another broken bale spear

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I got a bale spear from my wife's uncle for free (well, it came with the tractor, anyway).  it is a bolt on type spear that bolts on with u-bolts to a center post of my hay fork.i'm thinking he hasn't used it for quite some time, and probably didn't notice the cracks -- that, or he didn't think that much about them, you know how farmers can be ... either way, it needs fixed before i use it.  luckily, i have some time this year, as i don't expect to be getting any round bales at all.looking for ideas on the best way to fix it.  obviously the base plate is cracked, as is the weld that holds the spear to the base plate.i suppose i could gouge out all the cracks and weld it all back together and grind the back side flat, but to me it seems a better fix to replace the backplate.I have some scrap 1/2" steel plate, but it is just barely borderline almost too small.next post.
Reply:Cut it off and clean the spear up and get new back plate.That's how I'd do it anyway...John
Reply:looks to me like the plate is just about borderline too small ....  not sure.  should i be looking for a bigger plate? I'm pretty well convinced that 1/2" thick is about the thinnest i want to go.  the old plate is thinner than 1/2", but as you can see it didn't exactly hold up.any ideas on the best way to excise the existing broken back plate?  i've got an angle grinder and a die grinder.  wondering if a plasma cutter would make quick work of removal?  i'm sure the shop guys would help me out with the plasma if that would work.thanks in advance for any help or ideas.
Reply:Probably Chinese steel.  There is a reason only domestic steel and bolts are specified in structural applications in the US.
Reply:I'd probably cut it in a band saw after grinding a flat into one of the lower filet welds for the blade to start on.SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:2mins with a .045 cutting wheel on a 4.5" grinder...
Reply:Originally Posted by kingstonProbably Chinese steel.  There is a reason only domestic steel and bolts are specified in structural applications in the US.
Reply:Here's an overview of how I'd do it.I'd cut that plate off at the end, than cut those gussets off.Smooth the outside off, That shaft is solid I'm guessing??Bevel the end down to a 1/2" flat spot or so.Something like this, except your putting plate on one end.Get a piece of plate the right size, whatever that is.Get your holes drilled, and your plate ready to weld onto the shaft.I'd lay the plate on the table and stand the shaft pointing up.Square it up, and tack two sides with a hot 6010-6011.Lay it horizontal in a piece of angle iron, with your flange sticking out to one side.Make sure its square and tack the othersides, if they are off a little, hit them with a hammer while they are hot.Once its square, feather your tacks, and run your first pass.1/8 7018, 130 amps or better.Get a good helper to turn it while you weld, or if you are steady, you can turn it with one hand, and hold your stinger in your otherhand.Just fill it up to full, and your plate will want to pull up, so you might have to clamp it down while its still hot, and let it cool in the clamps.Get some new gussets, you might have to cut the back corner off to clear your filet weld.Weld those on.Paint it!!!Another thought just came to me.If you have a drill bit the same size as your spear/shaft, just punch a hole in your 1/2" plate, and plug weld it from the back, and run a nice filet around the front, and put your gussets on like listed above.IMHO of course.....~John
Reply:Originally Posted by Fnord5Unless you are building the bay bridge in California.
Reply:I suspect the reason it cracked originally was due to the attachment plate being too thin. I think your plan of using a piece of 1/2" plate will work. As others have said, just cut it off and re-attach it. You could also weld a piece of 1" flat bar across the top to prevent it from buckling in the center.
Reply:Cut the base plate and the gussets off so all you have is a spear, looks to be 2 1/2" diameter or so? Get a piece of 5/8 or 3/4 plate same size as the baseplate or a bit bigger and a piece of 2 1/2 x 3 1/2 mechanical tubing 8" long or so and weld and gusset it to the base plate, slide the pole into it and drill a hole thru the sleeve and the pole for a 1/2" bolt as close to the baseplate as possible to lock it in place. At least that's the way I'd do it....Mike
Reply:thanks for all of the suggestions!  lots of ideas to think about.i had not considered punching a hole in the new base plate and welding from both sides.  i don't think i can drill anything that big, but i might be able to cut a hole with the plasma.  as stated, the existing gussets would have to come off to do that, but it might be worth it.looks like i'm shopping for a new baseplate, though.  as stated, maybe even 5/8"+.   trying to figure out a way to make a channel iron work.  having some sectional strength at the top and bottom would be better than just a flat plate.  thinking about maybe 3 channels welded together with the ribs going perpendicular to the direction of lift.... thanks again for all the ideas!  keep them coming!!mike
Reply:You might weld a piece of flat bar on the gussets(and the back plate) to make them into a tee so that the strain is distributed closer to the bolt holes. I would say that is part of why it failed in the first place as well as too light a back plate.---Meltedmetal
Reply:How you fix it kind of depends on how it got broke. If it broke from normal use then a heavier plate might help, if it got jammed into something to break it then more won't help much. I would use what you have since anything outside the bolts doesn't add much strength anyway. I would add an additional triangular gusset as wide as the plate and with the point long enough so when you lay it across the top of the top gusset and below the top bolts it goes down to the spear. This will stiffen the plate and transfer the stress to the bolts better. The tube it's bolted to isn't also bent is it? That happens a lot too.Yeah, I know, but it'll be ok!Lincoln Square wave 255Miller Vintage mig30a spoolgunThermal Dynamics Pacmaster 100xl plasmaSmith mc torchEllis 1600 band saw
Reply:i talked to our CWI and he is getting me a piece of 3/4 plate tomorrow.  the dimensions of the new plate will be roughly the same as the old.as to how it got broke, who knows, knowing my wife's uncle it wasn't from doing something stupid as he is pretty carefull with his stuff for the most part.  that is to say he doesn't beat on his equipment any more than needed.i think i'm going to cut a couple of strips out of my 1/2" plate and make stiffeners for the new 3/4" plate.  weld horizontal stiffeners just outside of the bolt holes to stiffen the plate.  then make a new top stiffener for the spear and tie that into the plate stiffener. i think i'm going to re-use the bottom spear stiffener and tie that into the new plate stiffener for the bottom bolt holes. kind of hard to explain, but it all makes sense in my head haven't decided whether to bore through the new plate and weld from the back or not.  i'm not sure if our shop's plasma will cut 3/4" plate. more than likely i'll just bevel the spear and do a multi-pass fillet weld to the plate.hate to ask too many favors, ya'know.thanks for all the suggestions.if anyone sees a flaw in my idea with the stiffeners, i'm all ears.  I'll probably mock it all up before i weld it and see what you guys think.
Reply:Originally Posted by AKweldshop2mins with a .045 cutting wheel on a 4.5" grinder...
Reply:One quick suggestion. build an identical baseplate and use good bolts to go through baseplate and backer plate. those U-bolts are soft junk, and probably too short now anyways.
Reply:Originally Posted by 12V71One quick suggestion. build an identical baseplate and use good bolts to go through baseplate and backer plate. those U-bolts are soft junk, and probably too short now anyways.
Reply:Originally Posted by MeborderI guess i've never heard u-bolts referred to as "soft junk" but you do make a point.... i.e. that i should at least look at what kind of forces the u-bolts are going to see.
Reply:Not to be a jerk, but...........Make your new plate for the spear.Make an identical plate, set of straps, etc. for the backside.Bolt through the new spear plate into the new back plate using good grade 8 bolts.  Pretty simple actuallyYou don't need huge clamping force to hold the spear in place on the loader, most of the force is in a downwards direction.  The bolts/plates just act as a wedge to keep the spear on the machine.  It just needs to be firmly restrained from sliding down the mounting surface on the loader.  So, you don't need to put a bazillion pounds of torque on the bolts (thus maybe bending the rear plate) to hold it all together"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I mean really  Your original u-bolt didn't break, the plate fatigued"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Gotta agree with samm here.    After years of service it's broken but did not fail completely. That means it needs some strengthening, but a complete redesign or significant additional strength is unnecessary. Not everything needs to be so over done.Yeah, I know, but it'll be ok!Lincoln Square wave 255Miller Vintage mig30a spoolgunThermal Dynamics Pacmaster 100xl plasmaSmith mc torchEllis 1600 band saw
Reply:truck u bolts are stronger than Lance Armstrong check the torque ratings on a Mack spring bogie .  gxbxc
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammNot to be a jerk, but...........Make your new plate for the spear.Make an identical plate, set of straps, etc. for the backside.Bolt through the new spear plate into the new back plate using good grade 8 bolts.  Pretty simple actuallyYou don't need huge clamping force to hold the spear in place on the loader, most of the force is in a downwards direction.  The bolts/plates just act as a wedge to keep the spear on the machine.  It just needs to be firmly restrained from sliding down the mounting surface on the loader.  So, you don't need to put a bazillion pounds of torque on the bolts (thus maybe bending the rear plate) to hold it all together
Reply:Originally Posted by Meborderi understand what you are driving at, but your approach is only about half correct. yes, it needs to be tight enough such that it won't slide, but it also needs to be tight enough that the load won't impart any strain on the bolts (note: strain, not stress).as with any bolted connection, the tension in the bolts should exceed the load that will be placed on them during service.  Which is why i was saying that any bolt in excess of XXX would work. that is to say, that the tension in the bolts would exceed the load imparted on them by the load of the bale.I should post up pictures of the u-bolts, they are pretty messed up ...  both of them are noticeably deformed. yes the plate failed, but did the plate fail because the bolts failed, or did the bolts fail because the plate failed?  why not upgrade both and be sure?I got new u-bolts made today.  They are 5/8-18 grade 8 (sourced from a spring shop that works on the big-rigs).  these should be good for a clamping load of ~20k lbs if torqued to their maximum value (240 ft-lbs).  as you say, they don't need to be that tight. doing a little math shows that 85 ft-lbs on the bolts would provide about 8200 pounds of clamping force per leg of the u-bolt ... or as one might say ... good'n'snug.i'm quite sure it is over built and WAAY over designed .... but i'm a better engineer than i am a welder ... so over design isn't such a bad thing, IMO.to the point about the original u-bolts not failing:not broken, but i'd call it a failure.here's the new ones:MUCH better! (Sorry for the blurry photo, not sure what my camera was trying to focus on ...)wishing i would have gone with 3/4" though.... my proposed design puts them beyond their working limit. (see below)
Reply:Never mind ... i was figuring on only one bolt, which would be beyond the limits of a 5/8 bolt, with two, i'm at about 62% of the ubots maximum clamping load ... should be good.I'm open to any comments. for the math, i figured an 1800 lb bale hanging off the tip of the spear at 3-feet.  with the proposed design, the bolts are 2.25" from the center of the spear which gives me a total load of 14,400 lbs on the top bolts.  should be plenty good for 2 5/8" grade 8 bolts (good for about 23,000 each).should be over-kill of glorious proportions.Last edited by Meborder; 09-07-2014 at 04:28 PM.
Reply:It is for sure if you need some tough U bolt ,truck spring shop is the place to go, and they have those great heavy nuts also.The last time I brought any they charged by the inch of straight rod. gxbxcLast edited by gxbxc; 09-07-2014 at 04:43 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Meborderfor the math, i figured an 1800 lb bale hanging off the tip of the spear at 3-feet.
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireThose are some nice fine thread u-bolts.Realistically the weight is more evenly distributed in use. Your not generally going to hold all the weight at the very tip. At worst it's going to be the first half of the spear which changes the numbers in your favor a lot. Choked up is even better on the spear and the machine lifting. Unless your misusing the spear digging boulders you'll be fine. Considering the old bolts stretched a little but still held tells a lot.
Reply:Get on it and let's see the welding!!
Reply:Originally Posted by AKweldshopGet on it and let's see the welding!!
Reply:You should be able to get hardened u-bolts made up to your specs at any spring shop for relatively short money.
Reply:yep! $30.  grade 8 fine thread 5/8 with hardened washers and nuts.  took the guy 10 minutes. that's $180/hr for those of you keeping track.
Reply:It is just my guess but you have about 30" inches of material in those two so a dollar and inch aint bad with nuts , washers,and labor.
Reply:i think you hit the nail on the head.  as he was mumbling to himself to get the right size, he went back and forth and said "i think you need the 15's" ... so that makes sense.  they are also a rolled thread, which is much preferred to a cut thread.  nice bolts.i got the plate drilled over break.  the bolts fit, but it's really tight.  I used a 5/8" reamer to finish them off, but my marks must have been off about 1/64" or so (not bad for using a tape measure and a fatty marker).  The shop guys were gone today and i couldn't find an 11/16" drill bit to oversize the holes, so i need to find a slightly larger bit.  it's just not going to work the way it is, the threads will end up getting destroyed trying to get the bolts in and out (the one is already hard to turn just from pushing it through by hand). so whether i have to buy a bit, or if the guys have one i can borrow, it's tomorrow before the plate is drilled.anyway ... baby steps.much respect to those of you that could do this project in your sleep (which is most of you, i know).  there's a lot of work that goes into the little details to make it all come together.Last edited by Meborder; 09-08-2014 at 01:12 PM.
Reply:I would have burnt a hole in the tube of the frame you currently have and stick a $70-$125 forged spear in, weld it up and done.  Easier into the bale, easier out of the bale, and stronger.  The reality is it was a cheesy bale spear sold at a hobby farm store probably and advertised to fit every loader under the sun, which is why the spear was clamped on, so you can add as many spears as you want, where you want and cheap.
Reply:Getting like the Space ShuttleAnd after all this  The heat input from the welding will ruin the forged bale spear, and make it brittle AGAIN   Those things should be threaded, and some are, to attach properly.  Welding does a number on them."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Oops, my bad, it looks to be just plain cold roll.  Sorry"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Those things should be threaded, and some are, to attach properly.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammGetting like the Space ShuttleAnd after all this  The heat input from the welding will ruin the forged bale spear, and make it brittle AGAIN   Those things should be threaded, and some are, to attach properly.  Welding does a number on them.
Reply:Originally Posted by cd19All the forged ones I ever been around, including the ones I sell and use are held into a mild steel sleeve by taper fit with a nut on the back.  You weld the sleeve then put the spear in, no worries.
Reply:well that was way more work that it should have been ....after searching all over town for an 11/16" drill bit, i was able to find one at TSC.  I knew it wasn't the greatest bit, but for $15 i should get the job done, right?well on the first hole it drilled about 1/16" deep before giving up and rounding off.  So i sharpened it by hand and got 3 out of the 4 holes enlarged.  on the 4th hole, it got about half way through and just about gave up.  so i turned the drill press speed all the way down and started leaning into it to see if i could get it to bite ... well it did ... ripping the vice out of my hand and bending the bit.  so i got all 4 holes enlarged .... but that was WAY too much work ... and for $15, i'm disappointed in the drill bit.  Not normally the type to complain, i did contact the manufacturer to see if they would make good on their "satisfaction guaranteed" claim on the package ... we'll see.i think i'm finally to the point where i can burn some rod.  we'll see if i get time to work on it tonight or not, i got a few other irons in the fire as well.technical question:when attaching 1/2" steel to 3/4" steel, one should have a 1/2" weld, right?is there a good way to get a 1/2" weld with 1/8" rod in 2 passes?or could i do a 6011 root with 1/8" rod, and cap it with 2 passes of 7014 with 3/32" rod?is a 3/32" rod big enough to weld 1/2" steel?or should i do a 3 pass weld with 1/8" rod and just have way more weld than i need?
Reply:Originally Posted by Meborderwell on the first hole it drilled about 1/16" deep before giving up and rounding off.  So i sharpened it by hand and got 3 out of the 4 holes enlarged.  on the 4th hole, it got about half way through and just about gave up.
Reply:Originally Posted by Meborderwell that was way more work that it should have been ....after searching all over town for an 11/16" drill bit, i was able to find one at TSC.  I knew it wasn't the greatest bit, but for $15 i should get the job done, right?well on the first hole it drilled about 1/16" deep before giving up and rounding off.  So i sharpened it by hand and got 3 out of the 4 holes enlarged.  on the 4th hole, it got about half way through and just about gave up.  so i turned the drill press speed all the way down and started leaning into it to see if i could get it to bite ... well it did ... ripping the vice out of my hand and bending the bit.  so i got all 4 holes enlarged .... but that was WAY too much work ... and for $15, i'm disappointed in the drill bit.  Not normally the type to complain, i did contact the manufacturer to see if they would make good on their "satisfaction guaranteed" claim on the package ... we'll see.i think i'm finally to the point where i can burn some rod.  we'll see if i get time to work on it tonight or not, i got a few other irons in the fire as well.technical question:when attaching 1/2" steel to 3/4" steel, one should have a 1/2" weld, right?is there a good way to get a 1/2" weld with 1/8" rod in 2 passes?or could i do a 6011 root with 1/8" rod, and cap it with 2 passes of 7014 with 3/32" rod?is a 3/32" rod big enough to weld 1/2" steel?or should i do a 3 pass weld with 1/8" rod and just have way more weld than i need?
Reply:I'd likely do it with 1/8" 7018 also. Three pass. What rods do you have on hand? I'm sure another rod could be used... but I only have 7018 on hand. Post a picture of your root pass when you get it done. The cover pass won't mean much if the root is poor.
Reply:Drilling out a 5/8 hole with 11/16 bit is tough. I would have used a die grinder or a round file.Millermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:i've got 6011 of all sizes up to 1/8, 6013 of all sizes up to 1/8, 7014 of all sizes up to 1/8.I'm AC only, so 7018 is out.i did try some hobart 3/32 7018AC, and it wouldn't even hold an arc on my machine, so its really 7014 or nothing.for the spear my plan was a root of 1/8" 6011 with the welder set to kill, and 2 passes on top with 7014.  for the 1/2" gussets i might 3 pass with 1/8" 7014, but that seems like a lot of weld for 1/2" steel, which is why i was asking about using 3/32" 7014.thanks for all the help and suggestions so far.no welding on it tonight.making the wife a compost barrel instead.  welding hinges on a 55gal drum .. fun!
Reply:Originally Posted by Meborderi've got 6011 of all sizes up to 1/8, 6013 of all sizes up to 1/8, 7014 of all sizes up to 1/8.I'm AC only, so 7018 is out.i did try some hobart 3/32 7018AC, and it wouldn't even hold an arc on my machine, so its really 7014 or nothing.for the spear my plan was a root of 1/8" 6011 with the welder set to kill, and 2 passes on top with 7014.  for the 1/2" gussets i might 3 pass with 1/8" 7014, but that seems like a lot of weld for 1/2" steel, which is why i was asking about using 3/32" 7014.thanks for all the help and suggestions so far.no welding on it tonight.making the wife a compost barrel instead.  welding hinges on a 55gal drum .. fun!
Reply:lincoln makes a 7018 ac rod available at home depot and lowes, or menards depending on where you are