, extrapolating the chart gives me a SWAG of ~100-130A MAX for 0.023/0.025 wire. And there is a BIG difference from 1/4 to 3/8 plate in the amount of heat needed.I think we pretty much agree that the 120V MIG machines are handy and useful, but they absolutely have their limits.  And you can only stretch those limits so far even with 'tricks', like preheat and bevel prep.Use the proper tool, and size of tool, for the job.  Breaking up a concrete sidewalk  or forging steel with a 2 oz jeweler's hammer isn't going to work.  Trying to do jewelry with a 16 lb sledge isn't right either.BTW, thanks for the experiment and pics David.  Can you try the 120V MIG with some 0.030 wire and preheat and double-bevel prep and weld the joint on both sides?  I'm curious to see if the 100A machine can stretch that far with about all the tricks we can throw in.  Maybe 0.035 FCAW with the tricks as well (flux-core wire burns hotter than solid wire).
Reply:I read through this quickly so if I repeat sorry... It would be an excellent idea to make sure that the mill scale is ground off. It makes a big difference in the integritry of your weld.
Reply:I have more.  First I 100% agree with Moon rise.  I wanted to weld with 200 amps using .035 wire.  My formula went out the window.  I should have been able to use a wire speed of 320.  There is a curve there for wire amp carrying capicty.  To get up to 200 amps I ended up over 400 ipm.  Like stated earlier, book sez .045 wire.  We welded the same plate and could NOT break it with a hammer.  Last time we used a 1 lb dead blow.  Today we used a 2 lb dead blow.  Weld size was about the same, 1 1/4" long.  Then we got out the big crescent wrench and after some tugging, the weld split in two.  Penatration was fine.  You can see in the pic, the weld broke out of the plate about 1/8" in one spot.  We also tried it with some 1/8" 7018 at 135 amps.  Same thing, the weld broke right down the middle.This has been fun, my 15 year old son was working with me today and yesterday, so He saw what I have been telling him for a while.  Now everything he welds he tries to break.I didn't remove the mill scale because I wouldn't on a regular job.One more thing.  If you welded the plate verticle up with the 110v mig, it would defanitly be stronger.  No I am not going to try that one.David Attached ImagesReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I gotta agree with PrecisionSystems concerning the mill scale.  It definately has to go, along with anything else covering up clean bare metal.  Plus I could not see where the ground clamp was, and suspect that the ground could be closer to the weld, and clamped to clean, bare metal.  I also think that .35wire with straight CO2, or .35 fluxcore might get you closer to weld integrity.cricman
Reply:The mill scale or grounding seems to be causing the lack of penitration, I know from personal experience that you can weld 3/8" with a 110v mig and get the peices to stick much better than that. Heck, with proper prep and beveling you can stick two peices of 3/16" together well enough to pass a county building inspection, again I know that from personal experiance. I would recomend a heavier duty machine, the peices I did were non loda bearing, but had to pass the same inspection as the load bearing brackets in the structure.
Reply:Circman  Originally Posted by CircmanI also think that .35wire with straight CO2, or .35 fluxcore might get you closer to weld integrity.
Reply:I would like to add what I think is a key point missing from this thread. I believe we are not trying to show the limitation of a 110 weld as such but that I can not obtain any higher amps then 90 on a 20 amp 110 input circuit which is what most 110 mig call for. David was pointing out that the math shows that you can only obtain 90 amps with all 110 mig welders unless you use a 30 amp breaker and make sure all the wire sizes are correct for the draw and then you might be able to make it.  As I found it hard to believe which started the discussion in the chat room the other night with a few of us, David is showing the difference for us. Their does appear to be a difference is the welds for sure. The math does support davids point but I still find it hard to believe the a company like miller would sell a welder with a 140amp out put rating but you will only get 90 if used with the recommended input. I have written and extensive email to miller and i am waiting to hear their response. As to what a 110 welder can do. I have welded allot of 1/8 - 3/8 plus one job we just finished was 5/8 solid square bar on specialized carts all you a 110 mig welder. I do use the proper wire and breaker size as speced by miller for my imput power, ( 110, 20amps ). I found my welder to get allot better penetration then the pictures above. the 5/8 square bar carts hold over 1500 lbs and are subject to industrial environment and abuse all with a 110 mig. All 110 migs can do amazing work but it does take more time and prep then proper size machines. So buying a 110 unit to weld 1/4 - 3/8 all day would be a completed waste of time as david pointed out. When buying a welder, get the right size to fit the jobs you are planning to do and then maybe one size bigger if you have the money. I mostly weld sheet metal and some 1/8. I do weld 1/4 - 3/8 with no trouble but again it takes some prep and experience. I am currently looking at the new Miller DVI which is a 110 and 220 mig combined. when plugged into a 110 circuit you get a 110 mig then you can plug it into a 220 circuit to get the higher amps for bigger welds. This is great for when the input power is an issue and also I find myself that 110 migs do a better job with sheet metal.  Here is a pic of the carts we built. We made all the parts and even a home made roller for the rings. We have 40 of these carts in service now.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:I just wrote this LONG post and the computer ATE IT.First, thanks Jamlit.Readers digest version.  110 Volts * 20 amps = 2200 WATTS.  This will never change.75% efficency * 2200 watts = 1650 Watts.1650 Watts divided by 18 welding volts = 91 AMPSThis is what you get with any good quality 110 volt mig.   An inverter may exceed that efficenty figure, I don't know.I was on the snap on truck.  He had a 140 amp Mig.  I asked him how they got 140 amps out of a 20 amp circut. He said "circut boards" like it was magic.  He is full O crap.  There is no magic in electricity.  Volts times Amps = watts.  These little machines are great. I bought the first one Lincoln made.  An SP100.  I paid $850 for it way back in the early 80s.  I would never part with it.  I use it for what it was made for and no more.  LOOK at the panel pic.  It shows the output and input.This is kind of a pet peeve of mine.  110 migs have a job to do.  Nothing more than that.  If I had welded both sides of the T joint, it would have been harder to break.  Penatration is limited.  That is what you get with 90 amps.   There are all kinds of things you can do to S T R E A C H what the machine can do, but in the end, its still 90 amps.  Flux core will get the most out of your machine.  Then its not a Metal Inert Gas Welder.  Beviling a joint will get more surface area to make up for the lack of penatration.  Cleaning off the mill scale from hot rolled steel will make a better weld.  Verticle up will make a stronger weld.  All these things add up to a more skilled weldor.DavidLast edited by David R; 04-14-2007 at 03:47 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thats about it..Very good post David!...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:This is kind of a pet peeve of mine. 110 migs have a job to do. Nothing more than that.
Reply:140's are rated for 30amp inputs and in reality, you need to figure the voltage at 120v (ideal).  I figure it to be around a maximum of 35 amp input draw at an ideal 140amp output (I dont have any idea really how the engineers figure this stuff out).  I wont bore you with all the figureing I did (200hz short circuits, cv, .2 ohm lowest resistance etc etc) but it came out pretty close to the ratings.  The problem of doing power calculations using ohms law in an ac welder senario is that it comes down to it being cc or cv duty cycle and duration of the shorts during the arc and realizing that the power draw follows suit of the output and is actually an average of the duty cycle of the short.  Its just like how they get those little leds in a remote to transmit 50 ft and they are only rated for 100ma (12v pulse through a 10 ohm resistor) if you use ohms law here you get a whopping 1.2 amps.  The pulse the snot out of em through a really low resistance resistor.  Not a great analogy, but hopefully you get the idea.  10 extra amps on the input makes a big difference on the ouput of the welder.But your right, a 110v machine is just what it is.  Its made for certain things, mobility, and low current applications (output).  Im new to welding and am still learning about welding machines, so correct me if I have missed something very obvious.  thanks for reading.Various GrindersVictor Journeyman torch200cf Acet. 250cf oxygenLincoln 175 plus/alpha2 gunLincoln v205t tigLincoln 350mpEsab 650 plasmaWhen you can get up in the morning, Its a good day.Live each day like its your last.
Reply:The nice thing about using ohms law, it arrives at the absolute worst or best case results, depending on expectations and perspective. It just cannot be better or worse than that. One might argue that ohms law does not apply in the strictest sense to this circuit type or that circuit type, however the limits are restricted to those dictated by ohms law.In short (pun) there is no way to get more out of a device that you can put into it. Due to many variables you may get less yes, but more no. Ohms law is perfect for estimating maximum outputs and/or maximum usages and/or maximum abilities.
Reply:Okay - information post only. This is not intended to bend the mind of anyone or trick them into thinking something else. It is SPECIFIC information.  Jamlit and I were trying to get in touch with Miller by e-mail. Finally decided to give them a call today. Long story short, here is what they said, " It is not a simple matter of 110v through-put. The 110v AC is converted to  > 30 v AC then it is converted to to DC." The gentleman I spoke with said he will e-mail with specifics shortly. He also said, "yes, the MM140 will produce the stated amperage range, 30 to 140." He continues, "we do NOT inflate that number and if we did, we would be in BIG trouble." He briefly stated it's a result of converting the given power to an output at a given amperage. Along the same lines, here is the e-mail that Jam received while I was on the phone: James,Thank you for your inquiry on the MM 140.The Rated Output Amps is 90 Amps.  This is where we rate the Duty Cycle at the average maximum output.So at 90 amps your Duty Cycle is 20%.  The 140 will produce 140 amps on a 110v, 20 amp circuit, but your Duty Cycle will be about 10% or 1 minute of welding before the 140 shuts down to cool off.This should answer your question but if you have any other questions please do not hesitate to call me at 920-735-4384.Thank you again,Brian SchmidtCustomer ServiceMiller Electric  So, in closing, you CAN get 130 or 140 amps out of a 110v machine. I hope this helps decipher any confusion. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Yup, you certainly can get 130-140 amps of output current out of a 110-120V welder.  But just like the Miller rep said, the duty cycle on the machine at that output level is about 10%, so you may get a minute or so of arc time before the machine gets too warm and its built-in thermal protection shuts the machine's output down until it cools off.The current crop of 'home' machines seem to rate the output and duty-cycle at around a 20% duty-cycle for the small 110-120V machines, and 20%-30% for the smaller 220-240V 'home' machines.At less than the "rated" output current, the duty-cycle increases (less output current means less heat in the machine means a longer duty-cycle).  That holds true for -any- welder.Bigger machines and industrial machines may have a different nameplate number, but the facts of "more output = lower duty-cycle" still applies.  Of course the bigger machines may have bigger everythings, so their limits may come more from how much power is being supplied to them rather than how much output they are cranking out.  Industry may need a machine than can run flat-out at 400 Amps output continously, home and small(er) shops might not need that much machine (and the power to feed it, and the cost, etc).If you are welding 'thick' stuff, then the 110-120V MIG welders are not the proper choice of tool to do that.  But -can- they weld some steel thicker than sheet metal?  Oh yeah!  How thick?  It depends on prep and preheat and operator skill a bit more than just slapping the metal close and arcing it together.But they (and pretty much any machine) have limits as to how far you can stretch the upper-bounds.  David's machine with his set-up was past its limits trying to do 3/8 steel plate in a T-joint with no bevel prep or preheat.  His machine maxes out at 100A.  That's all she's got.  Newer 110-120V MIG machines run up to 130-140A max (probably from better and more efficient 'guts' in the machines than older beasts).  The newer machines will still typically be at a 10% duty-cycle when pushed to the max, but they have a little bit more snot than a 100A MAX machine (30% to 40% more snot).And vertical up will give better penetration than vertical down welding, but flat/horizontal will let you get the max because you don't have to worry about gravity pulling the weld pool away.  You can just pour the heat in and take your time without the weld pool dripping away from you.  Or if you have a machine with enough output volts/amps, then you dial it up and go into spray transfer mode and do it horizontally.
Reply:No one has looked at the gas used 92% argon 8% CO2 the excess argon is what lets him weld hotter the same as when you use tig . Argon lets the electrical potential go to the work much better and you weld in a spray transfer or a high globular transfer (flat only) CO2 over 15% will not allow you to spray. the only gas better for mig or tig for max heat is helium The beauty of 92/8 is you can short arc, spray or globular transfer.I am just learning all the terms and types of welding an their specific areas. As I was into a very interesting chat with one of our members on this topic in the chat room and had a desire to learn more I started reading more. I am under the understanding that 110 mig welding could not acheive spray transfer. I know that different types of gases can change the weld heat and penetration and as I have not tried them all can not say from experience here. I have read that pure argon and argon content above 90% will give you good welds and penetration but will lack the proper width for a good stronge weld. Also I read that CO2 would give you a hotter weld and better penetration but will have higher splatter then the Argon mixes. I run pure CO2 and the Argon/CO2/O2 trimix gas for body work and find the CO2 to be better for thinker material. I have welded for a long time and consider myself a good welder but I have only learned from others and experience. Anyone please feel free to add or correct this post so we can all learn a bit more and get better results for out 110 welders.Thanks Micro for posting my email and the information you found out. I am very interested in see the information you are recieving to see the specifics as to how a 110 mig achieves the rated output vs the rated input.Last edited by jamlit; 04-16-2007 at 04:17 PM.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseAnd vertical up will give better penetration than vertical down welding, but flat/horizontal will let you get the max because you don't have to worry about gravity pulling the weld pool away.
Reply:I have been looking into getting a 110v mig welder. With all this said, is it worth paying a little more for the 140a than just getting the 135a or possibly 100a? I want to atleat weld 1/4 inch.
Reply:if you plan to be welding 1/4" you should realy look into a 180Amp or higher welder. as said above you can get the max out of the lil 110V welders but only for verry short times.if i had a steady diet of 1/4" i would look at a MM210. i have a MM135 and think its great and with proper fit, prep, and preheat i could get away with a 1/4" weld that would likely hold for anything i would be useing it for but not anything i would sell if it was a safty isue concerned. i have done a lot with my MM135 but its still just a MM135 and as such i would not have gotten it if 1/4" was my intended use. that said 1/4" is prity thick stuff and most home shops wont see much in that range. i also have a TA-185 that would alow me the thicker options if i needed it so the MM135 is fine for the lil stuff. take a close look at what you intend to be welding on, most of my truck is 1/8" and under. summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.
Reply:Sorry folks, I spent too much time trying to do the 3G with 7018 to play with the little mig.  Probably thursday night.I DID finally get the verticle up thing......FINALLY.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Wow!  Lots of interesting observations in this thread.  Just when you thought it had been beaten pretty much to death, I have a new question:How did David R. get a 30 amp 110 volt circuit?  Just install a 30 amp breaker in a normal 20 amp circuit?  Run #10 wire?  What type of receptacle?  What voltage drop on the primary side?If it was just installing an oversize breaker in a 20 amp circuit, it wouldn't make any difference in weld current UNLESS the 20 amp breaker was actually opening during his experiments, preventing him from running the bead for 1-1/4".  Was that the case?  Considering the time/current rating on ordinary household breakers and considering the time it takes to run a 1-1/4" bead, I would be surprised if the 20 amp breaker popped.  If it didn't, you are not getting any more current with the 30 amp breaker.  Conversely, if it was a dedicated circuit with #10 wire, I can see that it could supply more current to the machine due to lower voltage drop on the primary side which might result in more weld current.If it is a 12 AWG, 20 amp circuit with an oversize breaker (which would probably meet code for a circuit DEDICATED to a welder, although I haven't checked the duty cycle correction), you run into code and safety problems just putting a oversize breaker in a general purpose 20 amp circuit, expecially if you forget to restore the original breaker when you are finished.I guess my question is, since the primary purpose of a 110 volt welder is to be able to use it anywhere, what good does it do to push it to its absolute limit on a 30 amp circuit that you will never find in the field?I do realize that this was an experiment and complement David R. and other contributors for adding to our knowledge base on the capabilities of 110 volt welders.  Frankly, I was happy to trade off my 110 volt unit (of embarrassing brand name that I won't reveal here, but I picked it up at salvage) for a cordless drill/driver, even before I got my bottom-of-the-line 230 volt unit (also on salvage, but brand new).awrightLast edited by awright; 04-18-2007 at 01:51 PM.
Reply:Awright,No quotes, just hope I can answer your questions.1.  I am not an electricion.2.  Both times I welded till the breaker popped.3. Today I put the 30 amp breaker on a #10 wire to the outlet just below the panel.  The breaker didn't pop for the first time.4.  I would never trade off my 110 volt welder.  I run a truck repair shop.  I do exhaust.  There is no better way.  Pics in next postDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:OK, I did everything you guys asked.  C02, TRUE 30 amp breaker and circut.  Grind off mill scale, ground clamped to the piece and verticle up.   I set the volts to high, set the wire speed on a piece of plate flat.  5.5.  Switching to verticle up, I had to turn the wire up to almost 7 to get a nice smooth arc.  This is 2 passes.  You can see the first one didn't do much except preheat. Look at the blue in the top plate and look at the ones I did with 92/8. Attached ImagesReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:AWS term for what we see here is "incomplete fusion".  Other common but "non-standard" terms are "cold lap" and "lack of fusion".  These welds were not fused at the root of the fillet joint.  You can see the blue discoloration in the unfused "gap" that was exposed to air while at elevated temperature.  Technically, AWS (and other codes) only require a fillet weld to have 100% "fusion" with the surface of the plates, along the full length of each fillet leg, all the way into the root of the joint.  The weld melt does not really have to "penetrate" into the plates to any particular distance.  If a fillet weld were cross sectioned, polished, and etched to show the weld melt zone and the base metal heat affected zone, you just need to see fusion, not measurable penetration.  Of course, if you see that the base metal melting, or penetration, extends into the plates by some amount, this shows the weld is safely on the hot side, and gives confidence that it is not anywhere close to incomplete fusion.Not sure, but maybe instead of using such a broad weave pattern, a stringer pass aimed directly at the root may have gotten better fusion .
Reply:Forgive me for not quite understanding what you feel has been demonstrated by these experiments, David R., but what is your conclusion regarding the useability of your 110 volt welder on 3/8" plate with any technique or preparation?Just so my question does not end up looking like entrapment, my own conclusion from all the photos in this thread is that the 110 volt welder is totally inadequate for 3/8" plate (in agreement with my experience with my happily traded off 110 volt welder).Quite honestly, it seems to me that if you are building something out of 3/8" plate, you presumably need strength in your welds somewhat commensurate with the strength of the plate.  If not, why use 3/8" plate?None of the welds I see in the photos in this thread appear to be remotely adequate for anything other than tacking something together in preperation for finish welding with an adequate machine.  I don't see any significant penetration in any of the photos.  Looks like the bead was laid on with a caulking gun.  What am I missing here?Please don't be offended.  Maybe I missed your main point.By the way, I have no quibble with the useability of the 110 volt machine on exhaust tubing (which I have never worked with) or on sheet metal or other light jobs.awright
Reply:Awright, that is my point.  It aint big enough.  The beads look like that because the plate takes the heat away.  Ya  can't weld 3/8 with a 110 mig.  No, I am not offended.   Pulser, there IS a stringer root pass, but it was useless because there is no heat.The darker colored metal was the root pass.  It was small and therefore NO heat was put into the plate.  No penatration.  The wider bead had more heat because I spent more time welding adding heat.  On the second pass, the weld did break instead of just pulling away from the plate.I did the last sample because a bunch of guys said I would get more penatration if I removed the mill scale and used Co2.  A few people have posted they have welded 3/8 sucessfully.  It might have looked good, but......With the Co2, I had to turn the wire speed down so I lost amps because it takes more volts to get a good arc with Co2.   No gain there.  The only thing that seemed to help is more weld on the plate.  Still not even close to a propper weld.Have we beat this one to death yet?    I need a new project.I did spary weld a pair of the same plates.  Couldn't break em.  Same weld, 1 1/4" long in the horizantal position.Another great use for the 110 mig is to tack a big job together.  If you don't like it, just whack whith a hammer, grind off the little nub and tack it again.  DavidLast edited by David R; 04-19-2007 at 06:35 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Great experiment and comments. I had this same issue (what does a 110v mig really churn out) at the Hobart board.Another tidbit about 110v migs. Hobart & Miller both claim 140 amps out with a voltage of about 15.5, down from the nominal 18-19v. Look at their power slopes in the machines manuals. You'll see what I mean. If mig/flux is insensitive to lower voltage levels then........Why doesn't Miller/Hobart/Lincoln continue the slope to 12v with a corresponding 200 amps of output and a 5% duty cycle? It would make for such a nice marketing tool. Think of it, a 200 amp 110v mig.Anyhow, one more thing. How exactly do I get the 140 amps from a HH140? What stickout, wfs, tap, etc do I use? There isn't a single setting documented anywhere on the planet that I can find. Just an output slope in a manual. I suspect the contact tip would need to be in the puddle to get a true 140 amps of output.And at times I may be dense but IIRC the book says 1/4" with 140 amps is doable but none of the 110v migs are single pass rated for that thickness.Enough rambling, I love my 110v Century, it does a great job and I can take it anywhere.Last edited by wallythacker; 04-19-2007 at 11:38 AM.Craftsman 230a Buzz-box,  Lincoln 140T & 180T, Century K2789, PUROX W202 O/A14" cheapo chop saw that cuts straight and square!A toolbox of the cheapest Chinese tools money can buy"Real" tools all old reliable Husky/Craftsman/Proto stuff
Reply:Yup, that's a pretty good demonstration of "Lack of fusion".  The welder couldn't put enough heat into the weld to get the filler to melt (fuse) into the base material.  If the base material doesn't melt, the filler is just 'caulked' on top and is a sorry excuse for a weld.Dave's 100A MAX 110-120V MIG can not put enough heat into the weld to produce a satisfactory joint on 3/8 plate in a T-joint.You can only 'stretch' the capabilities of a machine so far.  Dave has nicely demonstrated that 3/8 plate in a T-joint is waaay beyond the capabilites of his machine.OK Dave, you want a new project along the same lines?  How about figuring out how far you -can- stretch your little MIG unit?  We know the 3/8 is beyond its capabilites, and I think that 1/8 should be do-able with that machine.  So do some test coupons with 1/8 plate, then if that is OK move up to 3/16, if that is OK then move up to 1/4 plate, etc.  To be consistent with this go-round of the experiment, just do everything in a T-joint.
Reply:Dave just needs to buy a Clarke.  You CAN push the newer units to their maximum. Here is where I pushed my little winky Clarke 130EN to 132 Amps. The extra 2 amps is from squeezing the trigger harder.  Grind mill scale, bevel only (bad pic):Better pic, the entire bottom support is 3/8" material welded to the 3/8" HF material, take NOTICE of the small 3/8" angle pieces, VERY good penetration: Again, no pre-heat, just grind mill and bevel (better pic): The small MIG's are nice for a quick project like this because I can hit the "ON" button and start shooting sparks. My TIG/Stick I have to set up, switch controls, switch guns, so it is a convenience more than anything. Again, MILLER has stated their machines will sustain 140 A but for a shorter duty cycle. Through modern electrical design, power can be converted to just about anything. Shoot, there are 500V 560uF capacitors in my Plasma TV. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:If you get 140 amps out of the hobart, and it is at 15 volts, you can't weld.  The best thing to do is put on an inductive ampmeter.  SEE what it puts out in REAL amps.  The inverters have are more efficient than the transformer ones.  63 to 75% verses 85 to 90% makes for more power out.  My invertec V350 uses less amps at 250 amp output than my wirematic 250 (transformer) by about 25%.  I know this by watching my peak demand electric meter.MOONRISE,I have beveled both sides of a 1/4 X 1" flat bar and welded it with the SP 100.  I put in the vice and bent it.  Just like the real test.  It would not break or crack at the weld.  This is as big as I think this machine will go and that was with a lot of prep.Microzone, nice looking welds.  ARE YOU SURE they penatrated?    Do it again and cut through with a hack saw and see.  Post Pics.  My LN9-GMA showed up today.  I am going to try it out tonight.  This will have .045 wire in it.  Hooked to the V350, it should be able to weld 3/8   425 amps, up to 45 volts.  DavidDavidLast edited by David R; 04-19-2007 at 04:34 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:David - i'll take some scrap pieces and do it towards this weekend. I'm not feeling too hot right now. I have some stomach bug. Oh - you'll have to pay me to cut apart the Bead Roller!  edit > I'll do both butt and T weld on 3/8" beveled, sound like a plan?John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:nice welds John!!-Clarke 130EN-Miller MaxStar 150STL-Miller Elite 29' Roadster
Reply:Thanks Derek, not bad for a novice, eh? John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:David,OK, your SP100 can do MIG on 1/4 inch steel with double-bevel prep.  But 3/8 steel is too much.  How about 5/16?  Can it stretch that far, or is 1/4 inch as far as it will go?And MicroZone's machine has 130A (well 132A from him squeezing the trigger extra hard) compared to the SP100 with 100A.  That's 30A and 30% more!btw, good discussion and experiment.  We know the little 120V MIG machines aren't the right tool for working on thick(er) steel, but it is nice to see pics of how far that they can go and how thick is beyond their capabilities.
Reply:Yes sir, nothing like a good quality technical discussion without anyone getting heated and mad. This forum is THE BEST I've come across in a decade! Great bunch of guys and girls.  off topic - i'm sicker than 2 dogs right now, cold chills and fever so I'll try to get those test pieces done soon.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Miicrozone, GET better so you can saw the plate in two.   .  Sure, the weather finally breaks and you go and get sick.   Bummer.Moonrise.  I doubt if microzone can get 132 amps, I would have to put on an inductive amp meter to SEE the amps.  I have a couple.  Microzone's welder is not here.  The shop next door has a handler 135, I might borrow that.See all the math above about getting or than 90 amps out of a 20 amp circut.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:keep in mind softer steels will melt easyer then others so some will have a bit to do with the steel makup but its verry true you have sereous limitations with a 90/130/140 amp MIG no dought. dont asume just because the bead stuck to it its welded. i would be beveling and swerling the begezess out of it if i did 3/8" summer is here, plant a tree for mother earth. if you dont have time or space, sponcer some one else to plant one for you.feel free to shoot me a PM or e-mail me at [email][email protected] i got lots of time.
Reply:Originally Posted by fun4now.keep in mind softer steels will melt easyer then others so some will have a bit to do with the steel makup
Reply:Originally Posted by David RIf you get 140 amps out of the hobart, and it is at 15 volts, you can't weld.  The best thing to do is put on an inductive ampmeter.  SEE what it puts out in REAL amps.David
Reply:I just want to say this and hopefully nobody takes offense: if you guys are naive enough to think these large manufacturers are stupid enough to over rate their welders, then we need to immediately file a class action lawsuit. With that said, I'm fairly confident enough that their Electrical Engineers know how, more-so than ANY of us, to take 110-120V and convert it to a final 130 or 140 amp output. Food for thought, think about it.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com