Stainless TIG problem

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I am trying to weld .035” stainless of unknown type. My guess is 316 but that is just a guess. I am using a negative TIG torch with argon TIG mix. My torch is set up with 1/16” ceriated rod with a gas lens. I have tried from ten to fifty amps and as many in between as I could. I am using ER-309L filler rod. I go from not being able to melt the parent metal to burning holes in it with out getting a good flow any where along the way. The filler rod melts easily and just sits as a bead on the parent metal until the parent melts through. Any suggestions?Last edited by toolmanx; 04-26-2014 at 04:13 PM.Reason: Saw a mispelling.
Reply:You sure you have it in DCEN?Argon Tig mix, that is straight argon? What is your cup size and flow rate?Did you point your ceriated tungsten?Last edited by shovelon; 04-26-2014 at 04:24 PM.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:What size filler are you using?  Try 25-30 amps and keep a tight arc, sounds like arc length might be your problem.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:"You sure you have it in DCEN?" Absoluely"Argon Tig mix, that is straight argon? What is your cup size and flow rate?" I told my gas supplier what I was doing and he gave me the gas he felt was right. I didn't ask but it probably is pure argon. I traded in an argon/CO2 mix for the TIG mix.I'm using the cup recommended for the 1/16" rod. I believe it was an 8 but I'd have to go out to the shop to verify that. The one item I don't have is a flow meter. The regulator that came on the TIG sucks. I may have to get a flow meter. "Did you point your ceriated tungsten?"  Yes and I re-ground it every time it got a ball on it which was pretty often. toolmanx
Reply:Got a ball on it? Unless you dunked it in a molten pool you are on DCEP.Check the label on your tank too - make sure it is not a mix. 100% argon is what it needs to say.Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 04-26-2014 at 07:13 PM.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveGot a ball on it? Unless you dunked it in a molten pool you are on DCEP.Check the label on your tank too - make sure it is not a mix. 100% argon is what it needs to say.
Reply:Tig mix raises a flag for me. Generally, Tig gas is never a mix. It is 100% argon.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:If your tungsten is balling you're on DCEP or direct current electrode positive. Your tungesten is the electrode and needs to be in DCEN. I wouldn't worry about the gas for now. Change polarity.1973 Lincoln SA 200, Already replaced shunt coils, Idle board (SOLD)1984 Miller Dialarc 250HF, Miller water cooler, 250 AMP water cooled torch, you know the worx.
Reply:Why are you using 309...  That's usually Stainless to Steel308 wire sounds better...  or 316.Gotta Fly.....100% argonSometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way down...
Reply:I would get some 308 wire or 316.  But not 309.
Reply:Make sure you have 100% argon, your polarity set right and are shielding the backside, also make sure that you aren't set on 4T or stick mode or something. If you don't know what the metal is, is it possible that it could be an aluminum alloy? Just trying to explore all the possibilities.Thermal Arc 211iThermal Arc 201iThermal Arc 95SEverlast 200DXEverlast Powerplasma 50Victor OAVictor portatorch
Reply:I used the words TIG mix generically, don't make too much of that. There are TIG mixes, some with helium around. I trusted the guy at the gas place to get it right and he did. The bill says argon. If I have the polarity wrong, my meter must be out of whack. I checked the voltage with my multimeter for the polarity. I'll give it another look but I set it up for DCEN. When you talk about back coverage of argon, that is more difficult. Hooking up a separate line to feed argon to the rear of the weld is great but not very easy. I let the guy at the gas place sell me what he thought was the best feed rod. Maybe that was all he had. I told him I was going to try thin stainless TIG welding. I'll re-check the polarity one more time and try to get as close to the parent metal as possible. I have an arc starter and that makes it too easy to make long arcs. I'll stick the rod more but I'll keep trying.
Reply:If that is the case that you do indeed have it setup for DCEN and have 100% argon, then it's just a matter of practicing for the most part to get the heat control down.  If you are using a foot pedal, you need to carefully modulate the heat input.  You should have no problem getting 0.035" material to puddle rather quickly---if so, then there is something wrong. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Originally Posted by toolmanxI used the words TIG mix generically, don't make too much of that. There are TIG mixes, some with helium around. I trusted the guy at the gas place to get it right and he did. The bill says argon. If I have the polarity wrong, my meter must be out of whack. I checked the voltage with my multimeter for the polarity. I'll give it another look but I set it up for DCEN. When you talk about back coverage of argon, that is more difficult. Hooking up a separate line to feed argon to the rear of the weld is great but not very easy. I let the guy at the gas place sell me what he thought was the best feed rod. Maybe that was all he had. I told him I was going to try thin stainless TIG welding. I'll re-check the polarity one more time and try to get as close to the parent metal as possible. I have an arc starter and that makes it too easy to make long arcs. I'll stick the rod more but I'll keep trying.
Reply:Originally Posted by planecrazzzy308 wire sounds better...  or 316
Reply:Here is what I found in my last tests. First I verified the polarity. It is positive on the ground line and negative on the torch. I reversed my meter leads and the needle pinned backward. The torch is negative. Next I ground the tip of the tungsten as sharp as I could make it and set the current at 25 amps. I was able to pull a glob of previously laid filler that stuck, down to the parent metal by putting the arc on the parent and as it heated, also hitting the glob with the arc. You might say the first successful weld. I then tried the same thing with a filler rod and as soon as the filler hit the parent puddle, the 1/16" filler melted but the parent burned through. I have a feeling my filler is too big. My gas guy gave me the smallest rod he carries. I do have .035" 316 safety wire. I didn't try that though. Is there any filler smaller than 1/16"?
Reply:Oh, I forgot to answer the last guys questions."If you give us more info it is easier to find out what is wrong. What kind of machine do you have? What size filler do you have? Can you form a puddle without the filler?Pictures help allot when diagnosing problems. Show us what the steel looks like after you try to weld on it. Show us the tungsten in the torch after you use it."I have a Simadre Chinese TIG welder. I'd be ashamed for anyone to see the various globs I've made on the parent metal. I think I answered the rest.
Reply:Originally Posted by toolmanxI'd be ashamed for anyone to see the various globs I've made on the parent metal.
Reply:Sorry to hurt your feelings Oscar. I just didn't think seeing some ugly weld globs would be very informative. Maybe I should let you guys know what I am doing. I've been oxy welding on my own projects since about 1955. I've had a tomb stone, it seems like forever, and a Lincoln 140 with MIG for about 12 years. This is my first TIG work. All my welding I do for myself only. I'm a retired engineer.My final goal is to weld thin aluminum. Me and a guy from Canada have co-designed an item I have called the pulse box. The circuit oscillates a square wave at 200 cps. It takes the output of the TIG board, which is the input to our box, and changes the output polarity to the torch connection posts by 200 cps. It works but I am having one remaining problem. It will handle voltage from the welder board up to 60 volts then starts to collapse the square wave. My welder puts out 64 volts at idle.(The worst case scenario). I need 75 volts to be well away from problems. I have built the only prototype so far but my co-designer has ordered the parts and will build one to see if his does the same thing. I have ordered new and hopefully better MOSFETS to see if that cures the problem. Incidentally the 200 cps is variable and I can change the amount of positive percentage to negative percentage from the front panel. If we ever get it perfected we will post the circuit design so anyone can build one that wants to try it. In the mean time I need to learn how to weld with this Simadre.
Reply:It's much easier to learn the basics on thicker material and work your way progressively thinner.Have you perfected your technique on thicker material already - like 1/8" or so?Your control box sounds interesting - good luck with it Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by toolmanx I just didn't think seeing some ugly weld globs would be very informative.
Reply:Originally Posted by toolmanxHere is what I found in my last tests. First I verified the polarity. It is positive on the ground line and negative on the torch. I reversed my meter leads and the needle pinned backward. The torch is negative. Next I ground the tip of the tungsten as sharp as I could make it and set the current at 25 amps. I was able to pull a glob of previously laid filler that stuck, down to the parent metal by putting the arc on the parent and as it heated, also hitting the glob with the arc. You might say the first successful weld. I then tried the same thing with a filler rod and as soon as the filler hit the parent puddle, the 1/16" filler melted but the parent burned through. I have a feeling my filler is too big. My gas guy gave me the smallest rod he carries. I do have .035" 316 safety wire. I didn't try that though. Is there any filler smaller than 1/16"?
Reply:Thanks Squimypug. I assume by laywire you mean lay the filler along the path of the weld so there is always some filler under the arc. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Also, are you indicating that I still use the 1/16" filler or go smaller? If, as I thought, the 1/16" is too big, I could try my .035" SS safety wire by laying it over the weld path. Although it would hold up the project while I wait for delivery on smaller filler rod, I can do that too if that is a good idea. What do you recommend?
Reply:Yes, you can leave the filler in the puddle and just wash over it with the torch. You need to really watch the toes of the puddle to make sure it all ties in well. Smaller wire will be easier to use, but if you HAVE to use the 1/16" that is one way of doing it.Form a puddle, then put the filler into it. Push down on the filler just a little so that it doesn't burn back (don't push more filler into the joint- just push down to hold the wire to the steel.) Move forward as the puddle spreads and the toes of the weld fuse with the base metal. Because the wire is a little bigger than "normal" for welding .035" it will need a little higher amperage. Anywhere from 25-35 amps should get you started. Hit full amperage as soon as you start and get moving so you don't overheat the steel.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by toolmanxThanks Squimypug. I assume by laywire you mean lay the filler along the path of the weld so there is always some filler under the arc. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Also, are you indicating that I still use the 1/16" filler or go smaller? If, as I thought, the 1/16" is too big, I could try my .035" SS safety wire by laying it over the weld path. Although it would hold up the project while I wait for delivery on smaller filler rod, I can do that too if that is a good idea. What do you recommend?Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveKeep in mind Squirmy likely doesn't mean to lay the wire down, let go, and wash over it.Lay wire means to keep the wire tip in the puddle instead of dabbing in and out. You maintain control of the wire - at least that's what it means when I say it anyway.Squirmy feel free to correct me if I misread you.Also, I just saw a Jody video where he said to make a puddle and get moving in about 1 second on stainless.
Reply:Originally Posted by toolmanxI used the words TIG mix generically, don't make too much of that. There are TIG mixes, some with helium around. I trusted the guy at the gas place to get it right and he did. The bill says argon. If I have the polarity wrong, my meter must be out of whack. I checked the voltage with my multimeter for the polarity. I'll give it another look but I set it up for DCEN. When you talk about back coverage of argon, that is more difficult. Hooking up a separate line to feed argon to the rear of the weld is great but not very easy. I let the guy at the gas place sell me what he thought was the best feed rod. Maybe that was all he had. I told him I was going to try thin stainless TIG welding. I'll re-check the polarity one more time and try to get as close to the parent metal as possible. I have an arc starter and that makes it too easy to make long arcs. I'll stick the rod more but I'll keep trying.
Reply:you may have a mix...  but how long has it been sitting...some mixes need rolling after a while...yeah, sounded funny the first time I heard it too.....Gotta Fly.....PS  When in Doubt...  308..Sometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way down...
Reply:Get on weldingtipsandtricks.com and watch Jody's tig videos. They have helped me tremendously.
Reply:Originally Posted by toolmanxSorry to hurt your feelings Oscar. I just didn't think seeing some ugly weld globs would be very informative. Maybe I should let you guys know what I am doing. I've been oxy welding on my own projects since about 1955. I've had a tomb stone, it seems like forever, and a Lincoln 140 with MIG for about 12 years. This is my first TIG work. All my welding I do for myself only. I'm a retired engineer.My final goal is to weld thin aluminum. Me and a guy from Canada have co-designed an item I have called the pulse box. The circuit oscillates a square wave at 200 cps. It takes the output of the TIG board, which is the input to our box, and changes the output polarity to the torch connection posts by 200 cps. It works but I am having one remaining problem. It will handle voltage from the welder board up to 60 volts then starts to collapse the square wave. My welder puts out 64 volts at idle.(The worst case scenario). I need 75 volts to be well away from problems. I have built the only prototype so far but my co-designer has ordered the parts and will build one to see if his does the same thing. I have ordered new and hopefully better MOSFETS to see if that cures the problem. Incidentally the 200 cps is variable and I can change the amount of positive percentage to negative percentage from the front panel. If we ever get it perfected we will post the circuit design so anyone can build one that wants to try it. In the mean time I need to learn how to weld with this Simadre.
Reply:The parts finally got here. I get back on and let you know how that works out. Thanks for all the help.
Reply:Originally Posted by toolmanxThe parts finally got here. I get back on and let you know how that works out. Thanks for all the help.
Reply:I order tig rod for tool steels down to .020. Micro tiggers use even smaller rod. I'm sure you can get stainless tig rod down to .020 and smaller.http://www.facebook.com/LockhartMetalArthttp://www.facebook.com/pages/Grumpy...44306259043484
Reply:Problem with smaller rod...  it balls up on you...You can get into a good small bead...  But if your rod isn't close to being buried...Tink...  Big ball at the end.... and a Glob in yer weld.....Just my two cents.....and welding rods ain't "Parts"....  Hmmmm   Ordered ???Welding supply stores are everywhere.....Gotta Fly.....Sometimes you just have to take the leap and build your wings on the way down...
Reply:Originally Posted by grumpycricketI order tig rod for tool steels down to .020. Micro tiggers use even smaller rod. I'm sure you can get stainless tig rod down to .020 and smaller.
Reply:After "not being able to melt the parent metal" and "burning holes in it" -- much like described in the opening lines in this thread, I have photographic evidence of how I achieved it!I am attempting to weld 1/2 NPT couplings on 3/64" (0.047" is that 18ga?). I have no clue as to the 3/64" SS composition. The fitting is 304. The 1/16 filler rod is ER308L. Electrode is 1/16 1.5% Lanthanated. HF start welder was DCEN and I had it set as high as 110 AMPs on an aircooled torch with a 9 cup (at least I think it was a 9; I don't feel like going to the garage another time!). Pure argon was at 40CFH (at least I think I had it at 40CFH; recent research tells me that is about 2x what it should have been).I should add that I've welded the fittings as described above before and often with good results. What changed? I started using a dual flowmeter so I could purge the backside. The old single flowmeter was metric and I can't find my notes on the previously used argon flow.If my descriptions are too flighty, I'll set the stuff up again and be a bit more precise.
Reply:Now it's pretty easy to tell that you have poor arc/heat control, just like me   You are letting the arc melt the filler off the end of the rod, hence why it just balls up and falls down, instead of being wicked into a molten weld puddle.  You really need to pinpoint the arc right into the joint to get it to melt and then feed the puddle with filler, literally.  If you can't get the rod to the puddle without it balling up on you, then you have the wrong torch angle/arc length.Look at the videos from weldingtipsandtricks on Youtube until you run into one showing a weld joint like yours so you can get an idea of what needs to take place. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:100-120 amps, 1-2mm (around 1/16) arc lenght and 1,2mm filler (.045).Also it can be easier to weld with 3/32 tungsten. That's what I would use. Looks like you have long arc lengt and you're not melting the material. Also why so big cup... ...take #5 or #6 cup and set regulator to 6-7lpm (12-14cfh). Too much argon is just as bad as not enought (especialy  with alu).Last edited by ravselj; 05-19-2014 at 03:17 PM.
Reply:So, I followed the suggestions ("pinpoint the arc right into the joint," "100-120 amps," "1-2mm (around 1/16) arc length," "3/32 tungsten", "#5 or #6 cup," "12-14cfh") and guess what  happened:Thanks! Now, I need to figure out why I was "long arcing" (well, and some of the other violations) it in the first place. Plus, with a "few" more hours of practice, some/most of the remaining grossness will go away.
Reply:Coming from MIG work, I was going with generally a bit more electrode stickout than I should have, and would tend to hold a longer arc at more angle as well (basically all wrong, and it showed... hah). Keep the arc tight, and don't run more electrode stickout than you need to, especially if you don't have a gas lens on stainless. I'd also say stainless needs slightly less amps than mild steel (I'd probably say 80-100 amps on that joint) and you need to get the puddle formed and get going fast, kind of like aluminum in that respect. Mild steel is more forgiving for futzing around with getting the puddle going. I have been burning some rods and watching some older videos of Jody's that I've seen before, and only now is some of what he says starting to click.Thermal Arc 186 AC/DCHobart Handler 125
Reply:Hello toolmanx, you said that you had a stainless of an unknown type. That being said, there are materials out there that "look" like stainless steel, are also non-magnetic, and will not be weldable with stainless fillers, Hastelloy is one of these. Can you make a puddle and get it to make a "bead" without adding filler? If you verify that you can do this and then when you attempt to add the filler you experience the same results that you first described you may very well not have "stainless" material. Pictures might help as well if you can provide some, also a history of where you got the material from. Good luck and best regards, Allanaevald