Tig question for beginner

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Hey, I am new to the forum and new to tig welding. I just bought a new tig welder and have been practicing.  I just have a question when I do a fusion weld with aluminum wether it be a lap joint or a T or a corner. When the aluminum starts to puddle it will sometimes flow away from each other rather that towards each other to fuse. Is there  trick to get them to flow together or a certain way? Thank you
Reply:I've read its better to add just a tiny dab of filler instead of trying to do a fusion tack.  Use a thin filler rod and as soon as you see the aluminum turn shiny and before it curls back into itself, dab in the filler to complete the tack. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Tacking using fusion only I find is a mater of putting the machine on what Zapster calls kill. Tack only where the pieces fit tight together. Hit it hard with the foot pedal. If it takes longer than a second to fuse it will keyhole! Option two is turn max amp to 130% of material thickness in thousandths. 1/16" 16 gauge or .062... 62 x 1.30=80.6 amps. Use part pedal up to full, I think Minnesota Dave suggested a 3 second puddle time. I heat each side of the joint keeping the arc just off the gap until wet starts to appear. Use a .035 Wire (MIG), straighten it with a drill. Add a tiny bit of filler to each side of the joint, then between. Don't center the arc over the joint until a bridge forms. Never dab wire into the arc. Let the puddle do the melting. Some skilled people bring filler from the side or rear to avoid a nasty ball forming on the wire. I do all my tacks, if an outside corner joint, then sand them flush with 4" paint stripper disc. Backstep when filling in the long joint. Having other work to do let it cool rather than doing a long bead all at once. Always start a bead on a tack weld to avoid a keyhole.Last edited by Willie B; 06-09-2014 at 10:10 PM.
Reply:For fusion tacks on aluminum I like to set the machine hotter than welding current, pre-heat/clean with minimal amps until the metal shines up a bit, then stomp and release the pedal. If the fit was close, the metal was clean enough and the amps where high enough, you have a tack. I'd say 3-4 sec preheat, 1 second blast. Then get use some undersize filler for the rest of your tacks, now that you have two hands, because Alu fusion sucks.SqWave 200Millermatic 190Airco 200 ACHypertherm PM45Boice-Crane Band SawVictor O/A
Reply:Fusion tacks are critical that perfect balance between the two sides of the joint exists. If one side isn't liquid, no bridge will form.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BTacking using fusion only I find is a mater of putting the machine on what Zapster calls kill. Tack only where the pieces fit tight together. Hit it hard with the foot pedal. If it takes longer than a second to fuse it will keyhole! Option two is turn max amp to 130% of material thickness in thousandths. 1/16" 16 gauge or .062... 62 x 1.30=80.6 amps. Use part pedal up to full, I think Minnesota Dave suggested a 3 second puddle time. I heat each side of the joint keeping the arc just off the gap until wet starts to appear. Use a .035 Wire (MIG), straighten it with a drill. Add a tiny bit of filler to each side of the joint, then between. Don't center the arc over the joint until a bridge forms. Never dab wire into the arc. Let the puddle do the melting. Some skilled people bring filler from the side or rear to avoid a nasty ball forming on the wire. I do all my tacks, if an outside corner joint, then sand them flush with 4" paint stripper disc. Backstep when filling in the long joint. Having other work to do let it cool rather than doing a long bead all at once. Always start a bead on a tack weld to avoid a keyhole.
Reply:Wow, thanks everyone. I didn't know if it was just me doing something wrong or if it was a skill I had to learn but I am glad I asked
Reply:Also when doing the split-second super-atomic high-heat tack method (LOL), the higher you can raise the AC frequency, the less amps you can get away with since it will pin-point the arc much better at the joint.  Same goes with AC balance---the less EP you use (by way of cleaning the base metals really really well), the more focused the arc will be, and the smaller the spot tack ends up being. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarAlso when doing the split-second super-atomic high-heat tack method (LOL), the higher you can raise the AC frequency, the less amps you can get away with since it will pin-point the arc much better at the joint.  Same goes with AC balance---the less EP you use (by way of cleaning the base metals really really well), the more focused the arc will be, and the smaller the spot tack ends up being.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveSSSAHH tack method using adjustable frequency AND adjustable balance??What's the deal...being lazy or something?
Reply:Duramarks,  remember alum is one of those materials that always requires filler. "Fusion" tacks are one thing, however alum with no filler often hot cracks meaning the tacks may not hold. One of the points of tacking with no filler is that when you run the actual bead, you don't have the "excess" filler of the tacks to deal with, either by thinning the tacks in advance, or having to change up your dab pattern every time you hit the tack so you maintain a consistent fill.I see a lot of new guys who think they are the shiz because they can make "pretty" beads on alum with no filler. However alum is very heat sensitive and the majority of alum alloys have very little strength once heated to welding temps when the puddle forms. ( actually some alum alloys go dead soft at temps as low as 300 deg F, so you don't even have to form a puddle to anneal the alum and seriously weaken it.) The addition of filler helps deal with that problem..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveSSSAHH tack method using adjustable frequency AND adjustable balance??What's the deal...being lazy or something?
Reply:Oscar, nice examples of the advantages of adjustable hertz using an AC inverter tig..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BDo I not see an Invertec & a Maxstar in your list? Have you moved out of 1960?
Reply:I have very little success with Aluminum tacks unless I add some motion to the arc.  The arc force will push the puddle over to the other piece.  I kinda go back and forth really quickly and the metal needs to be super clean.  Move until the puddles connect. I've never had any luck with a super fast blast of high amperage that's in a fixed position on aluminum, at any balance or AC Hz.
Reply:Autogenous tacking is a challenge on aluminum. If the parts are not critical, I usually just get a small shiny spot on both pieces and then gag the tungsten slightly to get the two separate puddles to jump the gap. If you do it properly (gagging the tungsten is never really proper) you will hardly contaminate the puddle or tungsten.  When it comes to the actual fusion weld with filler metal, you'll want to clean that nasty tungsten.Two turn tables and a microphone.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveYeah sort of moved to the dark side. Maxstar is inverter but stick only. Invertec is basic stick/tig but does have hot start like my '63 Airco, also has arc force control which allows it to stick weld almost as good as the Airco.  lol
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BI believe the term is sold out. Until now you've been an inspiration!
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255I have very little success with Aluminum tacks unless I add some motion to the arc.  The arc force will push the puddle over to the other piece.  I kinda go back and forth really quickly and the metal needs to be super clean.  Move until the puddles connect. I've never had any luck with a super fast blast of high amperage that's in a fixed position on aluminum, at any balance or AC Hz.
Reply:Dave,You didn't have to mention they are really expensive, I've been there and done that! I haven't used your Airco. I have used a Dialarc 250HF. They can't be compared except in the sense you can compare a plumb to a pig. Sine wave 50/50 balance is so fussy about cleanliness. My old Linde TIG book explains that any contamination at all resists the flow of electricity. As current falls to zero at the initiation of the EP half of the cycle the arc must establish ionization and build to give any cleaning action. This limits cleaning. Another phenomenon is that an ionization supported arc starts easily from a pointed object. As the workpiece is rarely pointed, it isn't as easy to establish, or as predictable where it will start from. This can give a wider arc than you want.Will it last fifty years? ask me fifty years from now, probably not.
Reply:I've been told the same about cleanliness, but it seems that old beast just welds aluminum right through mild futz As far as expense, fortunately the inverters I've tried we're super cheap used models as I'm not sure I'd be very happy if I paid full price new for them in comparison.I should plug my Dialarc into my HF box and see how it does - no foot control but maybe it's just as smooth?EDIT:  sorry duramarks - I get distracted Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 06-11-2014 at 10:29 PM.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:This is the technique I arrived at also. Like one little small zigzag in a second of weld current.I have to say Oscar's tacks are way bigger than what I have been using; I don't want to break the corners down that much on what I am welding just now, which is the same thickness and same type of joint. I set the current at twice the weld current and blast it for about a second or less with the pedal. But I am going to try the tack settings on the Dynasty and try Pangea's method.
Reply:Originally Posted by atgThis is the technique I arrived at also. Like one little small zigzag in a second of weld current.I have to say Oscar's tacks are way bigger than what I have been using; I don't want to break the corners down that much on what I am welding just now, which is the same thickness and same type of joint. I set the current at twice the weld current and blast it for about a second or less with the pedal. But I am going to try the tack settings on the Dynasty and try Pangea's method.
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarReally?  I thought they were not too big especially the ones with the machine set at 200Hz.  I used the quickest blast that I could manage with the foot pedal, and not the spot-tack feature of my machine, but of course I don't do this often, meaning at all, lol.  Can I see pics of your tacks on 1/16" alum that you have already manually done so we can get a reference as to what a small tack looks like?  Also if you could reveal what AC settings you used would be great.For reference here is another perspective :
Reply:haha, they're not dips, they're individual tacks made specifically for discussion of aluminum tacking. They're the same ones from the pictures in my previous post   1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SCOriginally Posted by atgThis is the technique I arrived at also. Like one little small zigzag in a second of weld current.I have to say Oscar's tacks are way bigger than what I have been using; I don't want to break the corners down that much on what I am welding just now, which is the same thickness and same type of joint. I set the current at twice the weld current and blast it for about a second or less with the pedal. But I am going to try the tack settings on the Dynasty and try Pangea's method.
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarReally?  I thought they were not too big especially the ones with the machine set at 200Hz.  I used the quickest blast that I could manage with the foot pedal, and not the spot-tack feature of my machine, but of course I don't do this often, meaning at all, lol.  Can I see pics of your tacks on 1/16" alum that you have already manually done so we can get a reference as to what a small tack looks like?  Also if you could reveal what AC settings you used would be great.For reference here is another perspective :
Reply:Here's what I speed tacked tonight - just for demonstration purposes.1/16" aluminum, 3/32 thoriated, 230 amps AC on the '63 Airco (I like listing the year) I turned the switch to "local" and left the contactor switch on so the pedal is only an on/off switch at full amps.About 3/4 second blast did the job Almost zero cleaning band showing.Basically flat tacksA standard tack with the pedal and 1/16" filler rod.Notice the wide cleaning band compared to my speed tack.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:nice tacks.    Pretty much similar in size to my tacks.  Hard to not melt off the corners on such thin material I say.Don't make me use the spot-tack feature on my machine!  1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Originally Posted by Oscarnice tacks.    Pretty much similar in size to my tacks.  Hard to not melt off the corners on such thin material I say.Don't make me use the spot-tack feature on my machine!
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveYep, as I understand the process the corners have to roll into the void to become the weld metal for the tacks.Your machine has a spot-tack feature??!?  Grumble...grumble...world ending....computerized crap taking over the world...muttering to myself...face palm....
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarReally?  I thought they were not too big especially the ones with the machine set at 200Hz.  I used the quickest blast that I could manage with the foot pedal, and not the spot-tack feature of my machine, but of course I don't do this often, meaning at all, lol.  Can I see pics of your tacks on 1/16" alum that you have already manually done so we can get a reference as to what a small tack looks like?  Also if you could reveal what AC settings you used would be great.For reference here is another perspective :
Reply:figured I couldn't be that far off   My machine only goes to 200Hz and I was using 80%EN (only goes to 90%EN).  Had I used 90% EN they would likely have been just a hair's thickness smaller.  My tacks were about 4mm wide at 200Hz, and yours appear to be about 3mm wide with your machine settings.    100% EN = DCEN, so yea you'd need Helium. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:That's a lot of technology and settings fiddling to get tacks very close to a 51 year old transformer machine with no adjustments  Did I ever mention old machines rock? Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveThat's a lot of technology and settings fiddling to get tacks very close to a 51 year old transformer machine with no adjustments  Did I ever mention old machines rock?
Reply:Originally Posted by Oscarno fair, you can disable your foot pedal to become an on/off switch, I can't, lol.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveAll that fancy technology and they can't give you a switch? Truthfully I think a torch switch would be the way to go though - be pretty handy.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveThat's a lot of technology and settings fiddling to get tacks very close to a 51 year old transformer machine with no adjustments  Did I ever mention old machines rock?
Reply:Originally Posted by Oscarfigured I couldn't be that far off   My machine only goes to 200Hz and I was using 80%EN (only goes to 90%EN).  Had I used 90% EN they would likely have been just a hair's thickness smaller.  My tacks were about 4mm wide at 200Hz, and yours appear to be about 3mm wide with your machine settings.    100% EN = DCEN, so yea you'd need Helium.
Reply:Originally Posted by atgpics or it didn't happen
Reply:Originally Posted by atgpics or it didn't happen
Reply:Originally Posted by Oscarumm...he did post pictures.Although I do see faint wire brush marks running sideways in his pics.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oscarumm...he did post pictures.Although I do see faint wire brush marks running sideways in his pics.
Reply:Originally Posted by atgYes but I cannot tell the scale without an internal reference.
Reply:I think it is much easier to tack a butt joint without blowing edges than the open corner joint
Reply:Originally Posted by atgI think it is much easier to tack a butt joint without blowing edges than the open corner joint
Reply:They look great. I was speaking more to your point about fancy vs transformer. I am curious to see what you can do on an open corner.
Reply:Originally Posted by atgThey look great. I was speaking more to your point about fancy vs transformer. I am curious to see what you can do on an open corner.
Reply:Originally Posted by atgThey look great. I was speaking more to your point about fancy vs transformer. I am curious to see what you can do on an open corner.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BDefine open corner, an outside corner joint where two flat sheets come together, but gap, or the end of said joint where no third sheet is involved? In either case I can't do it without filler, transformer, or inverter. I find the precision of the pedal control to be much better with Dynasty than Dialarc, Don't get me started on Diversion!