A Reel Failure..........

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Today I extemporaneously decided to build a reel for my stick welding lead..... I have been heaving that 50' around for years in my garage and it hangs on the wall when not in use......Having never built one before.... I wasn't sure what to expect.... In the end.... it didn't work out very well...... but now.... because of the lack luster result....... I have a new design in mind......Pics of today's effort that ended in a Reel frustrating result......PICS......Got this idea for lube off one of my favorite Youtube channels.......Tacking up to get it straight......The idea of a wall mount was my mistake.... it seemed good in my head.... here is a pic of one of the welds on the wall mount....Precision TIG 185 and MP 210Bobcat 225NTCutmaster 42O/A tanks.... 2 Argon tanks...... 2 C25 TanksFacebook...... F2 Metal WorksETSY....... https://www.etsy.com/shop/F2MetalWorksF2MetalWorks.com....... http://www.f2metalworks.com/
Reply:And the final pics......I originally thought that if I welded 1" at a time.... let it cool... then tie in and do another inch.... I could minimize distortion..... this turned out to be wrong logic......I realized that after TIG welding 3" in just 1" increments...... that what I should have done was only weld four 1" welds at 12.... 3..... 6.... and 9 O'Clock to minimize distortion........ In the end my fit up wasn't very good on the mounting bracket.... and when it was all over.... I realized that what I should have done was have only a single sided swing arm..... instead of both sides......This way I would have room for buckling that lead to the real and that way it would work properly..... allowing me to have a separate lead attachment to go to the machine.... and the reel would work properly.....As it is.... I'm hoping I can salvage at least the Reel.... I'll be tossing the mounting bracket......Precision TIG 185 and MP 210Bobcat 225NTCutmaster 42O/A tanks.... 2 Argon tanks...... 2 C25 TanksFacebook...... F2 Metal WorksETSY....... https://www.etsy.com/shop/F2MetalWorksF2MetalWorks.com....... http://www.f2metalworks.com/
Reply:Nicely done sir!Miller Dynasty 200DXMiller Spectrum 250DMiller Millermatic 200Bunch of old blue dinosaurs....
Reply:That's cool, but isn't leaving it wound up and using it going to be a bad idea for your welder..? I know inverters do not like that at all.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Good effort there Fexal. I have learned the most when I screw something and then go back and make it right, cause I cant let it win.Ranger 250 thick stuffHobart Handler 140 not thick stuffthe pane and oxy setup
Reply:distortion is nothing a rubber or rawhide mallot cant fit neatly done sir'14 HTP invertig 221Thermal Arc 201ts'15 HTP 2400'13 Hypertherm Powermax 30Esab 875Esab 251Clark Metal Servicespecializing in stainless steel exhaust systems
Reply:Can't wait to see the revised version. Reel 2.0!Hobart 125 EZHobart Handler 140Everlast STH 160Generic 210 Amp Welder/GeneratorHobart Air Force 500i plasma cutterChinese 50 amp plasma cutter! Youtube Channel : Henrymac100
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleThat's cool, but isn't leaving it wound up and using it going to be a bad idea for your welder..? I know inverters do not like that at all.
Reply:I was gonna say make sure you uncoil the leads when in use....do t know the exact reason but have heard that a no on having the leads tightly coiled. I watched a youtube vid and they added more coils like that to make super current draw so I am assuming it will do the same to your welder...Miller Syncrowave 210 w/CK FlexLoc 150  3/6/14ESAB PCM 1125 Plasma CutterAtlas 12x36 LatheACER 9x42 3hp millHarig 612 Surface GrinderDRINK Machine              welding&fabrication
Reply:Originally Posted by FexalReally?Why is it bad?
Reply:Originally Posted by FexalReally?Why is it bad?
Reply:I never thought of that.....I have a Squarewave machine.... and my lead is usually coiled up.... albeit not very tight........When welding vertical up I fight arc blow at school really bad..... not so much at home.....Nonetheless...... I am now thinking I might cut that lead in half since 50' in a home garage is WAY too much...... although.... if I want to weld something on the other side of the acre i could probably do it with as much lead as I have...... Precision TIG 185 and MP 210Bobcat 225NTCutmaster 42O/A tanks.... 2 Argon tanks...... 2 C25 TanksFacebook...... F2 Metal WorksETSY....... https://www.etsy.com/shop/F2MetalWorksF2MetalWorks.com....... http://www.f2metalworks.com/
Reply:Don't cut it in half!  Better to sell it, and then buy a 25 footer. Or just buy a 25 footer, and save the 50 for jobs that demand it.
Reply:Fex - coiled leads are an inductor that will oppose changes in voltage.  on AC, you get a electromagnetic field building and collapsing with every change in current direction.  not sure if that truly affects things.  on DC, it would occur when you strike or break the arc, and I guess a bit if your arc length changes.  how much it matters I don't know, but I try to keep welding leads uncoiled even if it means snaking them.  Could be just superstition in me.  I even try to do the same with extension cords and power tools... Then again, I don't walk underneath ladders, open umbrellas indoors or break mirrors.Nice project, but how about just mounting an old wheel rim on a piece of pipe?  You'd avoid having such a tight wrap at the beginning.I put tweeco connectors on my old welding leads to avoid the issue you're having.  Keeps things neat for the 95% of time and easy enough to add length.
Reply:You see a lot of rigs around here with lead reels. I ran them on my rig for 10 years and never spooled off all the cable unless I needed that length to reach something and still have those leads. The only problem I ever saw was someone that never unrolled much of their leads and eventually the bottom roll would develop brittle insulation that would crack from the heat that built up from being covered up. No difference in the arc of the SA 200 either. Another popular holder is to wrap them around a rectangle shaped holder by hand that is basically the same as a spool. The first rig I built has cable boxes that the leads were coiled in that were covered with doors. Another popular thing is recessed tube shaped holders made from 12-14" pipe with a bottom welded in. Just throw out the amount of lead needed and leave the rest in the holder. I've used them all at some and different lengths of time and never had a problem. I always used long leads because of some of the places I would have to reach, usually at least 100' of each.
Reply:Yes, it is due to the inductance that is created when an arc is struck, and then again as the arc is broken when welding DC.Inductance when welding AC is often thought to be self cancelling but I would not bank on that being true in all cases.The more heavily "electronified" the welding machine, the more likely it is to sustain damage or interference due to induced current possibly running amok in the circuitry.As to the distortion caused by heat of weld.  You need to stop for a moment and look at your reel.  The 2 side discs that keep the coiled cable neatly wound on the center spindle are doing nothing but keeping the cable coils stacked neatly within their confines.  As that is the only role the discs play in this application, there is no real need to have welded the entire center of the discs to the center spindle tube.  For the very small stresses involved here, you could have used 3 "half inch long" welds at 120 degrees spacing on each disc and that would have been more than sufficient.  Very few welding situations (in structural welding) require an "all or nothing" philosophy.  Generally speaking, the minimum amount of weld required to handle the physical stresses of the job is better than just aiming to fill every possible void with weld deposit.  This becomes especially  important where objectionable warping, distortion, or movement needs to be held in check.Sometimes it's hard to resist the urge to weld it up completely, but trust me, sometimes a little is better than a lot.  (you don't really need to ask me how I know)
Reply:I've kept my leads on reels for at least 25 years now and have had no problems and I never pull them all off unless I need them and there is a hundred feet of each on them. I sold my last Trailblazer when it was 18 years old and it was still welding just fine. I think you will be just fine.Just a question though. Why did you TIG weld it? Any other process would have been faster and work just as well.
Reply:I was trying to use up the last few pounds of argon in one of my tanks so that's really the only reason for tig.....Precision TIG 185 and MP 210Bobcat 225NTCutmaster 42O/A tanks.... 2 Argon tanks...... 2 C25 TanksFacebook...... F2 Metal WorksETSY....... https://www.etsy.com/shop/F2MetalWorksF2MetalWorks.com....... http://www.f2metalworks.com/
Reply:Must have been one bad fish to cause reel failure!  Attached ImagesCity of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Looks like a good reel. I need to make one so I don't have to drag my leads around all the timeThermal Arc 211iVictor torchesLots of grinders
Reply:What size wire is that?  What you need is a shorter, lighter whip for general use.  Only drag out the big one when needed.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Originally Posted by RodJFex - coiled leads are an inductor that will oppose changes in voltage.  on AC, you get a electromagnetic field building and collapsing with every change in current direction.  not sure if that truly affects things.  on DC, it would occur when you strike or break the arc, and I guess a bit if your arc length changes.  how much it matters I don't know, but I try to keep welding leads uncoiled even if it means snaking them.  Could be just superstition in me.  I even try to do the same with extension cords and power tools... Then again, I don't walk underneath ladders, open umbrellas indoors or break mirrors.Nice project, but how about just mounting an old wheel rim on a piece of pipe?  You'd avoid having such a tight wrap at the beginning.I put tweeco connectors on my old welding leads to avoid the issue you're having.  Keeps things neat for the 95% of time and easy enough to add length.
Reply:Ok so on this inductance topic... I have long heavy stick leads... When I leave them coiled on the floor while I am working I have noticed grinder dust in the shape of the coils on the floor when I pick them up... Is this because the current running around the coil is creating a magnetic field? I have not had any act issues to speak of...Miller Dynasty 300 DXMiller CST280Miller Maxstar 150 STH
Reply:Yes, it is. This can sometimes be used to counteract arc blow when doing DC stick welding on magnetized steel. Sometimes it doesn't help a bit.
Reply:Originally Posted by SilveradoOk so on this inductance topic... I have long heavy stick leads... When I leave them coiled on the floor while I am working I have noticed grinder dust in the shape of the coils on the floor when I pick them up... Is this because the current running around the coil is creating a magnetic field? I have not had any act issues to speak of...Fascinating!! Here's a pic to show everyone what I'm talking about (not trying to hijack this thread or anything just find this pretty interesting)Miller Dynasty 300 DXMiller CST280Miller Maxstar 150 STH
Reply:What did you use to make the initial round (outer) cut for the reel sides? Wouldn't take much more work to turn that into an air hose reel.Bruce
Reply:I think he was using oxifuel... I saw a torch on one of the pictures in the first posts.
Reply:I used my plasma to cut the circles using a center punch and circle maker from swag off-road........Anything under 3/8" I use plasma..... Everything else gets the torch.......I also witness grinder dust following the lines of my lead while coiled up on the floor......Precision TIG 185 and MP 210Bobcat 225NTCutmaster 42O/A tanks.... 2 Argon tanks...... 2 C25 TanksFacebook...... F2 Metal WorksETSY....... https://www.etsy.com/shop/F2MetalWorksF2MetalWorks.com....... http://www.f2metalworks.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauThat's what is causing it. If you look closer at the grinder dust, the longer pieces of it will be aligned pointing towards the welding leads, not laying around in a random pattern. Caused by electromagnetic inductance. I have also witnessed welding leads wrapped around a rack, flexing when an arc is struck and during the weld. When the arc is broken, the leads go limp again, this is when welding with higher amperages. These were with racks made as a simple L shape, one pointing up, one down that the lead was wrapped around.
Reply:One ship I worked on we had about 150 feet of cable coiled on a hook and sometimes you could see the coil of cable move when an arc was struck.M&R JohnsonMiller 180SDLincoln weld pak 180Hobart 250ciMill Lathe
Reply:Originally Posted by mnrjohnsonOne ship I worked on we had about 150 feet of cable coiled on a hook and sometimes you could see the coil of cable move when an arc was struck.M&R Johnson
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauI mentioned seeing the same thing up in post #26 ^^^^^.
Reply:Voltage across an inductor is inductance times the rate of change of current. V=L*dI/dtOne way to think of it is like adding momentum to the flow of electricity, a softer start and a big increase in voltage when the circuit is broken. It does not resist constant DC current but it will interfere with AC. I always try to avoid coiling my extension cords.I have read in the Lincoln manual warning that big coils can overheat simply from resistance heating. The current carrying capacity is rated based on the ability to dissipate resistance heat. In a tight coil or bundle the conductor will be surrounded by other warm conductors and the heat has nowhere to go.Does anyone figure-8 their leads? The advantage is that there are no net twists in the cable, no rotating reel, disconnect or slip rings required. I like to figure-8 mine around my forearms as I coil them, lay them down that way, then pull them out fully when I use them. I am thinking about a holder that would look like an oval box about 12x30" to drop the figure-8 into with a roller guide above it to allow easy payoff. Or maybe just a pair of horizontal mandrels pointing slightly inward for easy payoff and some kind of removable keeper or have them inside a tool box so the shut door prevents the cables from falling off.Lincoln SA200, HH135, Lencospot, HF80 Inverter, Rockwell 11x35 lathe, HF drill mill, Kama 554 tractor w/ FEL & BH, Belarus 250AS, lot's of Chinese tools
Reply:Originally Posted by Brad BlazerVoltage across an inductor is inductance times the rate of change of current. V=L*dI/dtOne way to think of it is like adding momentum to the flow of electricity, a softer start and a big increase in voltage when the circuit is broken. It does not resist constant DC current but it will interfere with AC. I always try to avoid coiling my extension cords.I have read in the Lincoln manual warning that big coils can overheat simply from resistance heating. The current carrying capacity is rated based on the ability to dissipate resistance heat. In a tight coil or bundle the conductor will be surrounded by other warm conductors and the heat has nowhere to go.Does anyone figure-8 their leads? The advantage is that there are no net twists in the cable, no rotating reel, disconnect or slip rings required. I like to figure-8 mine around my forearms as I coil them, lay them down that way, then pull them out fully when I use them. I am thinking about a holder that would look like an oval box about 12x30" to drop the figure-8 into with a roller guide above it to allow easy payoff. Or maybe just a pair of horizontal mandrels pointing slightly inward for easy payoff and some kind of removable keeper or have them inside a tool box so the shut door prevents the cables from falling off.
Reply:Impedance is a general term for circuits that include elements more complex than resistors. The impedance caused by an inductor or capacitor is the effect of storing energy as an electromagnetic field (inductor) or a concentration of electrons/potential across a dielectric barrier (capacitor). This energy is not converted to heat. I was talking about heat generated by resistance in the conductor commonly called (I-squared)R losses. This is the same whether the cables are laid out straight or in a coil, at least for DC. With fluctuating current I'm sure there may be some locally high currents and eddy currents induced by the coil which would contribute to some more I^2*R heating.Now it's a thermal conductivity problem. In a cable laid out straight the heat flows across one layer of insulation to the ambient air. In a coil that can not happen because most of the cable is surrounded by more cable and it's all generating heat.Just to show I'm not making this up, Here is what OSHA says:1910.254(d)(2)Machine hook up. Before starting operations all connections to the machine shall be checked to make certain they are properly made. The work lead shall be firmly attached to the work; magnetic work clamps shall be freed from adherent metal particles of spatter on contact surfaces. Coiled welding cable shall be spread out before use to avoid serious overheating and damage to insulation.https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...ARDS&p_id=9855Cable mfg. spec sheet - look at the safety requirements. The table showing the current rating at max duty cycle is completely based on the heat transfer properties assuming the cable is laid out and not coiled.http://www.superstarcable.com/images...ue%20Black.pdfLast edited by Brad Blazer; 03-23-2014 at 06:56 AM.Lincoln SA200, HH135, Lencospot, HF80 Inverter, Rockwell 11x35 lathe, HF drill mill, Kama 554 tractor w/ FEL & BH, Belarus 250AS, lot's of Chinese tools
Reply:Of course if you fart around like me your duty cycle might allow you to keep your cables coiled in a Yeti cooler full of packing peanuts.Lincoln SA200, HH135, Lencospot, HF80 Inverter, Rockwell 11x35 lathe, HF drill mill, Kama 554 tractor w/ FEL & BH, Belarus 250AS, lot's of Chinese tools