Which is Hottest - MIG or Stick?

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Someone told me MIG was hotter than stick and I"ve always been able to believe it.  But recently a guy said they're the same - about 6,000 C, both of them - and another guy chimed in and said no, it's the other way around, stick is hotter. I've googled a bit and failed to find a nice clear answer. anyone know?
Reply:The actual weld puddle is probably about the same. That said ,you can move faster with mig so in most cases the overall amount of heat put into a piece will be less than stick welding.  If you weld at 120 amps for 2 minutes or weld at 120 amps for 3 minutes the 2 minute weld will put less heat into the work piece.
Reply:as above, for practical reasons the heat input (amps x volts x process-related factor / travel speed) is much more important than the temperature of the weld pool.If you're interested, I believe I have values for different weld pools, as I have a report that measured several things (penetration was one of the main things) under different polarities, different shielding gases, ... Temp was also recorded if I'm not mistaken
Reply:I can understand that heat input thing.  2 minutes at 120A = 240A/minutes and 3 @ 120 = 360A/minutes and I guess every ampere/minute in contact with the metal translates directly into heat. That raises two questions in my mind: 1.  If the formula is so simple then both would be the same at any particular Amperage, right?  Time x Amps. 2.  You can move faster with MIG - why?  If the same heat is applied at the same Amps then the puddle formation (if that's the right way to talk about it) should be the same?Three questions: 3.  If that's the case how come MIG is so much better for thin metal than turning your stick amps down and doing it with stick? Make it four: 4.  How come I always feel MIG is hotter?  I'm very wary of the heat with MIG. I'm always thinking of it building up, where I don't think like that with the stick.  You say you can move quicker with the MIG I feel I have to move quicker else the heat builds up and I start to burn through  Just my imagination and an artifact of the fact that usually the metal piece is smaller and lighter under the MIG and that sort of thing is to be expected? Would happen with the stick if I tried to do the same job with it?  I'm just kidding myself? If it is not obvious I'll make it clear: I'm very much a very beginner welder - and every time I think I've learned a tad more it just makes me realise a little more what a beginner I am.  So that's where my understanding is at when you try to explain things to me.And, yes, I'd like to have any charts, reports with data on anything to do with welding.  I like that sort of stuff. Even when I don't understand it.
Reply:It occurs to me, only an observation, I can move up in a vertical joint effortlessly with MIG. With stick I must weave more, concentrate on technique, and still have to pause if heat builds up too much. My theory is heat is confined to a smaller volume of steel, therefore freeze is quicker as it conducts to surrounding metal. There is the concern about penetration, or mixing/lack of fusion with MIG. Is this not because technique must be employed to input adequate heat?An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by abrogardI can understand that heat input thing.  2 minutes at 120A = 240A/minutes and 3 @ 120 = 360A/minutes and I guess every ampere/minute in contact with the metal translates directly into heat. That raises two questions in my mind: 1.  If the formula is so simple then both would be the same at any particular Amperage, right?  Time x Amps. 2.  You can move faster with MIG - why?  If the same heat is applied at the same Amps then the puddle formation (if that's the right way to talk about it) should be the same?Three questions: 3.  If that's the case how come MIG is so much better for thin metal than turning your stick amps down and doing it with stick? Make it four: 4.  How come I always feel MIG is hotter?  I'm very wary of the heat with MIG. I'm always thinking of it building up, where I don't think like that with the stick.  You say you can move quicker with the MIG I feel I have to move quicker else the heat builds up and I start to burn through  Just my imagination and an artifact of the fact that usually the metal piece is smaller and lighter under the MIG and that sort of thing is to be expected? Would happen with the stick if I tried to do the same job with it?  I'm just kidding myself? If it is not obvious I'll make it clear: I'm very much a very beginner welder - and every time I think I've learned a tad more it just makes me realize a little more what a beginner I am.  So that's where my understanding is at when you try to explain things to me.And, yes, I'd like to have any charts, reports with data on anything to do with welding.  I like that sort of stuff. Even when I don't understand it.
Reply:In the formula for calculating Heat Input, I do not see a reference to welding process differences.But I'm only a part-timer.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:I don't know amperage, the 252 displays only voltage. I do know a lot more joint can be welded in a given time with MIG.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Originally Posted by abrogardSomeone told me MIG was hotter than stick and I"ve always been able to believe it.  But recently a guy said they're the same - about 6,000 C, both of them - and another guy chimed in and said no, it's the other way around, stick is hotter. I've googled a bit and failed to find a nice clear answer. anyone know?
Reply:A lot of people equate penetration to heat, they think that something with more penetration is inherently hotter. This isn't really the case as there are a lot of variables that come into play for penetration like arc voltage, shielding, how focused the arc is and a lot of others that are above my pay grade.
Reply:you never tried hot rodding 6010 in a air arc gun ?.5/32 6010 at over 200 amps and compressed air from airarc holder. will blast away and cut through maybe up to 1/4" stainless. why not use a plasma?? with the right metal thickness it makes smoke but just will blast through the metal and gap distance and angle not critical and reaching into tight spots. hard to describe but i have had air arc and plasma on the job and rather than use carbons in air arc used 6010 and paint, dirt, etc you do not snap off 6010 like carbon electrodes, nothing to blasted back and damage plasma torch..6010 with long arc can vaporize paint and not deposit metal, wire brush off paint and then weld it, hard to describe and not recommended for cleaning metal but it is done everyday
Reply:it is like tig welding when puddle too hot you can add filler rod to cool it down. mig welding heat is absorbed by melting wire filler metal. with stick rod that has iron powder in rod flux the heat is absorbed by iron powder melting but welding is faster.6010 has the least iron powder in flux and thus strongest arc strength. other rods like 6013 and 7018 do not have as strong a arc action. 6010 has paper in flux that vaporizes into plasma gas. mineral flux like 7018 does not form as strong as a plasma gas cause it has minerals not paper vaporizing. 6010 flux has some minerals but not much mostly paper in flux (cellulose).when hot rodding air arc cutting with 6010 rod some welders soak rod in water so get jet action of steam and flux vaporizing
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveIn the formula for calculating Heat Input, I do not see a reference to welding process differences.But I'm only a part-timer.
Reply:never used formula. dc reverse with stick arc goes to stick and reaction sprays arc back with force depending on flux and arc reaction force you can literally see it pushing or penetrating metal or blasting weld puddle around. with 6010 or 6011 using varying arc length or whipping ahead and then back or triangle weave you can dissolve tacks or penetrate through or fill gaps by arc manipulation.dc reverse with tig and arc hits tungsten thus why amp capacity is limited. dc straight arc hits part so heat hitting part and some arc power determined by shielding gas for example helium gives more penetration than argon. arc ionizing or arc reaction power effects by shielding gas used.dc reverse with tig (or ac mix) more dc reverse as electrons leave part they go through and break up oxide layer thus cleaning action with aluminum by heat going to tungsten. ac you get mix of cleaning action arc going through oxide layer to tungsten and then arc going to part..i dont know formulas i only know what i can see. obviously 200 amp tig has more penetrating power than 100 amp. similar oxy acetylene torch tip. rosebud with multiple holes is not hotter temp but more btu form more gas at same spot so it heats metal faster cause of metal cannot absorb heat fast enough. if welding tip with one big hole you can oxy acetylene 3/4" thick steel. temp not higher but more heat so can melt metal faster. single gas hole flame action is more powerful and can push puddle around if not careful and of course put out so much heat as to raise room temp 30 degrees fairly fast.just saying temp can be same but arc force or flame force or speed to form molten puddle and or ability to push molten puddle around is what most mean by which is hotterLast edited by WNY_TomB; 12-12-2015 at 09:23 AM.
Reply:I figure that the OP is asking mostly out of curiosity, but here's the bottom line...I feel that figuring out which process is hotter is a moot point. Each process is VERY CAPABLE if done correctly. The answer is very subjective, too. There really is no correct answer.So, it doesn't matter which one is hotter. It's like...if the speed limit on the highway is 70 MPH, and you have a Smart Car, or a Lamborghini, they will both get you to the speed limit, and then some. It just depends on how much gas you give it, much like how much voltage and amperage you set a welding machine at.  So...both cars, like both welding processes will get the job done.Rich
Reply:Originally Posted by kingneroHere is the european formula.You'll understand that during GTAW (TIG) welding you are losing a lot more heat due to its open arc, than sub-arc where everything is covered under the flux...
Reply:i had a job welding 3/4 studs in 3/4 holes holding a 6x6x1/2 steel angle that had rubber washers over 3/4 studs designed to be a fork truck bumper and engineer drawing say 1/8 weld penetration.had some break free and you could see 1/8" weld penetration but obviously counting on more penetration even with stick welding is not reliable. easiest to countersink holes and guarantee weld penetration over 3/8 or more.there are pictures that show weld puddle shape that is depth to width with various weld processes. do not think it is temperature but a arc force thing. similar to oxy acetylene flame with gas on high you literally have a more powerful flame action pushing weld puddle around as oppose to rosebud tip with more holes and less powerful flame action so "wider" heat profile.i am guessing hotter welding process talking more about a higher weld depth to width profile thing. MIG is usually not a high weld depth to width profile usually low depth to high width profile
Reply:Weld a joint with each, and then zap them with a touchless thermometer. If you want a larger sample size, weld more joints.All that math gives me a freaking headache.Currently working as a Paralegal, but still interested in hobby welding.Miller Bobcat 225ntOne- Character Fractions: ¼ ½ ¾ ⅛ ⅜ ⅝ ⅞
Reply:Yep, I'm asking mostly out of curiosity.Really I don't even know what I mean.  I just heard or read somewhere that MIG was hotter than stick.I accepted it as true without thinking about what it really meant.  And I still don't know what it really means.The other day I was talking to a guy and I repeated it to him: MIG is hotter than stick.  He was a bit surprised. I reaffirmed it, god knows why. Yes, it is, I said.  Still without knowing what I was really talking about.Then afterwards I thought I would check.  Hence this question, this thread.And the result:  I still don't know what I'm talking about!I see that MinnesotaDave's chart shows the thermal efficiency for MIG as being the same as for stick.  And the current could easily be the same - or is there a point there?  Would you weld with a higher current for a given thickness of metal with MIG than you would with stick?If that's true then there'd be a difference.  But I don't know that it is.  I can try that for myself.  Roughly.  Neither my MIG nor my stick welder have accurate finely graded Amp scales.  One has a sliding pointer (the stick) and the other has a four position switch.But I think I might have to tell him I was wrong.  Or at least confess I don't know what I'm talking about.To my mind it vaguely meant that welding with MIG would mean burn throughs would be easier to get.  I guess that's what was at the bottom of my 'understanding' of it, if I could be said to have had any understanding.Because that guy and I were talking about burn throughs.Now I'm inclined to think it is not true - about the burn throughs - it is just that you usually work on much thinner material with MIG and that's where burn throughs are easier to get anyway.And with MIG you're liable to be working with smaller pieces, less mass of metal,  so's the heat going into the job raises the overall temp of the job a lot quicker than the heat going into a large lump of metal would.  So everything seems hotter.  At the arc it burns through quicker.  The job warms up faster so the welding goes quicker.  Add a little too much wire and the weld pool grows alarmingly giving the whole thing a hot look.  Mucho drama.I'm just a beginner. DIY. Been doing it about 15 years.  In that time I would guess I have spent less than 40 hours actually welding.  Less than one average week for a real welder.  You could multiply that guess by 10 and spread over 15 years it would still leave me virtually totally inexperienced, wouldn't it?So like I haven't got to where every weld I do is a same old, same old.  Every one tends to be a new experience.  So perhaps I see things or fancy I see things that aren't really there.Funny thing though, the more I do the more I like it. Last edited by abrogard; 12-12-2015 at 03:23 PM.
Reply:Stick is hotter than short circuit MIG. Now if its spray transfer or even pulse spray MIG has stick on that one. Im guessing you're referring to what has better penetration rather than total heat input when you're referring to whats "hotter" right?
Reply:Yep, I reckon that's what I'd mean.  What is 'short circuit MIG' ?  Just standard MIG?
Reply:Originally Posted by abrogardYep, I reckon that's what I'd mean.  What is 'short circuit MIG' ?  Just standard MIG?
Reply:So you are saying the longer the arc the colder?  Usually it is considered to be the other way round  I thought.  If I'm Mig welding and think it is getting too hot I lengthen the arc a bit.   Am I kidding myself?  Gets to be an interesting discussion, this.  I've been googling and reading and there's plenty of threads, plenty of posts, but it doesn't get clearer, just gets more confused.  I just want to know if there's a practical difference for the ordinary mug welder: must he bear in mind that MIG will be hotter and so burn through quicker?  Or the reverse?  Or it doesn't  matter? Read someone saying the welds are identical at the same Amps, which sounds good at first sight but then someone piped up and said it's not the Amps that matter it is the Amps x Volts - i.e. the Watts, the work, put into the piece. In fact I saw a youtube vid (which I can't find now) with some guy demonstrating that Amps don't (of themselves) kill.  He was talking about Amps and danger to people, not about welding, but it's pretty much the same, I think?edit:  rethink.  I guess I'm not lengthening the arc, because the wire's still reaching the metal.  But I'm pulling back (gasless wire) so's there's more wire exposed.  I've always thought it was working for me.  Maybe not.  Last edited by abrogard; 12-14-2015 at 04:04 PM.
Reply:With the MIG process arc length has more to do with voltage, and wire speed. Fast feed will shorten the arc. more stick out will likely affect gas coverage, along with voltage. With stick, longer arc length gives more voltage, but weakens the jetting action of the molten filler. More heat, but with more resistance, less amperage. For the most part stick machines don't let you adjust voltage. Short arc gives lower voltage. In the end it comes down to wattage, and proximity. A hotter arc mostly heating room air doesn't translate to more heat in the weld puddle.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Abrogard - Pretty sure you've now gone full circle and become even more confused.Welding is hot - don't touch the metal right after welding - no matter which process is used.Stick, mig, flux-core will all blow a hole in the metal depending on how you are doing it.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.Your example of "if it's getting too hot, I lengthen the arc.."On a mig machine it will still be the same heat because the machine will compensate by creating more amps to burn the wire but not really more wattage.__________________________________________________  __________________________________________________  _"The wire feed speed is in direct relation to the amperage at a given wire stickout (length of wire from the contact tip to the arc). The voltage is in the case of a CV (wire welder) the constant and is the length of the arc from the end of the wire to the weld pool, as you change the wire stick out the amperage changes to maintain the weld voltage. A normal wire stick out for short circuit mig welding is 1/4".The following example may help you understand this with .035 ER70S-6 wire and C25 shield gas set at 20 SCFH flow.1/4" wire stickout, volts 17 and wire feed speed 150 IPM = 100 amps3/8" wire stickout, volts 17 and wire feed speed 150 IPM = 50-60 amps due to the resistive heating of the wire between the tip and the arc the weld current drops to the level required to maintain the set voltage.If you were to reduce the stickout to 1/8" the weld current would increase to approximatly 150 amps to maintain the set voltage.Typical min and max ranges of each wire diameter for ER70S-6.024 minimum 30A 15V 105 IPM WFS, maximum 150A 21V 710 IPM WFSoptimum vert. setting 80A 18V 310 IPM WFSoptimum horiz. setting 110A 21V 465 IPM WFS.030 minimum 50A 17V 95 IPM WFS, maximum 200A 23V 600 IPM WFSoptimum vert. setting 100A 18V 235 IPM WFSoptimum horiz. setting 150A 20V 385 IPM WFS.035 minimum 50A 18V 75 IPM WFS, maximum 225A 25V 500 IPM WFSoptimum vert. setting 150A 18V 185 IPM WFSoptimum horiz. setting 215A 22V 415 IPM WFSI hope this helps more than confuses you."http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtal...ire-Feed-SpeedEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BI don't know amperage, the 252 displays only voltage. I do know a lot more joint can be welded in a given time with MIG.
Reply:You're right.  I'm no clearer on the whole thing.  Tending to think there's no difference, if the question means anything at all, which it probably doesn't because there's too many variables i.e.:  the question lacks definition.I thought of putting it this way: If someone said 'MIG is hotter than Stick'  What would they mean and would it be true? But it's probably better to just shut up.  And do some welding.
Reply:Yes
Reply:Originally Posted by abrogardYou're right.  I'm no clearer on the whole thing.  Tending to think there's no difference, if the question means anything at all, which it probably doesn't because there's too many variables i.e.:  the question lacks definition.I thought of putting it this way: If someone said 'MIG is hotter than Stick'  What would they mean and would it be true? But it's probably better to just shut up.  And do some welding.
Reply:I think it's easy to confuse penetration with heat. An electric welding arc is roughly 10,000 deg's. You want hot, a plasma arc can be 30,000 deg's+ but doesn't warp plate like an arc from welding would. TIG has the most intense arc for welding but it is really concentrated. I think a term like intensity of the arc or power of the arc would be a better thing to judge than heat. A 3/32 rod will have roughly the same arc temperature as a 1/4" rod but a 1/4" will produce a lot more intensity. Maybe someone can word it better than I did. It's kind of like horse power and torque. They work together.
Reply:just to add more confusing, polarity also plays a role. You can burn a rod SP and RP at the exact same settings, and you'll clearly notice a difference in heat.
Reply:ha....  there we go again..  what do you mean 'heat' ?  The whole job area feels hotter to your hand in the glove?  Or the area under the arc seems hotter and burns through or deeper?  Or the job warms up quicker?  Or what?
Reply:Originally Posted by abrogardha....  there we go again..  what do you mean 'heat' ?  The whole job area feels hotter to your hand in the glove?  Or the area under the arc seems hotter and burns through or deeper?  Or the job warms up quicker?  Or what?
Reply:Yep, I think so too.  But see welderdave's post up there (#31).