Tubing bender die fabrication

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I've got in my head an idea for an enclosed aerodynamic motorcycle and am looking at tubing benders. Need to bend lots of tubing at several different sizes.  The dies seem to be the main problem as they are so expensive. Even the cheaper dies are 150 to 200 bucks. I am planning on building the tubing bender myself and using air / hydraulic power to bend.Here is what I am thinking. Seeing how the dies are so expensive and I need at least three sizes, why not build them myself?Here's my thought. Why not take one of those cheap harbor freight pipe benders and bend some schedule 40 pipe to the size of the die I need. So if I need a 1.5 inch die, the inside of the schedule 40 would be 1.5 inches.  After bending, Cut the schedule 40 pipe in half with the plasma cutter.Then take some 3/8 inch steel plate and cut it to the profile of the bent and cut schedule 40 pipe.I would then weld two 3/8 inch plates to the bent and cut schedule 40 pipe to support the die profile.I could then drill or plasma cut the holes needed for pins and such. For the tubing support die (not sure if that is what it is called) I would just cut straight schedule 40 pipe in half and weld it to a block of steel. I am thinking that this would eliminate the need for machining of blocks of steel or aluminum as that seems to be the main reason for the expense of the dies.I figure I can build a die this way for around 50 bucks in material. Anyone see any problems with this line of thought? Attached Images
Reply:make sure you put that seam weld on the pipe on the side your not saving when you bend it i see this working but most likely scarring the tubing you bend with itMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:Originally Posted by StevefromOhioHere is what I am thinking. Seeing how the dies are so expensive and I need at least three sizes, why not build them myself?I figure I can build a die this way for around 50 bucks in material. Anyone see any problems with this line of thought?
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloYou will burn about $400 in labor on each die, and the dies you make will be only as good as the alignment you can create for them. While they might make a bend or 3, the repeatability will be a big issue.Look for a used JD Squared model 3 on the offroad websites. You will be miles ahead of the game in no time flat.
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldingWookiemake sure you put that seam weld on the pipe on the side your not saving when you bend it i see this working but most likely scarring the tubing you bend with it
Reply:Being off by as little as 1 degree in the fabrication of your die/bender will be an exercise in frustration when you try to do repeated bends or multiple bends/rotations in a single piece.    The machined dies and followers have precise tolerances for accuracy and repeatability.ɹǝʌo ǝɯ lloɹ 'sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ uɐɔ noʎ ɟı
Reply:Hi SteveI built a tubing bender years ago and understand you concern about price of dies.Here is some helpful info buy the plans from http://www.gottrikes.com/Tube_Bender.htm this bender is great and easy to build. Then buy you dies from http://www.pro-tools.com/ I heard they give a 10% discount on dies if you tell them you have franks plans. Also make a roller to use with the bender instead of the slide block (also don’t buy it, more savings) this helps big time with bending tubing.  See attached pictures also my bender is the top one on franks site.  Plus use a HF air/hydraulic 8 ton ram (great price) on the bender save your arms. One other plus is this bender is mobile and works anywhere you don't need to give up shop floor space.Have funTom Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by tackitBy checking my pipe chart you'll have to go to schedule 80 pipe to get 1.5" ID.   may need a shop to bend it for you.  What type of apparatus are you building to hold the tube and bend it around the die?
Reply:Originally Posted by acourtjesterHi SteveI built a tubing bender years ago and understand you concern about price of dies.Here is some helpful info buy the plans from http://www.gottrikes.com/Tube_Bender.htm this bender is great and easy to build. Then buy you dies from http://www.pro-tools.com/ I heard they give a 10% discount on dies if you tell them you have franks plans. Also make a roller to use with the bender instead of the slide block (also don’t buy it, more savings) this helps big time with bending tubing.  See attached pictures also my bender is the top one on franks site.  Plus use a HF air/hydraulic 8 ton ram (great price) on the bender save your arms. One other plus is this bender is mobile and works anywhere you don't need to give up shop floor space.Have funTom
Reply:Sounds to me like you are more interested in building a bender than a bike.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtySounds to me like you are more interested in building a bender than a bike.
Reply:I am watching thisIts a Datsun 1200 coupe.
Reply:There are some things the there is no substitute for a tubing bender is one.  Here is the frame I built for my 34 ford. 1-5/8" tubing .135 wall.Tom Attached Images
Reply:over on pirate4x4 there is a guy that just did exactly what you are looking at doing. I'll have to see if I can find the exact link for you.
Reply:Build the bender, buy the dies.  That's all I'm gonna say.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmBuild the bender, buy the dies.  That's all I'm gonna say.
Reply:Here is the thread of the guy on pirate.http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthrea...7#post12865277I would still buy the dies for quality of the bend.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mattamd_xpHere is the thread of the guy on pirate.http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthrea...7#post12865277I would still buy the dies for quality of the bend.
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtySounds to me like you are more interested in building a bender than a bike.
Reply:For 'hacking' away at some dies, your built-up die plan may sort-of work.To make 'real' dies, you really ought to just machine them.  And -THAT- is why they cost ~$200 each.  Because a (relatively) big chunk of steel gets machined in a big lathe or mill.  And the machine and the machining and the steel all cost time and money.Build the bender frame/machine and buy the dies.  No one will think any 'less' of you.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseFor 'hacking' away at some dies, your built-up die plan may sort-of work.To make 'real' dies, you really ought to just machine them.  And -THAT- is why they cost ~$200 each.  Because a (relatively) big chunk of steel gets machined in a big lathe or mill.  And the machine and the machining and the steel all cost time and money.Build the bender frame/machine and buy the dies.  No one will think any 'less' of you.
Reply:Originally Posted by GBMLOL, I see no problem with that... I have used a lot of different projects over the years to ' justify ' making or buy a new TOOL ..... remember, he who dies with the most tools wins...
Reply:I like this one.....HE who dies with the most tools.....is DEAD.
Reply:The model 3 is what I use every day bending DOM. dies are not expensive and it has the precision to do whatever you want. best to buy one used.
Reply:This is an amazing post as it highlights most of the frustrations people go through in making things for yourself or having just enough skill to think you can do it properly.  In my limited time fabricating things out of metal I have learned a few things that really stick out.  1.  Time is money and no one has an unlimited amount of time.  If you want to build everything then you will never get anything done.  2. Invest in buying (and using) the right tools.  If you were to follow your line of reasoning about building a bender to build a bike, you might as well buy a lathe and just make the dies (and the bender) and then the bike (along with the capabilities to build a myriad of other things). 3. Listen to other people who have more experience and learn from their mistakes.   I have been lucky to find two Hossfeld's over the years for less than 500 bucks, but you could make the frame easy enough, especially if you all you want to do is bend tube.  I have made dies for my Hossfeld on the lathe with limited success and have found that just buying them at 200 bucks is totally worth it.  Also, you probably don't really need hydraulic assist.  If you build something similar to the Hossfeld or JD^2 just do it manually and save yourself some time and money.  Convert it later if you need to do production bends or larger sizes.  You have to also consider the wall thickness of the tube you are bending and that the die shape is not a half circle (as one might suspect) thus the tube isn't round where the bend is (at least for a Hossfeld die).IdealArc TIG 300Hobart Handler 175Squarewave TIG 175Miller CP300ESAB A10-160KVintage Miller Heliarcnot sure where you are in Ohio but here ya go:http://cleveland.craigslist.org/tls/2370081889.htmlhttp://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/tls/2381252612.htmlIdealArc TIG 300Hobart Handler 175Squarewave TIG 175Miller CP300ESAB A10-160KVintage Miller Heliarc
Reply:Originally Posted by brokespokesThis is an amazing post as it highlights most of the frustrations people go through in making things for yourself or having just enough skill to think you can do it properly.  In my limited time fabricating things out of metal I have learned a few things that really stick out.  1.  Time is money and no one has an unlimited amount of time.  If you want to build everything then you will never get anything done.  2. Invest in buying (and using) the right tools.  If you were to follow your line of reasoning about building a bender to build a bike, you might as well buy a lathe and just make the dies (and the bender) and then the bike (along with the capabilities to build a myriad of other things). 3. Listen to other people who have more experience and learn from their mistakes.   I have been lucky to find two Hossfeld's over the years for less than 500 bucks, but you could make the frame easy enough, especially if you all you want to do is bend tube.  I have made dies for my Hossfeld on the lathe with limited success and have found that just buying them at 200 bucks is totally worth it.  Also, you probably don't really need hydraulic assist.  If you build something similar to the Hossfeld or JD^2 just do it manually and save yourself some time and money.  Convert it later if you need to do production bends or larger sizes.  You have to also consider the wall thickness of the tube you are bending and that the die shape is not a half circle (as one might suspect) thus the tube isn't round where the bend is (at least for a Hossfeld die).
Reply:You have built 2 homes, a big barn, a telescope, a nationally known bicycle and many others. And you worked in a machine shop fow a couple of years and went to Lincoln welding school. All on you own, with no help. Right?You have done it all, in a short time.Why in the heck are you asking questions here? Please post pics and specs. I am interested myself.Tim Beeker.
Reply:You have had some good feed back,Brokespokes was honest, I liked his input.You jumped on him with arrogance, that I'm sure that you didn't mean.Tim Beeker.
Reply:Originally Posted by tnjindYou have built 2 homes, a big barn, a telescope, a nationally known bicycle and many others. And you worked in a machine shop fow a couple of years and went to Lincoln welding school. All on you own, with no help. Right?You have done it all, in a short time.Why in the heck are you asking questions here? Please post pics and specs. I am interested myself.
Reply:Some of you guys need to re-introduce yourself to what a hobby is. Dude wants to spend hobby time, doing hobby stuff. If you want to contribute to his questions, cool. If not, there about six thousand other threads to read.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:I never thought I was arrogant. I guess having confidence in my abilities may seem arrogant to some. So be it. Not my problem. This building stuff is not a hobby with me. It is more fun than a hobby. I look forward to waking up every day with new ideas on what to build or how to build it. Kind of looks like some people wake up with a chip on their shoulders and want to cut others down and say it can't be done.  I like the old Chinese proverb that goes..."Man who say it cannot be done must get out of way of man doing it." Got to go now. I'm building a nuclear reactor and it will be taking up some of my time. (just kidding!)
Reply:Good advice tenpins!And Steve, I wasn't implying that you shouldn't do it or that you aren't capable.  By all means, let her rip and post some pics of what you come up with.Another thing you can try:  Again, not sure what size tubing and wall you want to make dies for (aside from the 1.5") and CLR for that matter but for a motorcycle frame I will assume 1" or 7/8" .065 wall, 2" to 4" CLR.  You could possibly choose aluminum for your dies and use a router with a carbide bit to shape two halves of the die and then bolt them together.  I haven't done this with aluminum but have using hardwood with good results (for small diameter tubing).Good luck.IdealArc TIG 300Hobart Handler 175Squarewave TIG 175Miller CP300ESAB A10-160KVintage Miller Heliarc
Reply:Wood is not a bad idea, maybe thin plywood so you could cut each piece to form the radius then laminate together?Tim Beeker.
Reply:Originally Posted by brokespokes....  and that the die shape is not a half circle (as one might suspect) thus the tube isn't round where the bend is (at least for a Hossfeld die).
Reply:I think all the attention to this thread is indication that there is a need for a cheaper way to have dies for bending tubing or a better way to bend tubing.I see some very good input here and am going to put it to good use. Any and all ideas are greatly appreciated.....even the ones that say buy the dies. It may come out that is what I will do if I find it way more trouble than it is worth. You guys that are saying that may be right. But it could also be that if we all put our heads together, we may find a better way.
Reply:Steve, phuk the poo-pooer's!Time is not money. Time is just time. You spend it doing what you want. $200 for a die is $200, real money, out of your pocket. If you haven't the money to spare then you haven't got a choice. Even if you have the cash, if you don't want to spend it on something, you don't. Making something for yourself is never a bad thing unless it's going to cause injury or death.  You'll learn stuff as you go. Your not holding up a job for a client so you've got all the time in the world. I'll be eager to follow your progress. Take pictures for sure, as you go! Bert200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:I wonder if you could copy existing dies and maybe sand cast them in aluminum. I am sure the aluminum would wash out quicker then steel. Just thinking out loud.My buddy just dropped off his bender for me to use. It hase 1 3/4" dies. I will study it closer.Tim Beeker.
Reply:I suggest buying the dies as you will never make a nice die unless you do it right. By RIGHT, I mean machine it and do it correctly with correct geometry, etc. Here is one I made. I made the tool to cut the radius. The tool took a day to make. The die will take you a bit of time too. Not sure what your time is worth but although I can machine plenty of specialty parts like these, I will not be doing it again. I will buy them. Attached Imageshttp://jackalopefab.com/MM210Synchrowave 200DXMiller XMT350 w/60series feederMiller Bobcat 250 with SGA 100 and spoolgunHTP PlasmaFull Machine shop with everything
Reply:The die is 8620 alloy and machined nicely but it took a long time. Something you need to consider besides the time, is the cost of the materials too. These guys making these things are making them on such a high volume that they can get materials for less and they have the cnc machines to machine them in a fraction of the time.That hunk of 8620 was close to $100 by itself.Some things to consider. BTW, I would be very hesitant to buy a bike someone made if their tools were made and looked like crap. It suggests their work is on par with their tools..........Food for thought.Granthttp://jackalopefab.com/MM210Synchrowave 200DXMiller XMT350 w/60series feederMiller Bobcat 250 with SGA 100 and spoolgunHTP PlasmaFull Machine shop with everything
Reply:Originally Posted by jackalopeThe die is 8620 alloy and machined nicely but it took a long time. Something you need to consider besides the time, is the cost of the materials too. These guys making these things are making them on such a high volume that they can get materials for less and they have the cnc machines to machine them in a fraction of the time.That hunk of 8620 was close to $100 by itself.Some things to consider. BTW, I would be very hesitant to buy a bike someone made if their tools were made and looked like crap. It suggests their work is on par with their tools..........Food for thought.Grant
Reply:jackalope, nice work on the die, do you have any more info/photos on your radius tool you made?
Reply:Originally Posted by tnjindI wonder if you could copy existing dies and maybe sand cast them in aluminum. I am sure the aluminum would wash out quicker then steel. Just thinking out loud.
Reply:Originally Posted by monkersjackalope, nice work on the die, do you have any more info/photos on your radius tool you made?
Reply:Well after using my buddies bender I don't think wood or even aluminum would work very well. Had to clean some minor surface rust off the dies so the stock would slide and not kink.Tim Beeker.
Reply:Originally Posted by zipzitJackalope, I concur.  Nice work.  Is that a ball turner with long axis so you can cut concave rounds (grooves) ??Would love to see a close up of the fixture..--zip
Reply:Originally Posted by jackalopeI will attach a pic another tool that cuts both concave and convex radii. It is very heavy duty and uses 1000lb rated tapered roller bearings in a machined hub. It fits on my lathe's compound cross slide's t-slot. It is very rigid and is fully adjustable.
Reply:Zip,The Hossfeld dies are ovalized slightly as when the bend is started the tube or pipe gets wedged in the die and then the follow block slides along.  The back black helps keep constant pressure on the back part of the stock.  The wedging of the pipe or tube distributes the pressure evenly around the material.  I also thought that it was circular until I made some smaller dies (for bending 1/2" thin walled tube) on my lathe.  Because there was no pinching action the tube was flattened on the bends.  If I had a working camera I would snap a photo to show you a 1" tube laid up in a die.   I have also thought about making them on a rotary table and will try that as soon as I get some time.Judging from the dies, I believe that Hossfeld casts them and then machines the surfaces.IdealArc TIG 300Hobart Handler 175Squarewave TIG 175Miller CP300ESAB A10-160KVintage Miller Heliarc
Reply:I would be very interested in seeing how you plan to bend the 3" exhaust tubing in your bender.  Thin-wall 3"  is going to do some interesting things when you try to get the typical exhaust curves in it.  I like to build things myself, but I feel like exhaust tubing, when you care what the results look like, should only be done on a mandrel bender .Doug"Hydraulic assist is necessary because I will be needing it. I will be also bending 3 inch tubing for a diesel exhaust system...(stainless steel Tubing) so the tubing bender will need hydraulics....just planning ahead."Miller Syncrowave 350Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgunMiller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgunLincoln PowerArc4000Lincoln 175 Mig  Lincoln 135 Mig Everlast 250EX TigCentury ac/dc 230 amp stickVictor O/AHypertherm 1000 plasma
Reply:Steve,Even guys capable of machining their own dies choose to buy them.  That should tell you something right there.Having said that, I intend to machine a few sets of dies eventually.  The reason is that I can't buy dies for my bender anymore and I certainly can't buy dies like I want.My name's not Jim....