|
|
I'm in the process of welding some railings for my house. I tacked this railing with everything in place. It did move some on me at the top. I believe the ends started to pull towards the middle post which is why the 1/4" flat bar on the top is stressed. Hindsight I should have used 3/8" on the top but also clamped and tacked something alot more ridgid to the top to keep things in place. I'm pretty sure my tacks are pulling the thing especially where the weld has to be deep at the acute angle. I am planning on welding the flat bar completely around. What I'd like to know is what is the best way at this point to keep this thing from moving more? It still fits fine, and things are still pretty plumb. But if it moves more, I think I'll be in trouble. There is a wood rail cap on top that will straighten the 1/4" flat bar out. Thanks for your thoughts. Nick.
Reply:Nothing guys? Not even "you are screwed, you might as well start over."
Reply:Maybe it is the photo, but seems like an extreme amount of movement, you put a lot of heat in it . I don't know that the wood cap will flatten it because of the excess. It will gather and have a bow somewhere. Just weld the outside. All else looks good.
Reply:I have clamped a 2x4 to the 1/4" flat top. It does flatten out. It just boings up or down depending on how I pull it. I was thinking if I weld all the other angles that will pull it back when they cool it might remedy the problem somewhat. Was also going to tack a piece of tube to the top flat bar to keep it from moving more. I should have locked top and bottom with some angle before I started tacking.
Reply:Maybe I should grind out balusters and start over with prexautions
Reply:I still struggle with this sometimes but my thoughts are that the problem is partly in the order of operations. The interior flats seem ok, so my guess would that the top flat was tacked on first and then the interior flats, starting with the bottom ones first and working up. This would progressively pull the side posts in enough to cause the warpage in the top.I doubt the wood top will pull it in. My solution would be to finish weld everything (moving around a lot to keep it even) except for the top flat. I would then cut the top flat off and weld the replacement on. It might also make more sense to replace the top flat now and then finish weld everything. There are others on here with a lot more experience who could probably add to that.My thoughts for what they are worth.Good luck.Licensed Marine MechanicInterprovincial MillwrightCivil Engineer
Reply:Originally Posted by Nick KentNothing guys? Not even "you are screwed, you might as well start over."
Reply:Yes. I did go bottom up. Damnit. That makes sense. If I cut the top off and then refit it and redo the top and lock it into place and then finish weld hopefully it will be ok. The one with square cuts is going a lot smoother
Reply:Flat bar in that position is hard to control . You may consider clamping the same length of maybe 2''x 2'' angle iron to the flat bar and then tack it and weld . Only weld enough to do the job.
Reply:I have to try to save it. This is preventing us from moving into the house
Reply:Get some scrap i-beams or heavy HSS and set it up flat on the floor to make a jig from? Clamp to the steel or weld pegs to it to make a jig to prevent it from pulling. Setting up the jigging and fixturing could take as long as the cutting and welding of the piece itself, but it should help ensure excellent repeatable results!
Reply:Try heat shrinking the top rail it should take most of the warp out. gxbxc
Reply:Originally Posted by gxbxcTry heat shrinking the top rail it should take most of the warp out. gxbxc
Reply:clamp, clamp, clamp...and weld (hot) only parallel to your tubes, these 3/8 bars are only cosmetic, not a ladder (by the way probably not conform to code) and then you will be able to weld your 1/4 top rail perpendicular to tube (parallel to railing)...BFH to straighten the rest take your time .
Reply:Now I'm a little overwhelmed with the input. If I remove the top piece completely do you guys think the posts will spring inward even more? I really need to prevent that. I think I'm going to clamp and tack a piece of tubing to the top to hopefully hold it in place. Then I'm going to tack 2 more pieces of angle midspan and lower on it to hopefully lock everything in place. Then I will finish welding it moving around trying to keep it from getting too hot. If that doesn't work out Ill cut off the ballusters, hopefully save my posts and start over with the tubing and angle tacked on the posts prior to beginning the fit up. I had to use 120 volt for tacking. Wondering if it just got too hot because it took a while to heat up. I was using a 1/16" tungsten with 1/16" filler. Should I jump up to 3/32 on either the tungsten or the filler? Thanks for all the input guys.Oh, shrinking the top by heating and quenching is a bit beyond my skill level.
Reply:Zee problem eeees...................You used a solid continuous top rail/flat/whatever........ The heat wasn't balanced at the welds.All your middle pieces were fillet tack welded on both sides, thus canceling out the tendency to pull. AND THEY WERE INDIVIDUAL PIECES.Trash the top rail, and start over. You can still use a continuous piece of flat.THIS TIME Don't do the fillet tacks. Just tack on the sides at the top of the tubing where it butt joins the flat. Welds along a piece of flat, along the edge, will not pull the flat.Last edited by farmersamm; 10-15-2014 at 02:59 AM.Reason: clarity, and fixing a mistake"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Fillets pull the worst. A weld along the straight axis won't pull the flat towards/away from the central part of the structure"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:And you'll have to bevel the flat to accept the weld at the butt joint. No biggy, just be careful not to bevel it where it passes the edge of the tubing, or it'll be seen"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:When you finish weld it, after all the tacks are in, balance the heat. Do one side, then the other, in sequence. This includes all the welds on the other pieces.When it pulls, and it will probably, I can walk you thru the straightening process. Little heat shrinking, and you'll be done"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Cut the top off, weld everything, put the top back on with minimal heat. And watch weldingtipsandtricks distortion video on YouTube. IMO a very good quick description of which ways metal with warp or pull
Reply:So, just to clarify. Farmersamm, you're saying to weld on the sides only and not along the flat of the bar?Not here
Reply:If I cut the top off and weld it, won't it move even more. It can't mover more or in afraid everything will get screwyerHere is a piece of 1x clamped to the top. Seems to straighten up ok.
Reply:Do your "field" welds first. The ones that attach all the "slats" inside the perimeter.Start in the middle, with the midmost post, weld each side in sequence.I'm drawing a sequence example, should put it up in a few minutes."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:The existing fillets can be finished in this manner, and it will balance the heat as you go. You'll be working from the center out, not on the diagonals skipping around like a lot of people suggest. Allow some reasonable time for cooling as it gets hot, then continue.Distortion is caused by the weld heat, as you know. The weld puddle cools to a solid bead, and shrinks as it does so, now you have problems.Whether, or not, you skip all over the place doing a weld here, a weld there, the problem still exists. I've found that moving all over the structure does very little good when controlling distortion. The real idea is to balance the heat input around each individual newel post in your case. There doesn't have to be anything but a simple sequence to do so.I'd cut the top rail off, pretty easy now that it's just tacked. Weld your newel posts, then reattach the top rail (preferably a new one), and weld the sides only as in my drawing earlier.I like to straighten at every step. You can straighten any heat damage in the center of the railing before reattaching the top rail.If you choose to keep the top rail, it can be straightened. It won't be out there for everyone to see because it's under the wood handrail. You might see it from below as you walk thru the room though, but it should be pretty close so you'd have to really LOOK to see it. However, I would take it off at this point if it was me."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Your illustration of how it gets sorta straight when clamped can be misleading.A few clamps, here and there, will show it's trying to straighten out. But as you add the real fasteners, which are probably closer together, you might just see that the "memory" in the steel will start to show itself, you'll have Wavy Gravy"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/Actually I guess those are pickets, been a long time since I messed with wood projects"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:As much of a disaster as this has been, I suppose you're a little afraid to follow my advice. I don't blame you one bit, it's a lot of money involved here.I do this kind of thing pretty regular (not rails, but other stuff subject to distortion), and if you've looked at some of it, you'll see that I usually wind up with a pretty nice finished product.Anyways It's sort of a mess now, and it has to be finished regardless.Dunno why the decorative metal dooods haven't chimed in"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I'd either cut the top bar loose and let it go straight then re tack or heat the end or ends as required red hot with the torch and see if it will be enough shrinkage, could heat other spots for more shrinkage. Would be good to have something holding it straight at that point. I don't see a problem welding these bars on the flats just don't to crazy on the heat and if you do get pull, use the cutting torch to warm the weld up red hot to relieve some of the stress and maybe assist them straight if you really had to.
Reply:I agree with Samm - weld the sides only to help it not pull - it's not structural.The top has to be welded last in my opinion - and flat steel loves to warp The overall design looks nice, it will look even better in the house and done Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Putting top rail on last would have been a good start. Unfortunately that was my first step. Taking a break on the angled one and trying to get this one done now. Fingers crossed.
Reply:The flat stock on the end you finish welding does not have a helper to keep the uprights straight. If you look at the uprights you will see that they just bent in towards the weld. You can just break the weld on that last flat, and beat the uprights straight. But then you run the risk of crushing the next flat when you re-weld the end one. Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:If the top bar was the only warped piece, I probably would have just removed it and replaced it with some square or rectangle tube.
Reply:I am new to this site and came across your project did you solve your problem ?
Reply:I took the top bar off the lower section. My lower post ended up a bit out of plumb, but it isn't really noticeable. I did get some movement on a post on the flat rail section. This post happened to but to a wall so it did not look good. It got crowned so the middle of the post was contacting the wall, but not the bottom and top. I clamped it to a piece of tubing with a piece of flat bar in between to bend it back. I then heated the welds and it did come back some. It is not perfectly straight, but is more than acceptable. I couldn't believe it worked, but I had no choice. I had to try something. I welded the lower railing section on the sides so no sharp corners. I put the top back on last. It is nice and straight. I'll post some picks of the finished project when I get it installed and back from powder coat. Thanks for all the advice. It was a somewhat frustrating learning experience, but at the same time I'm glad I took the challenge and did it.Last edited by Nick Kent; 10-19-2014 at 09:38 PM.
Reply:Glad it worked out for you. The great thing about this kind of stuff is, it will be just as scary and heart wrenching next time, because of all the infinite variables.I did a solid bronze rail and a stainless pipe rail and I did not preload the joints. It took a giant rawhide mallet with the bronze rail under hydraulic pressure to get it back. The stainless rail required my pipe bender die straight guide pieces and 25,000 pounds to get it straight. Just because I did not preload the joint in the opposite direction it would shrink, ahead of time.Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:Got it back today and installed. Still need wood tops, but safe enough to live here. I'll get some pics with hand rail next weekThanks for all the help. Nick
Reply:Nick-Kent 'The first cut is the deepest' . . . but the last cut can hurt just as much . . .Your fabrication travails are manifold:undeveloped design and weld engineering, nonexistent joinery, coupled with an inappropriate weld process.In situ - is discordant as the fabrication:Incongruous style with the wall rail, wrong color, and the elements are visually too heavy for the space, and textures.This project was beyond your command. Ability 1st. - Design 2nd. - Fab & Weld last.Kudos ^ ^ ^ for gutting it through, finishinga project is paramount . . .Opusp.s. - Gorgeous wood.
Reply:Gee, thanks. You'd have to take your issues up with the designer, which wasn't me.
Reply:Nick-KentPlease forward my critique - extant - to the designer;And read for content - not conflict . . .Opus.Last edited by OPUS FERRO; 10-25-2014 at 12:42 AM.Reason: WW crash interval
Reply:Originally Posted by Nick KentGot it back today and installed. Still need wood tops, but safe enough to live here. I'll get some pics with hand rail next weekThanks for all the help. Nick
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormickGlad it worked out for you. The great thing about this kind of stuff is, it will be just as scary and heart wrenching next time, because of all the infinite variables.Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERRONick-KentPlease forward my critique - extant - to the designer;And read for content - not conflict . . .Opus. |
|
发表于 2021-8-31 22:19:34