Advantages to lift-start TIG over HF start TIG

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I notice that a lot of welders have lift-start to initiate the arc when TIG welding.  Mine does.  When reading manuals about this it says that it "starts the arc without the use of high frequency" like HF is a bad thing in certain situations.If a welder had HF, then why would a company go out of the way to do the research and development to add lift-start too of lift-start is so primitive and requires more skill?Are there certain welding situations where HF start is a bad thing?  Are there situations where lift-start has an advantage?
Reply:I think around some electronics the HF can play havoc...( that and if you make the mistake of getting the filler too close with an ungloved hand and step on the pedal... it bits the P**s out of ya... or a Dynasty does anyway )Me personally... I love it.  Don't have to touch the tungsten to nothing.  Get it close and step on the gas.
Reply:I love HF.  The best invention ever!And it doesn't hurt when you get shocked by it.  btw, what is "P**s"?I love showing people the HF arcing to my finger.  Freaks them out.  As long as you aren't grounded you won't get the full force of the arc, only the HF and it doesn't hurt unless you hold it there for a while and then it starts to get warm.
Reply:Personally, I can't think of any advantage(s) to lift-start other than the fact that you don't have to use the foot pedal.When using lift-start you can start the arc without having to use a remote source and in a tight situation, I can see that being a benefit...as long as you have the settings correct on the machine. Without the remote foot pedal or thumb wheel, you can't vary the amperage when you're welding if the settings are fixed on the panel (at least that's how it works on my Syncrowave 250)...and I don't see that as a benefit at all.  - Paulhttp://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Hard to reach benefits only, IMO, as others have mentioned.  If I'm alone, sometimes I've got no choice but to use it, but I don't like to.  A bunch of my pipe welding buddies use it too when walking the cup out of position.  What I don't like most about it is losing gas coverage when extinguishing the arc.
Reply:Hmm, well I have an on off switch on my torch for "tight spots".  So I see no reason for the lift start at all.  turn it on, hf kicks in, arc initiates, weld starts.  Wham bam thank you ma'am.
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyHmm, well I have an on off switch on my torch for "tight spots".  So I see no reason for the lift start at all.  turn it on, hf kicks in, arc initiates, weld starts.  Wham bam thank you ma'am.
Reply:I have NEEDED lift start when welding in an awkward position.   My ranger 250 has lift start and invertec V350 has "touch" start and both work great.  The arcmaster 185 has a high voltage start that doesn't seem to be hi freq.  Its more like the spark from an auto coil.  Nice big blue sparks that are not continus like hi freq.  The TA185 also has lift start, but I only use it if I have to.Lift start is awesome if all you had before that was scratch start.DavidLast edited by David R; 05-27-2007 at 08:00 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloIf you weld on cars, you may fry computers and radios with HF. Especially you can wreck reception on a radio with HF. And if you are ever welding anything with capacitors, etc. you can goof them up. So that's why you might use lift start. Or, maybe the machine is a stick welder, and you don't want to add the HF box to the machine if you rarely use tig.
Reply:Lift start doesn't require the extra control (pedal or button or...), the issue with interference to radios and electronics, can be real handy in awkward positions or with a long leadset (where you can't get a remote to where you are working ecause it is too far from the source).There are cases where HF is prohibited by a procedure because there is a risk of a discharge in the wrong spot damaging something. You can't always control where the arc will start with HF in a tight spot.
Reply:...'Lift-start' or scratch start is usually done when you don't have the high-freq.....usually on low dollar type machines....in my experience....it's just a very good way to instantly contaminate the tungsten........H-F is the only way to go....unless you have a newer machine that starts the arc with a high voltage pulse....but that only works for D.C........I have a 1952 P&H 400 amp AC/DC TIG machine with H-F....so not all up on the newest stuff....   I thought the whole idea was to never touch the tungsten on the work....Dougspair
Reply:...Oh....this old P&H has switched H-F....continous for AC work on aluminum and magnesium, start only for DC stuff....also has H-F intensity control and 'phase shift' which is for some amount of control where the arc starts on AC work, in relation to the zero crossing every 1/120 th second...usefull on very low curents 5-10 amps and .020" tungsten.....nice for aluminum radiators and auto A/C condensers....Dougspair
Reply:Whoa, lift-start and scratch start are two totally different beasts, at least on my Dynasty.I've done scratch start, and it sucks.  Just the slightest contact of the tungsten, and you've got the full power of the arc going through, before the tungsten even has a chance to be lifted from the surface.  Instant, and major contamination.Lift-start (at least how it works on my Dynasty), is halfway decent.A low voltage is applied to the tungsten, over a low current circuit.You touch the tungsten to the surface, and nothing visible happens, while a small signal current flows through the circuit, getting the machine ready.  The important thing here, is that while the tungsten is in contact with the work, there isn't nearly enough voltage or current to cause contamination.Lift the tungsten, and in that first instant that it leaves the surface full arc current is applied, and your arc, starts on the nearly microscopic arc you get from breaking that control circuit.Its a workable substitute for HF, for when HF is no good, like near electronics, or if you have a pacemaker (but should you really be welding then anyway . . .), or when the neighbors complain of radio interference (or if you're welding while listening to a game on the radio . . .)BTW, the Dynasty (like the arcmaster 185 mentioned above) doesn't have true continuous HF.  Its got a solid state ignition circuit that creates pulses of HF, which stop once the arc is started, so no continuous radio interference, but the potential for damaging electronics is still there.
Reply:This is where the "All in one" machine is usually at a disadvantage. But let's face it, if you were buying an all in one, you were accepting the compromise to begin with.I got the Power Mig 350MP with the intention of Aluminum as it's primary use. It has DC Tig with Lift start. Not my preferred method....and I have not tried it out yet. But I may try it out because my only other way of TIG is with my Ranger 9 and my HF TIG Module. It works great but not so great at 10pm...you know? I can get away with the quiet hummm of DC TIG from my MIG unit till 2am if I wanted. But this is still a compromise for a dedicated TIG unit like a Precision Tig 375 with all the bells and whistles that I want. But I don't have a big need for TIG. So far I have been able to get by with what I have. It's nice that my buddy has his PT375 sitting there just waiting for me when I need it though!!!!! So, long story short, you need to know what you are buying or you will be sorely disappointed.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:I have lift start on my TA185, never use it.  I have it on my XMT and I don't like it one bit.  I'd rather scratch start it, so that is what I do.David, the manual for my TA specificaly calls the HF start High Frequency.  There is also a high frequency warning about it.   What is it really?  Who knows... but Thermal Arc calls it High Frequency.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Our automated TIG systems at work use lift arc because the systems are computer controlled and HF can cause problems with these control systems.  The torch is mounted to a motor driven slide axis which drives the torch tungsten to the part surface where it senses contact through the short circuit in a small applied voltage, it then retracts the torch a starts the arc as you would by hand.My manual system at the house is lift arc, no HF.  A disadvantage of not having HF is that you cannot do a super hot and fast spot weld.  With HF, you can hammer the foot pedal in a quick ON-OFF an get a nice little spot weld, whereas with lift arc, you have to estabilsh and arc, and then hammer the foot pedal to do this.  For a super delicate/thin weldment, the HF spot weld technique is awesoom.
Reply:My Ranger 250 and V350 both have lift start or "Touch" start which works fine.  One part of the trick is leave the tungsten on there so it can heat up and get good gas coverage before pulling it away.  This makes it start much easier.  Once I got the hang of it, I can just tap the workpiece with the electrode and away it goes every time.  I have used the V350 for days on small production tig jobs.YES DesertRider, the TA-185 did turn on my computer in my shop one day last week.  I was surprised, but knew what caused it.  Its not HF like the older machines I have used and will draw a spark for INCHES where the HF will only go about 1/4 to 3/8".  I still think its some kind of capacitor discharge spark on the TA.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Interesting I will have to try a machine with touch start. I would not buy one that did not have both touch and HF. I have heard people say that HF can screw up electronics but I am not so sure about that. I have welded for 40 plus years and never took anymore precaution OTHER than to keep the ground between the weld and electronics. Maybe its just luck but I have never screwed up any. Welded on cars, motorcycles and snowmobiles. I have even welded on a broken metal frame with routers, switches, and a server at work. I kept the ground about a inch away from the weld. No problems ever other than communication interference like TV and telephone, that was a machine ground problem.
Reply:I have tig welded plenty of stainless pipe in the past. All with scratch start and lift start. I love lift start tig welding stainless. HF was never used where I worked. It was not practical to use it and the welding machines with HF cost much more to buy.X-ray quality tig welds are done on a daily basis with scratch start and lift start tig. In the right hands of course.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Lift arc isn't hard at all.Just prop the cup, rock down, rock back up.Really smooth....IMO anyway.It ain't as bad as you think.~JohnJust a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBoyI love HF.  The best invention ever!And it doesn't hurt when you get shocked by it.  btw, what is "P**s"?I love showing people the HF arcing to my finger.  Freaks them out.  As long as you aren't grounded you won't get the full force of the arc, only the HF and it doesn't hurt unless you hold it there for a while and then it starts to get warm.