Decisions, Decisions (Scratch-Start vs Addtional Machine)

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Well guys, I've got a bit of a dilemma and was hoping for some words of wisdom or a bit of guidance. I picked up the T-bolt in my signature about a year ago for $150. I've run some 6011 and 7018 beads just playing around with it but I very rarely stick weld anything these days and the leads that came with it are pretty ugly (insulation cracked through to the copper) so they need replaced. I've been looking to get my feet wet with TIG (I messed with a TIG for a bout an hour in college and haven't touched one since) and started pricing out all the components to build a scratch-start setup with the T-bolt. The total by the time I buy all of the components to make the T-bolt run TIG and replace leads is looking like about $600 (even getting stuff from a couple different online vendors). So total I would have about $750 in a rig that still can't do aluminum in the future. Now my dilemma is that recently, a very, very nice Dialarc HF-P came up for sale locally for about $500. It does come with the foot-pedal and factory running gear but it does not come with leads and it needs a capacitor for the HF start. I would still have to buy all the TIG components for the Dialarc but I would likely get better components so I wouldn't have to upgrade later. I hate buying tools more than once if I can spend a little more up front and not have to upgrade but I'm estimating that the Dialarc would put me somewhere in the $1500-2000 range by the time it was all done. So the question is, should I ditch the scratch-start idea for the T-bolt, sell it, go get the Dialarc, and spend a good bit more up front but have a rig that will last me a lot longer before I need a more capable machine OR do I build the scratch-start setup on the T-bolt, learn with that, and upgrade directly to a much newer, feature rich (read Dynasty or Syncrowave) machine sometime in the future? If the latter option is my best choice, are there better places to look for scratch-start components? If I'm going to go with the scratch-start setup, I don't want to invest a ton into it to replace it in the future. I've been looking at most of the typical online vendors (USAweld, weldingsupply.com, cyberweld.com, and weldfabulous.com) and the torches and weld cable seem to be about the same price range across the board (two most expensive components aside from the argon tank). I haven't had much luck at all sourcing anything used. I appreciate any guidance from those who've done this before..."You cannot inspect quality into a product, it must be manufactured into the product."Millermatic 210Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC Blue-Point (Smith) O/A
Reply:Hey Mopar.I started with scratch-start on my Tbolt to be sure I was really interested and able to learn the process. I really enjoyed it, so started looking for a good used TIG machine. It took nearly 2 years to find a deal that I was happy with. A Syncrowave 250 with foot pedal, cooler, torch, and cart. It came off the production floor of a small business that built/repaired axles. All that said as a way of explaining my suggestion. You will need an Argon tank either way, so that's a given. To simply scratch-start with your Tbolt only requires good leads (but perhaps shorter than you might buy for stick), a regulator, and an air cooled torch. Seems to me you would be better served to replace your leads (helps to resell your Tbolt if you decide later) so you can stick weld and use with your TIG rig. Buy an aircooled TIG rig and regulator off Craigslist or on-line for around $100-150 and get started. Meanwhile, look for a good deal in a used name brand TIG with AC so you can do aluminum. You can always add water cooled torch and cooler later. Hopefully the TIG will come with a foot pedal.Just my view. Good luck and hope to see some pictures from you soon.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Before you drop your hard earned cash on a fancy hf tig welder you have to ask yourself, "how much aluminum will I actually be welding in the future"?For myself, I rarely need to weld aluminum. It just isn't as common as one would think.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Keep the thunderbolt!!!  It's a great machine to have in your arsenal!  I've got one that gets used for scratch start tig and stick all the time... I'm in the middle of a project with it right now, 100 rods into a forge build. All 1/2" plate. When I run the tig torch it's a nice clean arc that digs nice and hard. (I also have a Lincoln hi freq box hooked up to it)Anyway what I'm trying to say it that it's a versatile machine that will hold up to an earthquake!Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:It's crazy to spend $1500-2000 on a Dialarc.  There a clean one on eBay in flushing NY for $300 buy it now (at least it was yesterday).  You can find a used fully setup Syncro 250 for less than that of a fully equipped Dialarc for under $1000.  In your range, a new TA186 costs $1750 with a warranty.You're gonna need a bottle of argon, a gas line and a regulator no matter which way you decide to go, so that really needs to be removed from cost considerations in this instance.  You should be able to buy a tig torch with a valve, adapter, collets, cups and some tungsten for under $100.I have a decent WP26V I can sell u for cheap if you want a used one.  I may even have the adapter I can throw in.Last edited by Drf255; 08-29-2014 at 05:43 AM.
Reply:I am with Al. TIG torch, tungstens, and what not can be purchased on the web for around $100, including a regulator from HTP. The Argon bottle is where all the money is. If you get a deal on a used one you might get away for $75-150. A bottle from your local airgas will be more. Get a larger bottle (80-125 cu ft) if you can, so you don't have to refill as often. With a bit of work, by shopping around, you can get set up for under $200.  Scratch start is fun. I have been doing a lot of scratch start with my stickmate as of late.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Well, the consensus seems to be, keep the Thunderbolt, get my TIG skills down, and upgrade in the future if needed. That's sorta what I expected to hear from you guys so I'll keep going forward with the original plan. Now the fun part trying to track down everything to set up the machine for a reasonable price begins. The tank really is where the biggest cost is coming from. The local used market is pretty much non-existant when it comes to welding equipment so I'm afraid I'm going to be paying Praxair for a new bottle. I've considered just swapping my C25 bottle for straight Ar temporarily (until I find used tank) but I know I'll end up needing my MIG for something the day after I do that. Can I MIG with 100% Ar? If so, what are the pros & cons?"You cannot inspect quality into a product, it must be manufactured into the product."Millermatic 210Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC Blue-Point (Smith) O/A
Reply:I have run pure argon on my mig before on a small mild steel job (was in a pinch), didn't seem to notice any difference other than the price, but I never looked into benefits/ disadvantages of it.Www.weldingcity.com has everything you need cheap! Except the bottle... Also with a gas valve torch, you may want to consider getting the biggest bottle you can afford, you will eat up some argon learning and the bigger the bottle the better deal you get having them filled. At least a 125 . I run a 250 on mine with a spare 125 on the side.Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:You can MIG aluminum with Argon, but not steel.I usually can find used tanks on CraigsList at a reasonable price, but you need to ask your LWS if they will exchange. Usually there is no problem on 125 cf and smaller bottles because they are considered owner tanks. Larger are normally on a rental agreement and they only exchange if their name is on it.As mentioned, HTP has a great flowmeter for around $30. I've bought 2-3 of them. You should be able to get an air cooled torch with valve for under $100.Good luck and keep us posted.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:If you are really tight on your budget, just keep looking at CL. Also, as you alluded to, sometimes the LWS will swap one bottle type for another. I would check with them and see if it is possible to swap an oxygen for an argon. I see used oxygen bottles all over the place.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Here's an argon mix tank that is reasonably close to you  http://reading.craigslist.org/tls/4577208373.htmlMiller Multimatic 255
Reply:this one looks sketch, but maybe  http://harrisonburg.craigslist.org/tls/4615146409.htmlMiller Multimatic 255
Reply:If looking for a used bottle, keep in mind any hi pressure tank argon/oxy/co2. Will need to be pressure tested if it's out of date (normally $40-50 around here). If you already know how to check dates than disregard the fallowing !On all hi pressure tanks you will have a few numbers stamped near the neck of the bottle. There will be a 4 digit number that reads somewhere around 1200-1800 usually. This is the pressure the bottle is rated for, so a 1650 would be the recommended fill pressure.Under that somewhere will be a 2 digit number with a +* (usually with a small number from 1-12 in front) this is the year(s) tested.. The small numbers in front ,if there,are the month.  So a number that reads (04) 99+* means April of 99 on the last test.The + means the bottle can be filled 10 percent above the stamped pressure rating.The * means it's a 10 year rating on the last test.So a stamp that reads 99+* is good until 2009 and so on...If a bottle is full but out of date I normally buy it but try to get it $50 cheaper than what they are asking, so I don't loose out when it needs to be pressure tested.Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Assuming hobbyist status, if you're serious about wanting to learn to TIG weld, a scratch start buzz box wouldn't be the way I'd suggest going. If you can afford it, purchase a TIG unit that has remote current control, preferably  with a foot pedal.In 25+ years I've never had a need to weld aluminum at home, I suspect this is true for a high percentage of hobbyist. Due to my lack of need for aluminum, I didn't hesitate to purchase a DC only TIG unit, my choice at the time being a Maxstar 150 STH. I've also grown to prefer an Inverter TIG unit over a transformer. The transformer based units are still a fine TIG unit, however, the inverter offers me an amazing level of puddle control that the transformer unit can't match.My Maxstar 150 STH is very good TIG unit. Set up with a foot pedal and a series 9 torch, a Thermal arc 201 TS is a pretty good unit too. A Hobart EZ TIG 165 would probably be a pretty good unit too.Last edited by Dan; 08-30-2014 at 01:06 AM.ESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Not sure how your estimate for a scratch start set up got so high. Should be able to get a tig torch on ebay for a hundred bucks pretty easy. Leads can be had for a little more than a buck a foot on CL, or ebay as well. After that you need a bottle and a reg. bottles sell on CL here regularly for $100 for a 220cf. $300 should put you in the game.
Reply:If your not welding aluminum you really don't need remote amp control in my opinion. Nor do you need high frequency start. Remote control and hf start just aren't needed to tig weld ferrous metals. Sure they are nice features to have but they are not required. In the industrial world of pipe welding, you never see any of those features, it's all scratch start.Last edited by snoeproe; 08-30-2014 at 07:48 AM.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Well guys, I thought I'd give this a bit of an update. Based on the advice given, I'm going to stick with the Thunderbolt I already have and set it up for scratch-start TIG.Al, (Drf255) was kind enough to hook me up with a "TIG starter kit" for a VERY reasonable price. So, now I've got a torch with the adapter lug, regulator, and some tungstens.Still hunting CL and the local classifieds for an argon tank. With any luck I'll be running some beads soon..."You cannot inspect quality into a product, it must be manufactured into the product."Millermatic 210Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC Blue-Point (Smith) O/A