Steel I Beam Weld - Residential Structural Weld

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First I am new to all of this and I am looking for advice. My terminology may not be correct. Well, I am removing 2 lolly columns in my basement and I have a 6 inch steel I beam (1/4 thick). On top of one of the lolly columns there is a seam where the beam was extended. Currently there is a small plate on each side with four bolts. The load that this beam was made to carrying is no longer there. It is now just holding up the floor on the 1st floor. So my question is.. If I weld the seam with one 4 inch x 48 inch x 1/4 on each side will that be strong enough or should I use 3/8 inch steel instead of 1/4? Is welding better than bolting? By the way I am not doing the welding myself. Thank you!Last edited by Ryan007; 12-08-2015 at 10:21 PM.
Reply:I don't understandIf the load is gone why do you need to do anything?Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:The load from the second floor is gone but still need to support the floor on the first floor.
Reply:You will probably regret doing this. At best the floor will get very bouncy. At worst your floor will be in the basement.Beams are designed to span a given distance. If you take out a support column, you generally double that distance. The other thing you do is change where the major center of shear and moment is in that beam. Under a "simple" beam, Moment ( bending) is greatest half way between supports, and shear is greatest at the support. With "complex" beams those values shift location slightly and bending forces transfer from one side of a column to another. Loads directly over a column generally don't count when sizing beams. At best you are taking the weakest point of your "new" beam ( the splice) and putting it under the greatest load ( the middle). Also loads are like levers. 100 lbs per sq ft is minimal if the span is only 6', at 12' it's suddenly equal to almost 3/4's of a ton due to distance.Usually taking out a column requires a deeper beam. In one house I worked in they had to replace an 8" beam with a 16" beam to handle the new span when the owner wanted to take out a basement column.There's a lot more info we'd really need to accomplish what you are doing. In many cases a retrofit like this would need to be signed off by a Structural Engineer to meet code..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:The way I read it, you desire to remove support columns(lolly columns) from the interior span of I beam, where the floor above is then only supported in middle by the beam?If so, and depending on the width of span and predicted load per foot, then it might be possible to simply "box" the beam with long, welded in-place 1/4" plate strips.Picture the Roman Numeral III, where the added welded strips are attached to the left and right side of the original I beam at the outer edges of the beam along it's full length....Such a design is extremely resistant to sag in the middle, plus twisting forces.But even then, as I once proved to my Dad, it's possible to break even and anvil....He screamed, "Boy, you could destroy even that anvil! Get out of my shop!"
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Reply:thanks you for the answers. I am going to try and explain a little better. The beam you see once held up the first floor as well as the second floor. So the beam was designed to hold that load. I have since remove the load bearing wall on the first floor that was supporting the second floor. I add a "header header" that goes from the foundation wall to the new red Lolly column (a total of 16'). Now I want to remove the 2 gray Lolly columns and having the bean unsupported for 16' (but it is now only carrying the load from the first floor floor) I need to splice the seam on the beam (that was my first question) what material should I use? Do you think the newly spliced beam without the two gray columns is strong enough to support the load of the first floor floor only? Attached Images
Reply:Don't remove the posts. 1. Your floor probably won't collapse, but it will be really bouncy and saggy, the sag in the floor will affect all the walls around it, and crack your plaster/drywall, maybe put waves in your flooring. 2. It's not worth the hassle. Just make your basement floor plan incorporate the posts. (e.g. make one of the posts the corner of your bar, and the other where the girls dance)Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:You need a bigger beam.  In wood they use a 8" to span 8 ft, 10" to span 10 ft, etc.  same logic applies for steel.  Your 6" beam isn't big enough.  16 ft unsupported I think at minimum a 12" beam.  A little googling says you need a 12" beam to span 16 ft.
Reply:Repeating what was said earlier...You need to consult with a licensed Structural engineer or architect in your area before touching anything.  The fact that you've displaced the load from the second story to the outer foundation walls isn't relevant.  The floor still supported by the beam , may still require one or more mid-span supports.The bolted-on plates you discuss  are only there to align the two I beams.  The provide zero resistance to deflection under load, for all intents and purposes.  That's why there's a column installed directly underneath that location.Whether or not you can box or reinforce the web of the existing beams, or if you need a new beam that is much taller, is a matter for an expert to advise you on.  What you're asking for is for free advice from a structural engineer who might read this forum, or a guess from anybody else who wants to venture an opinion on your question.  Nobody with any common sense is going to answer your question for fear of what you'll do when/if the first floor in your house sags or falls into the basement.You might get free advice from lumber yard that sells structural beams, on the size and type of beam that you need to span the distance, according to established building codes.  The only other sensible option is to PAY a structural engineer to tell you want you need for a new beam, or how you could safely modify the existing beam. Do whatever seems best, but if I were in your shoes I spend the $200 or so it will cost to get an guaranteed correct answer to your question.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:I too would consult a structural engineer.  But before you do that figure out if you can even get a new beam (at least 16ft, but likely the full span length) into the basement.  If it's impossible don't waste your money on an engineer and stick with exactly what is in place.  Unless you have a walkout, you're likely not getting a new beam of adequate size into the basement...
Reply:Originally Posted by toofast_28I too would consult a structural engineer.  But before you do that figure out if you can even get a new beam (at least 16ft, but likely the full span length) into the basement.  If it's impossible don't waste your money on an engineer and stick with exactly what is in place.  Unless you have a walkout, you're likely not getting a new beam of adequate size into the basement...
Reply:One of the easiest ways to get a beam in a basement is to bust out the back of the pocket and just slide it in.  My guess is you may be able to use a wide flange 8 or 10 inch beam as to which and what weight you will have to decide that or pay that 200 hundred bucks and have piece of mind.  About a days work for a couple two three guys jacking , temp supports and sliding it in.   What you have is made to support about 8 ft welding it don't change that. Boxing it although strong is probaly more expensivee than putting in a new beam.  Good luck hope it's a nice man cave.pLast edited by Phil Snyder; 12-10-2015 at 12:16 AM.
Reply:Step A call a structural engineer  , the splice can be full pen welded and cover plates used to build up the beam to increase the section . web  and flange cover plates can be used and temp shores of 4x4 wood and a hyd jack to install them is easy . A buzz box welder and it could be a good project will be fine with professional advice . Do not burn the house down !
Reply:I work in the structural field. First you really need to consult with an Engineer, as said above. They will let you know exactly what you need to do. Second you need to check with city, borough etc to find out if you need a certified welder, if welding, and if you need a CWI to inspect the fit and weld. If it is a CJP more than likely they will require a CWI to be present while it is welded. If you are bolting it you may also need an inspector. Do your homework first before doing anything, the liability is high and you don't need that on your shoulders. Good Luck!!
Reply:Here is your answer I would use an engineer but if you want to cut corners and do it yourself here is your answerhttp://richmond.ky.us/images/codes/f...el%20beams.pdftrailblazer 302thunderbolt ac dc machine Hobart fluxcoreAHP tig 200x 2015