What Would You Charge For These???

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A good friend who owns a Tree Service Co. approached me to fabricate 2 fuel cap locks. This was an interesting project. These are for a chipper and a stump grinder. I started with 4 1/2" pipe ...1/4" wall. The caps are 18 ga. tig welded on. I took precise measurements on the filler necks below the cap threads. This was done to give a good tight fit with minimal movement and to accommodate the rubber on the bottom of the lock.....the chipper has a plastic tank. I then cut the holes and machined the hole to size on my lathe. The hole unit was then cut in half. hinges were made from 1/2" bar stock with 1/4" pins and thick washers cut to size. The pieces for the padlock were 1/2" x 1" flat stock. These fit well and should work well too. Just don't know what to charge.  Last edited by rahtreelimbs; 01-14-2015 at 08:46 PM.
Reply:How many hours of work?
Reply:Looks good.  Nice work...These are always hard, because if you add up the materials and labor for a one off custom piece like that, it's probably going to be more than they would want to pay.Checkout my youtube channel:  http://www.youtube.com/turbocobra
Reply:Got any trees needing trimming? Since you said it was for a good friend might be better to trade, or ask him what he is willing to pay.Mike
Reply:I have about 8 to 10 hours on these. That may seem high but I was very methodical and efficient......at least I think so. I don't like cutting corners and always strive for quality. Yes these were a on-off type deal and I doubt he could have had these made cheaply from shops charging $75 + per hour. I also made several trips up where he stores his equipment for proper fitting.
Reply:Originally Posted by leightrepairsGot any trees needing trimming? Since you said it was for a good friend might be better to trade, or ask him what he is willing to pay.Mike
Reply:Originally Posted by turbocobraLooks good.  Nice work...These are always hard, because if you add up the materials and labor for a one off custom piece like that, it's probably going to be more than they would want to pay.
Reply:Originally Posted by AntiblingTime+materials is what I charge for any custom fabrication.  Most fab jobs though I'm able to give an estimate.
Reply:Originally Posted by rahtreelimbsI have about 8 to 10 hours on these. That may seem high but I was very methodical and efficient......at least I think so. I don't like cutting corners and always strive for quality. Yes these were a on-off type deal and I doubt he could have had these made cheaply from shops charging $75 + per hour. I also made several trips up where he stores his equipment for proper fitting.
Reply:Originally Posted by rahtreelimbsA good friend who owns a Tree Service Co. approached me to fabricate 2 fuel cap locks. This was an interesting project. These are for a chipper and a stump grinder. I started with 4 1/2" pipe ...1/4" wall. The caps are 18 ga. tig welded on. I took precise measurements on the filler necks below the cap threads. This was done to give a good tight fit with minimal movement and to accommodate the rubber on the bottom of the lock.....the chipper has a plastic tank. I then cut the holes and machined the hole to size on my lathe. The hole unit was then cut in half. hinges were made from 1/2" bar stock with 1/4" pins and thick washers cut to size. The pieces for the padlock were 1/2" x 1" flat stock. These fit well and should work well too. Just don't know what to charge.
Reply:I know what I charge per hour, and if I have someone a bill for 8 hrs for those I would not expect them to be happy.   I think the reality is they are going to get tossed around, lost, etc and you might have spent more time than you should have making them super nice.  Mig instead of tig would save time, I guess people tig to be cool sometimes but I would have just buzzed them on with mig.  Other thing is we do not know what equipment you have.  If you have a hacksaw and chisel it would take a long time, but your hourly rate should reflect your equipment and ability.
Reply:Looks like a fifth wheel lock, it may cause delay but the bad guys may also feel like cutting the plastic fill neck or cause other damage to the equipment to get the fuel.fuel price going down could be a deterrent too...while it last.If the customer asked for a lock of this type i'm not sure he expected to spend more than 75.$ each. How much would YOU pay for them? What is the value, not the price, of the fuel in his location and what kind of losses the customer encounter when he arrive on site to empty machines.
Reply:If he is a good friend.  Tell him $50, but he'd better not lose them.  Cuz you won't be building any more.My name's not Jim....
Reply:i think the time for a price quote or ballpark estimate is before you start. 8-10 hours pay for those might put a strain on the friendship. if it was me i would give them to your friend gratis and chalk it up to a business lesson.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:I could likely make those in less than an hour to a drawing (so not including trips to measure, however you should have been able to make them to his measurements for neck diameter and cap height, so no travel needed). I would likely charge $75 for the pair. On another note, I can get those off when locked in under 10 seconds without a key, as can any thief worth his salt.
Reply:Good friends are hard to come by, see If he would trade favor for favor. See is he could help you on something you need help with. I have a real close friend that I build stuff for and I never charge him, He is always willing to help me if I ask
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugIt took you 8-10 hours?? You're fired!
Reply:The bottom line is the relationship you have with your friend when it comes to business.  If it's all one package then hand them over to him with your blessings.  But if business is business and friendship is something else then a time and material charge is appropriate.We're remodeling our master bath and the marble guy is a casual friend.  I didn't question his bid, didn't even get another quote.  So when he described a tool he would like to have made I made him four copies.  It was a little less than an hour and the materials were on hand.  I'm charging him a $100.00 because business is business.  If he questions the bill he will have crossed a bridge he will never see again.life is good
Reply:I'll spend a little money on a friend, but I'll spend a lot of my time for a friend. Take that for what it is worth.GravelThe difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
Reply:Those look great. If you remember the show American chopper , the complaint was about how long designing and building took. It takes time to design ,measure and build.Gravels comments are spot on.
Reply:While I'm new on the welding side of things, when I look at programming projects, engineering or wood working, I often will do something under cost for a few reasons.  Efficiency or lack thereof: I really enjoyed it, so I found that I didn't approach it like a business.  Or I hated it and procrastinated, I guess.    Either way, I wasted time on the things that didn't really bring much value to the end user.Skill building: It taught me something and possibly I was slower than I should have been, because I had not learned that before.  I can't charge them hours for that.  It is something that I will recoup in the future based on skills learned.Friendship or Relationship: They have done right by me on things that should have cost more or I hope by doing this they will.  Or just friendship in general.I was stupid: I totally missed both the cost and effort it was going to take to complete it.Last edited by sacherjj; 01-15-2015 at 10:52 AM.Reason: Adding the last option.AHP AlphaTIG 200DX (2nd Gen)Lincoln WeldPak 3200HD Bird Poop GeneratorLotos LTP5000D Plasma Cutter
Reply:Originally Posted by GravelI'll spend a little money on a friend, but I'll spend a lot of my time for a friend. Take that for what it is worth.
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerI could likely make those in less than an hour to a drawing (so not including trips to measure, however you should have been able to make them to his measurements for neck diameter and cap height, so no travel needed). I would likely charge $75 for the pair. On another note, I can get those off when locked in under 10 seconds without a key, as can any thief worth his salt.
Reply:Tough situation.  For T&M you are looking at 9 hours @ say $60/hr=  $540Materials, rod, gas, electricity, etc= $50Total before tax= $590So it's doubtful the customer will pay the actual value of the work and you are likely going to come up on the short end of the stick.  So chalk it up to helping a friend and hopefully some day he will pay you back.  My guess is that somebody makes a lockable cap like that which sells for less then $50.  But I doubt they are anywhere close to as nice as yours.  Nice work!
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugIt took you 8-10 hours?? You're fired!Another way to determine their value:How much fuel won't be stolen because they are in place. Tough task, I'm sure. My usual thing for a one-off that I've never done before is to make the friend pay for materials and I do the work as a learning experience.We both win.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Nice work.
Reply:Before I finished reading this whole thread, I figured what is going to happen to one or both of these at some time. An absent minded employee is going to refuel the equipment and drive off with it without putting the locks back on, and they will be LOST along the raod somewhere. It may should have a piece of sash chain added to it that can be attached to the equipment it goes on to prevent this.Other than that, it looks like you done real good on the fabrication of these pieces. Like someone said though, it won't take long to get the lock off of those. I could do it in 5-6 seconds with only a 8" cresent wrench. No bolt cutter needed.
Reply:$124.00 retail.http://www.raneystruckparts.com/pete...FRSIfgodyW0ACQEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Like said above just ask the buddy how many gallons of fuel he thinks it will save then just tell him he can pay you 1/2 of what it's worth.    Then again I usually tell my friends I will bend them over on the next one.  They usually pay me more than I would have asked after that statement.
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauLike someone said though, it won't take long to get the lock off of those. I could do it in 5-6 seconds with only a 8" cresent wrench. No bolt cutter needed.
Reply:[QUOTE=FORTEALLOY;5269881]Voice of experience??  LOL, just kidding. Been there, done that.  Anything can be compromised, but most of the time a thief will pick an easier target. Nicely built project.QUOTE]Yep, I have easily removed several with an 8" cresent wrench. Used a pair of channel locks the same way as the cresent.
Reply:The cap covers looks great! As mentioned, they may just puncture the tank.Maybe you could fab up hidden fuel tanks for him and he can fill the factory tanks with water for the SOB's to steal...Old stories about farmers who would label the diesel tanks as "Gasoline" then find the fuel thief a couple miles down the road when their car started sucking on the diesel.DB
Reply:There is a company that makes exactly these. I cannot for the life of me find it. I thought i saved a pic it might be on my other computer.
Reply:Originally Posted by rahtreelimbsThere was no drawing. .....he said "I need these" and I took it from there........5 seconds on the lock with a bolt cutter..
Reply:I wouldn't call 8 hours "efficient", but if you had fun making them....
Reply:"Perception of Security"Back in 1981 I was a field tech for a banking equipment company. One of my jobs was to break into safe deposit boxes that the owner had lost the key, contents siezed, etc. I was required to make it look as hard as possible. Destroy the lock, spring the hinges and make sure the cusomer's box was damaged.All because there had to be witnesses.Most of us techs agreed it could be done in under a minute.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by labparamourOld stories about farmers who would label the diesel tanks as "Gasoline" then find the fuel thief a couple miles down the road when their car started sucking on the diesel.DB
Reply:Good friend= No charge.Now I lay me down to sleep, by the bed a Colt I do keep.Should I wake and find you inside, a coroner van is your next ride.
Reply:Just tell him to purchase an appropriate sized container of your beverage of choice. I've done numerous small welding jobs for a can of Coca Cola.Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:I don't know this guy's business, but we used to own a tree business.  The idea of these caps would deter MOST criminals.  I say most because a lot of times if we had a big job that we would be there over a day, equipment got left at the site, or if we were in another town (rural area) they were left there.  Other than that they were always pulled into a building.  In smaller areas people are stealing because they are lazy.  If they're driving around, see equipment sitting around, they'll go siphon gas.  Punching holes or trying to break in is far too much work for most of them.  I know in the bigger cities you got career criminals but it's not the case everywhere yet.
Reply:I don't think you would have spent time going back and forth for a regular customer. I think in a way you took it as a challenge to come up with a good solution. Ask the friend what he thinks they're worth. A true friend who appreciates the time it took will give you a reasonable number like say $200-$300. If he says some low ball number like $50, let him find someone else to do any further custom fab jobs for him.
Reply:Charge top hourly rate if you produce them in production quantities. You can't really charge top hourly rates if it's a one-off thing and there's a huge learning curve as it's the first one ever made (unless it was explicitly a custom fabrication hourly deal from the getgo). If you had to make 50 of them in a production environment, with laser cut flat stock parts, and simple jigs, how long would it take to make each one... somewhere around 30 mins - 1 hour? in this scenario you could charge top hourly rate +laser+material. In full production I think they should definitely be under $100, even if they're stainless and fully tigged.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:I'd give it to him, and ask him cut your trees, or owe you a favor.
Reply:Typically I find that the first time that I make something takes me the longest. Especially when you consider the making of jigs/templates for future builds. After that, the efficiency usually picks up. Good friend, you got to get some seat time in.. Consider this when charging him, put a good buddy favor in the bank and it will probably return one day when you need it most.-Niche