Comparison of Stick Electrodes for Arc Welding Aluminum - Part 2

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Part 2 deals with fillet welds on T-joints.As was pointed out, laying down weld beads is not the same as welding two pieces of metal together.Part 1 was a necessary prequel to Part 2.  Running weld beads on flat plate was very useful for acclimatization-  gaining experience with the various brands and sizes of these fast burning aluminum electrodes.  I was able to ‘tune in’ on electrode characteristics such as the best amperage, tilt angle, travel speed, techniques for starting and maintaining the short arc, etc.Onto Fillet Welds...Here’s the set up I used for welding these first fillet welds on T-joints in the flat (1F) position.I’m testing a variety of stick arc welding aluminum electrodes of 1/8 and 3/32 inch diameter, and just a few smaller 5/64th electrodes.The test pieces (coupons) were of thickness of 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 inch.  Dimensions were typically 6 x 1.5 inch base plate and 6 x 3/4 inch vertical plate on the 1/16 and 1/8 thick coupons and somewhat larger dimensions for the 1/4 and 1/2 inch thick coupons.Here is a photo of the transformer-based welder used in most of these tests.  The meter displays actual amps of current during welding.  I used a video camera to record a close up view of the meter and amperage scale during welding; the camera also records the events during welding (starts, restarts, welding duration, etc.) as well as my comments at the time of welding.  All electrodes were run DC+ (electrode positive, reverse polarity) as recommended by their manufacturers.  I was welding near the maximum recommended amperage for these electrodes, typically 120 amps for 1/8 inch and 85 amps for 3/32 inch.1/4 inch Thick T-JointHere are some fillet welds across 6 inches of aluminum plate 1/4 inch thick.First an illustration and a word or two on removing the rather tenacious flux/slag from the weld area.Continued in the next post...Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Here’s the first two fillet welds... made with 1/8 inch electrodes.Here’s the second two fillet welds... made with 1/8 inch electrodes.Here’s the third of two fillet welds... made with 3/32 inch electrodes.Summary of Results:  1/4 inch thick aluminum fillet welds, T-joint configuration in flat (1F) positionF1 – 1/8” electrode, 125 amps, fast stringer... not enough heat input = cold looking weldF2 - 1/8” electrode, 120 amps, slow weave...good heat input = good looking weld, some undercut on vertical plate for the last half of the weldF3 - 1/8” electrode, 120 amps, slow stringer...fair heat input = fair looking weld, somewhat lumpyF4 - 1/8” electrode, 120 amps, slow circles...good heat input = good looking weld, slight undercut on vertical plate for the last half of the weldF5 – 3/32” electrode, 85 amps, slow stringer...not enough  heat input = cold looking weld, some areas of fusion on the vertical plate onlyF6 – 3/32” electrode, 87 amps, slow circles...fair heat input = fair looking weld, good tie in at toesComments & Suggestions...?Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:try pausing at the top of the bead with each circle or weave and feeding the rod at the same time.  also angle rod more toward the vertical plate.  will help with undercut.   try this on steel first as its easier and more time to work with the puddle.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:I got to give you this Rick, you do a great job of thoroughly laying out and describing alot of the variables of what your doing in detail. I have personally never stick welded aluminum so i have have nothing to add to this. Now you know some people (Sundown) are going to come on here and bash everything you just did but ignore him and just keep doing what your doing. Great job, keep up the good work"If this is the mens department then where are the Kilts?
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawtry pausing at the top of the bead with each circle or weave and feeding the rod at the same time.
Reply:1/8 inch Thick T-JointsFlux/Slag was difficult to remove from all the welds made on the 1/8 inch thick T-joints.  Wire brush didn’t touch it, pick didn’t touch it and room temp water application didn’t help either.  I was necessary to submerge the coupon(s) in hot water, let it soak for 5 to 10 minutes before removing the softened flux by scrubbing with a fiber brush.Here is the set-up used hold the two pieces of the T-joint in position for welding.3/32 inch ElectrodesHere are the results of using 3/32 inch aluminum electrodes to weld 1/8 inch thick aluminum T-joints.On fillet weld F7 I put much of the weld deposit on the vertical plate instead of being centered between the vertical and horizontal plates.  Compared to fillet weld F7, fillet weld F8 had a lot more heat in it and more weld metal deposited (2.25 inches more electrode).  The 15degrees from flat is defined as 3F, not a "combo 1F-3F"Have we all gone mad?
Reply:So Rick how often do you see yourself welding 1/2" alum as a hobbiest? Actually heavy alum IS where stick starts to be useful. It's doing thin alum with stick thats a PITA.You simply keep missing the point everyone has been making. If you just want to prove you can weld alum on a buget, why not do the whole thread with O/A instead? Few will debate you can't weld alum with O/A, but it's still not practical for most, and takes quite a bit of skill to do so. O/A wouldn't be that suited for doing heavy alum like 1/2". It's certainly possible, but with the acet cylinder size and torch tip size needed, it still wouldn't be a good choice for the average hobbiest. In fact most times if a hobbiest needs to do small projects in alum, O/A brazing is usually recomended if they have a torch set up already.You keep coming back to the fact that it takes an expensive machine to do alum... No it takes an expensive machine to do thin alum (less than say 1/8") or medium alum ( 1/8" to say 1/4" and do it WELL. These are the thicknesses that average home hobiest will want to work with, not 1/2" usually. Doctors don't perform surgury with a Bowie knife for a reason... sure I bet if you had to have your apendix out in the middle of nowhere, a surgeon could slice you open with one and patch you back together. You'd have an ugly scar to show for it however. Think an EMT could accomplish the same thing? Skill and experience plays a huge role in this. The average hobbiest lacks the skills to make this work well.Your lack of skill at stick shows very clearly in all these threads. Your skill is probably equal to or better than ( with all the practice you've been doing) that of the average home hobbiest with a stick machine. Your results are poor at best on 1/8" alum, a thickness that would be the most useful to the average home hobiest. ( I will admit your last welds on 1/2" look the best of all of them, but still have issues) So what you have proved is what everyone keeps trying to tell you, stick welding alum is a poor choice as far as welding 1/8" to 1/4" alum goes.A Hobart 210 with spoolgun would run you about $900 new, the HH190 with spoolgun runs about $830. With about 10 minutes of basic practice I could get you running fairly nice beads on 1/8" alum with no issues and the machine would do 1/4" with no issues for short periods. I'd bet you could get welds at least as good as you are showing on 1/2" with the same preheat... You could accomplish the same with any 200 amp class mig and a spoolgun... which is pretty much what most recomend as a starter mig anyways if you add the spool gun. You could even get better welds than you did with stick on 1/8" with the 140 amp 110v migs and spoolgun if you max them out and preheat... It would still be the wrong machine, but it would be a closer match than stick is. Lets be honest, Dc stick machines are not exactly inexpense either new ( about $500-550 at Northern). I bet you'd find the 180-200 amp class mig and spoolgun fairly close to a decent AC/DC stick machine ( within $200-300). Used most Dc stick machines go for $150-400... I've seen 330 A/BP tigs go for $500 ready to go, and older migs with spoolguns in that same $500 range. You just have to look and be patient.You keep trying to reinvent the wheel and change the laws of physics... If someone with better skills than you could manage to get good welds on thin to medium thickness alum with stick, don't you think it would be used more often by pro's?  Most shops have a Dc stick machine, why wouldn't they use it instead of investing in a spoolgun for occasional jobs? Why don't you hear more about alum stick? Because the need to weld medium to heavy alum is some what limited in general, and you can do a better faster better looking job with mig with less skill.Last edited by DSW; 07-24-2011 at 05:55 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW. U r the one missing the point.  Rick is doing this out of personal interest and curiosity.  If there was no forum I am sure he would do it anyway for the same reason.  No one is arguing the inferiority of the process.  Thus why aluminum electrodes r sold only in small quantities and sparsely available.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Southpaw,  DSW isn't mistaken.  More than once Rick has mentioned he is doing this for the hobbiest weldor.  While I have quit trying to comment on the welding and process, I do think DSW has more than adequately demonstrated he is trying to tactfully guide Rick.  I just lack the delicate tact D has.
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott YoungSouthpaw,  DSW isn't mistaken.  More than once Rick has mentioned he is doing this for the hobbiest weldor.  While I have quit trying to comment on the welding and process, I do think DSW has more than adequately demonstrated he is trying to tactfully guide Rick.  I just lack the delicate tact D has.
Reply:the hobart handler 187 is a great machine and with a spool gun it becomes an easy start.  I have seen it on sale for 699.00
Reply:Keep doing what makes you happy.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:Return to 1/4 inch Thick T-JointsAfter Lawson pointed out the importance of preheat for aluminum welding, I decided to return to the 1/4 inch T-joints and see if I could strike the right balance between amps and preheat temperature to produce a better weld.  The results, both Bad & Good are shown.  This was a learning experience for me and I share that now.Here’s the set up for welding fillet welds F25, F26 and F27.  The inclination angle was 30 degrees from flat.  According to sn0border88 (thanks), an inclination greater than 15 degrees from flat is vertical position 3F.Here are two fillet welds made with a preheat of 250 degrees F.Here’s a fillet weld made at the same 105 amps as F25 and F26 but preheat was raised from 250F to 300F.The metal got too hot with 300F preheat and 105 amps! I could speed up my travel but then I wouldn’t deposit a full length of rod and I need to lay down a full rod to obtain a proper weld with legs of about 1 T (1/4 inch).  Thus, I had to either lower the preheat temperature from 300F or reduce my amperage.  I already ran F25 and F26 with 105 amps at 250F so I decided to try keeping the higher preheat temperature of 300F and reduce the amps to about 80.I also changed position from vertical 3F to flat 1F to further reduce heat input into the weld.Here’s the result at 300F with reduced amperage and a change from the vertical to flat position.To be continued in the next post...Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:In looking at all my fillet welds...I saw that a too cold weld had a very high convex (n-shaped) profile.  The deposited metal did not always adhere (wet in) at the edges and built up high in the middle of the weld bead.I saw that too hot a weld had a washed-out/ spread-out look with a concave (U-shaped) profile.  The deposited metal wets in at the sides/edges and sinks low in the middle of the bead.I noticed that the few ‘good’ welds I made, F2, F26 and F28 seemed to have either a slightly convex or slightly concave weld profile.Weld...Temp...Amps...Pos...BeadF2..........85F....120.....1F.....convexF28......300F......85.....1F.....concaveF26......250F....105.....3F.....concaveI saw that preheat can significantly (30%) reduce amperage.E.g. F2: 120 amps at 85F versus F28: 85 amps at 300FRick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:1/16 inch Thick T-JointsUsing 5/64 and 3/32 electrodes at amperages ranging from 30 to 60 amps, I was unable to make a decent weld fillet weld.I tried at room temperature and with a preheat to 200 F.If I traveled slow enough to weld, I was always burning through.If I travelled real fast to avoid burn through, I left behind a series of spaced out bird-droppings!I tried multiple fast runs followed by a slow weld; I didn’t burn through but the resulting ‘weld’ looked ‘bad’.I tried backing the thin aluminum plates with 1/4 inch thick flat aluminum (and later copper) plates to act as a heat sink and prevent melt through; it helped but not enough.I had a go at this several times in many different ways but I could not get a presentable weld.Here are some of the attempts using the small 5/64 inch electrodes.First attempt.Second attempt – with backing plates.Third attempt – with backing plates.Here are the results of three attempts with the small 5/64 inch aluminum electrodes.For me, stick welding 1/16 inch aluminum just didn't work.To Conclude...The various brands of aluminum electrodes performed about the same... so buy the cheapest ones.Preheat to 250 or 300 F is recommended to reduce potential porosity and had the observed effects of:lowering the amperage by ~30% compared to room temperature, andmade starting the arc and maintaining the arc easier.With sufficient practice, stick welding is possible on aluminum 1/8 thick or greater.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Good show Rick.At first I was kinda bored with your experimentation, but as you got involved it became interesting.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:craigslist - used oven from free to $50, makes pre-heating much easier.miller syncrowave 250hobart handler 140home made 400 amp engine driven in progress...
Reply:sundown my question for u is. have u ever made a positive comment on anyone on this board??? i have been lurking here for several months and cannot remember anything from u but negative comments. i will never be a good welder and i am not qualified to comment on other peoples welds but have gotten by in the auto motive business for over 30 years with very few of my welds giving problems. since u are so perfect why dont u try to help those of us that need help and quit trying to drag us down to your level.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonGood show Rick.At first I was kinda bored with your experimentation, but as you got involved it became interesting.
Reply:Originally Posted by joebieI agree.  It isn't my money anyways.  :-)It is kind of nice to see things laid out the way Rick does it.  But a lot of you guys care too much about what Rick is spending his money on LOL
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI thought it hilarious that some peeps found that Rick was wasting THEIR time. I will agree that that I too initially thought this was an excessive in futility but I actually learned a couple of things. What kept me coming back was the side show antics.
Reply:Guys.What the experienced guys are trying to say to Rick is that his experiments lack merrit due to the fact the Rick doesn't have the skills to weld with stick. He continues to make bead after bead of awefull looking welds. By the look of every picture he has posted of his welds he is consistant at being inconsistant with his travel speed, rod angle and arc length..all no no's with stick welding.A skilled stick welder may make one bad bead, then he makes an adjustment to correct his poor actions. Rick just continues to make poor weld after poor weld which shows his inexperience. I would be embarased to post pics of welds that looked like Ricks on an online forum.The inexperienced newbies will continue to cheer on Rick for his actions but the experienced and skilled guys can see right through all this.These aluminum stick rods are very expensive and absorb moisture faster than 7018 does if improperly stored. If Rick wishes to continue waisting his $ on a process he will never use and noboby uses, it's entirely up to him.I just cant justify it myself.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproe I would be embarased to post pics of welds that looked like Ricks on an online forum.The inexperienced newbies will continue to cheer on Rick for his actions but the experienced and skilled guys can see right through all this.