Time estimate from local shop seems outrageous

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Hey guys,I am trying to get a basic table frame fabricated from 1" steel square tubing and I sent over the specs to a local shop and they quoted me 1 hour for each corner of the frame (basic 4 leg table frame, 3 piece connected corners).  Is this crazy? How long does one corner take to weld and smooth out, no painting or finishing.  How long would this take an experienced welder to do given a capable shop setup? Thanks for the help, new to the forums.
Reply:the shop probably has a minimum charge and it's possible your job isn't a big priority.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:Well I would understand an hour minimum thats fine but my design has 4 corners on the top side of the frame and they said 1 hour each so 4 hours total.  Is it unreasonable to think they would do 4 in an hour?Last edited by Ed Boon; 01-12-2016 at 04:30 PM.Reason: typos
Reply:Sounds about right. One off designs always take longer than mass-production stuff. That's just the way it is.Yes, it's unreasonable to think they're going to do all four corners in one hour. There's more that goes into fabrication than simply striking an arc and running a bead. A lot more.
Reply:The project is for a prototype which would eventually have large orders for the pilot run, am I going about this the wrong way to go to a local shop to get it welded? Is that the best option?  I built a prototype with aluminum tubing with nylon corner connectors but it isn't stable enough and would like to use steel for the actual production run, is welding not a good idea for this type of project? Obviously cost is a concern with margins
Reply:Originally Posted by Ed BoonThe project is for a prototype which would eventually have large orders for the pilot run, am I going about this the wrong way to go to a local shop to get it welded? Is that the best option?  I built a prototype with aluminum tubing with nylon corner connectors but it isn't stable enough and would like to use steel for the actual production run, is welding not a good idea for this type of project? Obviously cost is a concern with margins
Reply:I have not I was going to go in and speak with them about the product but they have quoted me $240 on aluminum which cost me $20 and 4 hours on this steel weld, apparently reasonable, but want to get a few more quotes to see as this is just a proof of concept prototype.  I will see if i can find someone on the forum in my area to help out!
Reply:Are you one of these guys that tell me "it should only take you 5 minutes"?
Reply:Originally Posted by BrianCAre you one of these guys that tell me "it should only take you 5 minutes"?
Reply:Cut, fit, and set up take time.  You want your table square don't you.4 hrs is prolly just a hair on the high side to cover any little issues that may pop up, but I wouldn't call it unreasonable.You are going to pay more for that first one (and the second) than you will for a run of them.  That 4 hrs for the first one could end up being only 10-20 minutes when mass produced in a jig and cut from a bundle of material at a time.Last edited by Boostinjdm; 01-12-2016 at 04:55 PM.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Ed, I do not think that the time quoted is unreasonable but if you still feel it is, ask that if there are more to be made at a later date, what will the charge be then for the next order?  We are assuming the future order is within an agreed upon time limit. This way the fabricator will know that you are sincere about future work.  He looses nothing and you go forward with the future pricing. Bite the bullet for this first one.  Many jobs are presented with the hopes of future work and then no more jobs come in from this customer.  Just my experience, regards, Bob
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmCut, fit, and set up take time.  You want your table square don't you.4 hrs is prolly just a hair on the high side to cover any little issues that may pop up, but I wouldn't call it unreasonable.You are going to pay more for that first one (and the second) than you will for a run of them.  That 4 hrs for the first one could end up being only 10-20 minutes when mass produced in a jig and cut from a bundle of material at a time.
Reply:Originally Posted by rhuntEd, I do not think that the time quoted is unreasonable but if you still feel it is, ask that if there are more to be made at a later date, what will the charge be then for the next order?  We are assuming the future order is within an agreed upon time limit. This way the fabricator will know that you are sincere about future work.  He looses nothing and you go forward with the future pricing. Bite the bullet for this first one.  Many jobs are presented with the hopes of future work and then no more jobs come in from this customer.  Just my experience, regards, Bob
Reply:Yeah, i have experience in soldering wires and its the exact same thing so i figured each weld would be a minute or so.
Reply:Originally Posted by Ed BoonYeah, i have experience in soldering wires and its the exact same thing so i figured each weld would be a minute or so.
Reply:they charge $55/hour
Reply:Originally Posted by Ed BoonYeah, i have experience in soldering wires and its the exact same thing so i figured each weld would be a minute or so.
Reply:yeah true.  I'm perfectly fine with it if that's what it takes, and considering the feedback from you all.  Just wanted to check it was reasonable so this helps, thanks.
Reply:Part of the time issue may also be your design. It may be faster if someone already has the right tooling for example to bend 4 corners on a top piece and make one weld to connect the ends and add 2 U bent legs, then it might be to stick build the whole thing, especially in a production run. This may or may not be the look you want though.I've had plenty of people insist I build something one specific way, when it might have been more efficient or practical for me to do it some other way. In some cases it's quite important the final result ends up exactly how they want it. In others, a few minor small changes wouldn't have mattered to them, but because they insisted it be done their way, it took more time, thus cost more money.Talk to the shop about what you want and expect. Welds ground so you wouldn't know something was welded, and where everything is ready for plating would require a lot more finish time sanding and grinding vs something where they could hit the welds with bondo to deal with small issues and shoot paint. Also as mentioned, a build for production might get set up completely different than one for a one off project..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I agree with DSW, many customers have a set design they want. It could be done another way which could be more efficient and possibly quicker. Post a picture of what you want and see what develops. State your location and there maybe a member from here near you. Maybe rethink the material , are there any other options ?
Reply:Hi, Ed.I sent you a PM.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Rates vary depending on where you are. Around here $55 an hour would be cut throat. I prefer to work on time and materials and any off the wall unusual project where time is impossible to estimate it's the only way I'll work. But some customers are reluctant and insist on a quote which I will only do on simpler straight up stuff that I can estimate. That quote will always be erred in my favor. I'm not doing what I do for my heath, lord knows I am old and beat up. Wish I had the money for jobs I did that took longer than quoted over the years or where the help dogged it and ate up the profit.I have also been asked many times "give me a break, I have tons more work for you", answer: when you bring tons of work we will talk, this one is what it is.I don't think you were unfairly quoted. Look for quality workmanship and make it clear exactly how you want it, pay the price. They will have more respect for you. If the job repeats in quantity they will know what's involved exactly and likely quote accordingly.
Reply:Where are you located? I'd personally figure half hour per corner for 1" square, but would have to see how much needs to be ground down and whatnot.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:I'm located in Atlanta.  Here is a prototype I have put together with aluminum square tubing and nylon corner connector pieces.  I am looking for a steel frame due to the fact that this one is so unstable, and just want to compare. The telescoping legs wouldn't be part of the work as i can do the drilling and assembly of those.
Reply:So you are providing the cut peices, and all they have to do is weld and grind? It would take me an hour to weld, an hour to dress the welds and feather and jitterbug the surfaces. If you don't provide the material add $60. To cut, 5 setups on the saw at $20 each, and $1 per cut. I see what looks to be caps, but I will throw those in for free. You have drawings to work from or is this a verbal adventure? I usually have to spend a half hour conversing face to face with the customer before I am comfortable starting. Are your tolerances tight, or tape measure?At $80/hr. my shop rate that is $160+$60+$100+7=$327. All welded to certified to AWS D1.1.AWS D1.3, or AWS D17.1, your option, and provide a document package for your insurance needs. I will also give you a certificate of my the product liability provision of my General Liability insurance Policy. I will even sign a non-disclosure agreement as part of the price.You start getting into quantity and the prices lower drastically, and I don't care if it ends up in your living room. Last edited by shovelon; 01-12-2016 at 08:31 PM.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.Why am I not surprised that the master fabricators didn't comment on the below?Without any lateral support from leg to leg, no gusseting--all of those legs are 'wild'---IOW takes 3 way fixturing, bracing, etc.to maintain acceptable perpendicularity, squareness and parallelism---doing all of that is easily 4 shop hours or more.….and I do mitered joints whenever possible. If the weld pulling twists or cocks the leg--then it's cut thru the weld, re-positionand try again. -the open 'U' end adds to the complexity of fit up--it will want to open or close, etc.--even with a tacked steel temporary brace.IOW--this no horizontal brace, no gusset design (excepting the 2 horiz. gussets)…is a bear to actually create acceptable perpendicularity, squareness and parallelismThe best money you can spend at this point is $100 or whatever for an hour or two of discussion with a competent, interested fab shopas how to design for manufacturing--since you lack the experience.Inventors with glorious talk of huge volume, $$$ in gazzilions……don't impress guys that have heard the same song and dance a hundred times.The only ones that impress me are the ones that pay retainer fee in advance, etc.I'd no quote this deal in a heartbeat for all of the above.Blackbird
Reply:Expert Garage Hack....https://www.facebook.com/steven.webber.948
Reply:need one of those over my toilet
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonWhy am I not surprised that the master fabricators didn't comment on the below?Without any lateral support from leg to leg, no gusseting--all of those legs are 'wild'---IOW takes 3 way fixturing, bracing, etc.to maintain acceptable perpendicularity, squareness and parallelism---doing all of that is easily 4 shop hours or more.….and I do mitered joints whenever possible. If the weld pulling twists or cocks the leg--then it's cut thru the weld, re-positionand try again. -the open 'U' end adds to the complexity of fit up--it will want to open or close, etc.--even with a tacked steel temporary brace.IOW--this no horizontal brace, no gusset design (excepting the 2 horiz. gussets)…is a bear to actually create acceptable perpendicularity, squareness and parallelismThe best money you can spend at this point is $100 or whatever for an hour or two of discussion with a competent, interested fab shopas how to design for manufacturing--since you lack the experience.Inventors with glorious talk of huge volume, $$$ in gazzilions……don't impress guys that have heard the same song and dance a hundred times.The only ones that impress me are the ones that pay retainer fee in advance, etc.I'd no quote this deal in a heartbeat for all of the above.
Reply:In the Summer I had someone come to me stating she is building custom desk furniture. I guess this is the design of the “future”, not. However sorry to say Ed, you aint gonna beat China, no how no way. Anyway as others have said, there is “always” tons more work if you give me a good deal talk. The person in the summer I was corresponding with and wasted over 3 hours of my time ended up being a mute point. I even machined a die for my hydraulic bender cause she wanted some fancy bent legs using flat stock. I told her the design of the legs has no strength. I even bent up some flat stock in a large half loop to show her (me driving  to her “studio”). Again she did not like my answer. Never heard from her again.  You may be reading these responses and saying to yourself. Wow some of these people sound a little bitter. Well you could say that when someone comes into our shop looking for something and then asks us to do something and they already have the answers laid out for us that they got on the interwebs and even tell us how long something would take (or “it just needs a tack”). Not to sound bitter but I think we are all tired of tire kickers. You would not be asking another shop to do all this work if you had the space, equipment and tools as well as skill to do it. That is what you are paying for not just the labor to perform a task, but it is all balled up in a term everybody calls labor. Also, what is the shop giving up to perform your project where they can be making more money doing something else. This is called opportunity cost. Again. 80% prep and 20% welding.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:A lot of times the customer thinks I am a mind reader. I tell them to put on paper and  then iinitial it. If they balk it means they are not serious and I "No Bid".  Lessens the chance it was not what they wanted and I have to rework on my nickel.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by BrianCAre you one of these guys that tell me "it should only take you 5 minutes"?
Reply:As TJS mentioned 80 % time is prep.  When I retired from structural fabrication one estimator told me that over 75 % of time on a structural job was handling.  Actual welding time was much less than 25 %.  I have seen many jobs go into the negative over cleaning and handling after the welding was all done.  Welding takes so little time :')  In some shops five people will be feeding work to one welder.
Reply:This is uncanny. I just had someone text me who knows someone who knows someone who needs a cast aluminum transmission bracket welded. Broken in half. Crusty as could be with our salt and calcuim chloride roads and has fins too. He text me pics. I told him about 80 bucks to fix it and it may break cause that part does not look to good. He said he could buy a new one for a little more. I told him that is a good call cause that thing looks so corroded I thought it was a zinc from a boat.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:Sometimes a high bid / quote translates to: I really don't want to or don't have time to. But if you insist, I will do it and will cost more than if I really wanted to or had more time.
Reply:Originally Posted by PipelinerSometimes a high bid / quote translates to: I really don't want to or don't have time to. But if you insist, I will do it and will cost more than if I really wanted to or had more time.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanAs TJS mentioned 80 % time is prep.  When I retired from structural fabrication one estimator told me that over 75 % of time on a structural job was handling.  Actual welding time was much less than 25 %.  I have seen many jobs go into the negative over cleaning and handling after the welding was all done.  Welding takes so little time :')  In some shops five people will be feeding work to one welder.
Reply:Ed, case-in-point here....This happened before I got into welding.I bought a utility trailer and there were no places on the outside edges of the bed to hook tie-down straps.  I took it to a local welding shop and had them weld some 1-1/2" angle iron strips on the underside of the bed frame for the tie-down straps to hook to.  I knew the price of the angle iron before hand, so that wasn't a factor.  When I picked it up, they charged me $x.00 for the angle iron and $150 for labor.   Just to weld a few pieces of angle, I thought??????  Well, after I got some experience behind me in welding, I quickly realized that it could have been more.  After prepping the trailer, grinding paint, cutting the angle, etc., getting under the trailer and/or lifting it, welding some of it overhead, I think I got off cheap!!