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My local Praxair dealer gave me this Arcair H3 torch tonight when I was in for other consumables. It is vintage 1986 and was in pieces inside the box but new. I'm thinking the torch was robbed for parts many years ago but everything was in the box before I put it back together according to the parts breakdown sheet.I've never really seen one of these used and am wondering if they have been surpassed by plasma, or are still viable?Thanks,SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:They are so obsolete that you should send it to me for proper disposal Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Junk, send it to me.Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:Originally Posted by AKweldshopJunk, send it to me.
Reply:Originally Posted by SlobMy local Praxair dealer gave me this Arcair H3 torch tonight when I was in for other consumables. It is vintage 1986 and was in pieces inside the box but new. I'm thinking the torch was robbed for parts many years ago but everything was in the box before I put it back together according to the parts breakdown sheet.I've never really seen one of these used and am wondering if they have been surpassed by plasma, or are still viable?Thanks,
Reply:Put a whip air hose on there if you plan on just clamping to the stinger. I arced out a few couplers before doing that.
Reply:Plasma replace CAC ...Not yet    I do both but my PM-45 cannot get into spots where a carbon will and cac running a 5/16 carbon will remove more metalPlasma is more surgical and can be used on aluminum and stainless without carbon  contamination issuesi would say send it to me but i already have 2 cac's..1 profax & 1 arcair K-4000Backed my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Thanks guys. I really didn't know anything about this but it's comical about the deal. I was talking about replacing my leads on my Hobart machine and going to scrap the old ones once stripped down bare. They found this on a back shelving rack literally covered in dust, opened it and seen it in pieces and decided it could go in my copper scrap pile so they saved it. Not ever seeing one before, and having the parts breakdown sheet readily revealed every single piece was in the box so I put it back together and snapped the photos. I suppose I'll have to try it out after gathering up some electrodes. Certainly looks an interesting and simple contraption so a new toy to play with.After posting up the photos I started to read the enclosed literature and I remember the company being downtown, (St. Louis, MO) but was too young then to know what they did. From this literature it seems these are quite versatile in several uses. I'll give it a shot having nothing planned for the weekend but cleaning the shop, (oh joy).......It doesn't appear this thing uses a lot of current to do it's job and I have about 35' of 2/0 welding cable left over from my little job so I'm wondering if it'd be a good idea to make up an electrical extension to give more reach, (has 7' cable now) and then run an air hose from the air source? I still have some 2/0 cable quick disconnects so could make it easy if the idea is sound. Another thought as far as application: My semi trailer is made from 14X26#ft beam with a 3/4" strip welded to the bottom flange. This is beginning to spread from rust and I'd like to remove the strip from the beam flanges, roll the trailer over to sandblast clean, then install a new tension strip. Would this arc air torch do this to cut out the stitch welds? I'll post up a photo tomorrow when out to the shop.I had not noticed the grooved tab in the handle had the air blast holes and am glad you mentioned it. I could see it readily swiveled for setting angle but really hadn't thought about air flow.Thanks,Last edited by Slob; 12-12-2014 at 10:17 PM.SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:Actually, it takes quite a bit of amperage to do any real work.  I've used mine, gouging out cracks or welds with a Bobcat 225.  But it was with relatively small carbons, and the machine was maxxed out.  Air wise, I've used a 185cfm diesel compressor, but I've also used my shop compressor with good results.  I have on jobsites used a gas powered twin tank portable compressor.  If you had enough amps to run larger carbons, it PROBABLY wouldn't keep up.  After you get used to it, you can be pretty surgical in metal removal.  I can do pretty well with a gouging tip on a torch, but cleanup is easier with the carbon arc.  I suggest wearing hearing protection when using it.  And don't use it around flammable materials.  It rains fire...  I wish I had 3 phase in my shop, I've got a Lincoln R3R 400 that I think would run it great.  I don't know that I'd be able to make myself run it off of my SA200... Probably just stay with the gouging tips as opposed to that.  I've heard too many horror stories of how hard they are on a machine...-------------------------Chemetron AC/DC 300 HFSnap-On MM300L Lincoln SP140 Lincoln AC/DC 225g Lincoln SA200 Lincoln SA200 Miller Bobcat 225GVictor torchesH&M and Mathey beveling machinesMcElroy Plastic pipe fusion
Reply:And as far as the welds on your trailer you're talking about, if you have acces to them, it'll work great.-------------------------Chemetron AC/DC 300 HFSnap-On MM300L Lincoln SP140 Lincoln AC/DC 225g Lincoln SA200 Lincoln SA200 Miller Bobcat 225GVictor torchesH&M and Mathey beveling machinesMcElroy Plastic pipe fusion
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Plasma replace CAC ...Not yet    I do both but my PM-45 cannot get into spots where a carbon will and cac running a 5/16 carbon will remove more metalPlasma is more surgical and can be used on aluminum and stainless without carbon  contamination issuesi would say send it to me but i already have 2 cac's..1 profax & 1 arcair K-4000
Reply:5/16 carbons is all i can run at 302 amps DCRP compressor running at 17 cfm on a screw compressorear plugs are a must and not because of noise leathers and glovesand it is excellent for removing stitch weldsBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:kill,Not bad for just work'n off a 302.   I like about 450 - 475 on a 3/8 carbon at 20+cfm on a 500 (or 600) Miller AirPak for getting things done.
Reply:Are these things supposed to shut the air flow off completely or do they tend to bleed air a little when not in use? This one slightly bleeds and I've had it back apart, lubed the seals and cup, and it still leaks a little. I've not used it yet, just wanted to get it setup to use.Also, and only from pictures, do you consume the arc rod in use or replace it when the tip is worn/burned away? I've seen several different lengths and suppose that is for reach to blow out welds? Questions, questions, questions I know, but I actually enjoy learning something new.Thanks,Last edited by Slob; 12-13-2014 at 11:31 AM.SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:slob,Pretty much every one of them I've had in my hand tended to leak air a little bit even when the button is pushed close.   The rod gets consumed as you go.   Start out with the rod sticking out past the holder around 6 to 8 inches.   Keeping advancing it out as it burns back.   The air holes need to be positioned so that the air comes out underneath the rod behind the arc (and blowing in the direction of travel).Here's some more info on it you might find helpful.http://www.red-d-arc.com/pdf/Air%20C...ing%20Data.pdfLeather up good and use double ear protection (plugs and muffs).   Don't screw a male air fitting right into the power block.   Get a short 12 to 18 inch air hose to screw into the power block and put the male quick disconnect out on the end of it.   That will keep your air connection fitting electrically cold so it won't arc out on what you're working on.Looking at the equipment you've got listed it doesn't look like you've got all that big of a power source so I'd suggest you start out with smaller carbons like 3/16.Last edited by HT2-4956; 12-13-2014 at 12:07 PM.
Reply:Mine leaks air like mad. Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:If you've got a bunch of gouging that needs done and don't have a big enough machine you can always parallel two smaller ones.   Here's how you go about doing that safely.http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/Paralleling.pdf
Reply:Originally Posted by SlobAre these things supposed to shut the air flow off completely or do they tend to bleed air a little when not in use? This one slightly bleeds and I've had it back apart, lubed the seals and cup, and it still leaks a little. I've not used it yet, just wanted to get it setup to use.Also, and only from pictures, do you consume the arc rod in use or replace it when the tip is worn/burned away? I've seen several different lengths and suppose that is for reach to blow out welds? Questions, questions, questions I know, but I actually enjoy learning something new.Thanks,
Reply:Don't forget a good respirator, That is some nasty smoke plus producing a bit of carbon monoxide. A big fan is a good thing to make sure you're getting good air.
Reply:Your Hobart's will run 1-4" if the engine is solid.They take a LOT of air to get the best result. They make flat carbons as well. You should be able to run a 5-32" x 3-8" carbon with your machine. The flats work better for certain things like washing beads off the surface. Your gouge will take roughly the shape of the carbon you use.
Reply:Some gouging related pics...Old forward liner plate in a haul truck bed coming out.   Ready for the crane to hook on to them before taking out the last couple of feet of weld holding them on.Normally I kind of like to gouge but taking this grid work of flat bar off the tail board of this bed was an absolutely miserable job (lots of blow back).   IIRC two of us worked for around a day and a half to get it all off.
Reply:The haul truck photos are much like we used to see around here but I never seen the operation being performed. Always kinda wondered how you would cut the welds out of an inner, (liner) and not got through the outer. In the body shop it was always with slice wheels and control the depth manually. I can tell from you folk's instructions and experience I'm going to like having this tool for certain.Here are a few photos of my semi trailer when I rebuilt the front end:I cut out all the old using a rivet washing tip to not destroy the outer rails which remained in place on the neck. The trailer belonged to a former landscaper and the neck was packed with mud at least eight inches deep. The main rails were rusted through terribly and the 5th wheel plate was paper thin. Wish I would have had this thing then...... Damned hard to do this type of work without a helper.SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:Done a few of those. Torch all the crap metal off a little ways away from the rail then arc the remainder off. I usually lay scrap boards underneath and use the freefall technique when cutting out the garbage.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DDone a few of those. Torch all the crap metal off a little ways away from the rail then arc the remainder off. I usually lay scrap boards underneath and use the freefall technique when cutting out the garbage.
Reply:Been there, good times. BTW airarc is really slick for taking off those stainless Huck fasteners they use on aluminum rails.Originally Posted by M J DBeen there, good times. BTW airarc is really slick for taking off those stainless Huck fasteners they use on aluminum rails.
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd115/16 carbons is all i can run at 302 amps DCRP compressor running at 17 cfm on a screw compressorear plugs are a must and not because of noise leathers and glovesand it is excellent for removing stitch welds
Reply:SlobI should follow you around - you 'scored'.In traditional welding shops/old-school [stick/wire/torch] a CAC was an essential/standard tool.If you did not have CAC capacity - in shop and field - you could not run with the 'fast dogs'.Even today - for structural steel and heavy equipment - CAC separates - the 'men from the boys'.Hyperbole aside:This is not a complex tool, and it is not difficult to operate.  It only requires adequate: amperage,and CFM.  By design: this tool is for disarticulation [not destruction] and mastery requires finesse.Don't try to learn this tool's function on your own.  In your net-work of welding associates - seek a 'one-on-one' tutorial from a accomplished practitioner.Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by Slob. I was talking about replacing my leads on my Hobart machine and going to scrap the old ones once stripped down bare. Thanks,
Reply:Thanks guys for the comments. I've always tried to take care of people and usually they reciprocate as this thing has been. It may not be right away, but a good majority of folks do like being kind to others if they're not being taken advantage of.I spent a lot of time watching youtube videos of air arcing last evening till my wife slapped me upside the head and said it's time for bed. I finished up watching Lanse cut a trailer hitch and rear bumper from an F-350 that was a less than stellar install by the prior owner. You guys are right these things really shower sparks everyplace. I've been looking on ebay for electrodes to use as a learning tool for familiarity before purchasing a bulk order. I see round, pointed, and flat carbons and wonder if I could get an explanation as to what electrode excels at what task? MJD mentioned the washing heads from "Huck" fasteners using flat types so I can see an application such as removing bolt heads and such, but the pointed vs. round ends baffle me as both electrodes are going to be consumed during operation. To the Count: I had to not consider trying to repair those leads as with gloved hands could pull a three foot length of insulation from the cables without slitting the jacket at all. It was that rotten from sun exposure since 1965. I use a lot of adhesive lined shrink tube at work and it is a bit more stiff to use that the original EPDM rubber based insulation used on welding cables. The 2/0 I replaced this with should outlast me citing even if I replace the welder, I'll keep the leads. I don't know the value of scrap copper but if I get 25% of the cost of the new cable back, I'll be more than happy. The new "Flexaprene" cable was $2.10 per foot, (supplier's cost) and I ordered/paid for 250ft, but the roll came just short of 285' so have a little extra for repairs, or such. I really don't know how or why that happened unless it was an end of spool drop from their supplier?SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:Slob, I've never used or seen flats, so cant help you on that one. Also don't know if flats would work in the jaws of your torch. Those jaws are meant to hold round. You will find as you use it that you can also use the side of the rod at the tip to scarf flat. No reason to get pointed rods, the rod will shape itself to what it wants depending on amps, speed, and depth of cut. I don't know where you're located, but if it would be anywhere around central In. I would be delighted to help you get started. I also got a case of 1/4 rods, and would gladly share if you got enough machine to pull em. I also don't know what you mean by buying bulk, but you will be surprised how long a box of rods last.        ChuckTo ride, shoot straight, and speak the truth. This was the ancient law of youth. Old times are past, old days are done, but the law runs true oh little son.Winpower 180 DCSA-200 redfaceXMT-304
Reply:Originally Posted by SlobTo the Count: I had to not consider trying to repair those leads as with gloved hands could pull a three foot length of insulation from the cables without slitting the jacket at all. It was that rotten from sun exposure since 1965. I use a lot of adhesive lined shrink tube at work and it is a bit more stiff to use that the original EPDM rubber based insulation used on welding cables. The 2/0 I replaced this with should outlast me citing even if I replace the welder, I'll keep the leads. I don't know the value of scrap copper but if I get 25% of the cost of the new cable back, I'll be more than happy. The new "Flexaprene" cable was $2.10 per foot, (supplier's cost) and I ordered/paid for 250ft, but the roll came just short of 285' so have a little extra for repairs, or such. I really don't know how or why that happened unless it was an end of spool drop from their supplier?
Reply:Pointed carbon refers to a small portion that isn't copper coated. I can asure you the jaw will accommodate any carbon you will use, that's why the jaw is stepped. Your mm machines are in the roughly 300 amp range. I would go with a box of .25" round pointed and a box of 5-32x 3-8" flat. Those 2 sizes will run pretty well with 300 amps, but more is better  They also make half round and square but have never really seen a need for them. One other thing to remember is the whole electrode is electrically hot so you have to be careful around obstructions. In its proper operation its like a loud hot pencil eraser.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DPointed carbon refers to a small portion that isn't copper coated. I can asure you the jaw will accommodate any carbon you will use, that's why the jaw is stepped. Your mm machines are in the roughly 300 amp range. I would go with a box of .25" round pointed and a box of 5-32x 3-8" flat. Those 2 sizes will run pretty well with 300 amps, but more is better  They also make half round and square but have never really seen a need for them. One other thing to remember is the whole electrode is electrically hot so you have to be careful around obstructions. In its proper operation its like a loud hot pencil eraser.
Reply:Flat carbons are one the best things to avoid grinding. A lot of times I'll torch or plasma as close as I can get so there's like a less than 1-4" stub left on the metal. Then take a flat carbon and wash it away. Works really well to keep sparks from blowing back.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DFlat carbons are one the best things to avoid grinding. A lot of times I'll torch or plasma as close as I can get so there's like a less than 1-4" stub left on the metal. Then take a flat carbon and wash it away. Works really well to keep sparks from blowing back.
Reply:My G-213 welder is 200 Ampere DC @100% duty cycle, and the G-213 is 250 Ampere DC@60%. The former says 220 Amperes, and the latter has 450 Amperes on the respective dials. I've asked in the past about the higher printed ratings and several have responded the machines will output much more than their supplied ratings, but with a significant reduction in duty cycle. I won't knowingly abuse either of these machines as they have no overcurrent protection I've found. They are both very sound mechanically and maybe there is some internal thermal switch, but IIRC it is not shown on the electrical prints for either machine.Another thing I seen while watching the videos is that nobody seems to carry a long consistent arc, (meaning time). All seemed to break the arc quite a bit and needed to restart. Is this nature of the beast, or just video quality? It would seem if cutting on a relatively clean substrate, the arc and gouging action should be continuous? Thanks,SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:Slob, the best price I've found for carbon's is from weldingsupply.com. They have Arcair and also a house brand which is even more economical. As far as leads, Electron Beam Technology has a great product, at the lowest price I've found.For some reason, I cannot attach the pdf of the Arcair Handbook. It's a great resource, so if you want it, PM me your email and I will get it right to you."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Its probably more operated than anything. Not sure how popular it is anymore but at one time it was automated for beveling sheets. With practice and a steady hand you should be able to make a fairly long gouge. Unless your cutting up buckets or big frames your actual arc time probably won't be very long. For example cutting off a Huck takes just a second or 2.
Reply:Originally Posted by SlobMy G-213 welder is 200 Ampere DC @100% duty cycle, and the G-213 is 250 Ampere DC@60%. The former says 220 Amperes, and the latter has 450 Amperes on the respective dials. I've asked in the past about the higher printed ratings and several have responded the machines will output much more than their supplied ratings, but with a significant reduction in duty cycle. I won't knowingly abuse either of these machines as they have no overcurrent protection I've found. They are both very sound mechanically and maybe there is some internal thermal switch, but IIRC it is not shown on the electrical prints for either machine.Another thing I seen while watching the videos is that nobody seems to carry a long consistent arc, (meaning time). All seemed to break the arc quite a bit and needed to restart. Is this nature of the beast, or just video quality? It would seem if cutting on a relatively clean substrate, the arc and gouging action should be continuous? Thanks,
Reply:Here's Victors guide to Air Carbon Arc gouging.   http://victortechnologies.com/IM_Upl...August2013.pdf
Reply:This is at the very beginning of taking this bucket apart for rebuilding.
Reply:I'm coming up with the same conclusions of being on the low end of needs with this larger Hobart machine. No real problem to start out with however and if I can rustle up enough work, will have no problem getting something much larger. I've never been one to put the cart in front of the horse so the justification will have to be there before I'll spring higher. Predominantly I'll be looking to cut out stitch welds only to repair/replace sections of whatever is needing attention so the duty cycle consideration is a reduced threat factor I'm hoping. Of course not having a firm plan in place for the unclear market I'm chasing leaves a lot of variables to compensate for along the way. I suppose I do have the realization profitability is not near as paramount as not operating at a loss, (which I won't do) so if this is kept as a part time hobby with growth possibility, it will be alright.SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:I was kind of curious about this thing, not knowing anything about them, how they operate or what they're used for.  But after watching the video, it's clear the wife is not going to like seeing one of these running in the driveway.  Did anyone else notice the guy in the background at around minute 2:00 - 2:07 where he turns around and notices the open can of (I'm guessing) acetone and quickly replaces the cap?   Originally Posted by killdozerd115/16 carbons is all i can run at 302 amps DCRP compressor running at 17 cfm on a screw compressorear plugs are a must and not because of noise leathers and glovesand it is excellent for removing stitch welds
Reply:This is a burning bar and not a carbon air arc gouger these guys are using to try and remove a big pin.   I'm guessing both these guys have their leather man panties on because they're dealing with some serious blow back.
Reply:Originally Posted by RodJI was kind of curious about this thing, not knowing anything about them, how they operate or what they're used for.  But after watching the video, it's clear the wife is not going to like seeing one of these running in the driveway.  Did anyone else notice the guy in the background at around minute 2:00 - 2:07 where he turns around and notices the open can of (I'm guessing) acetone and quickly replaces the cap?
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Wasn't anything like that out there ...he was bending tubing and making mounts for off road truck bumper/brush guard... i have no idea what the can was about...most likely water as he was cutting parts with an abrasive sawweldorwes was running my TB with the CAC and i was doing the video and we did it at night to show people how far and wide it sprays sparks and metalWe do these weld o rama things for newbies and hobby people so they can see and learn the different processes
Reply:Carbon arc gouging is a nice process......but those that say it is better than plasma arc gouging from a metal removal rate perspective......need to try a Hypertherm Powermax85, Powermax105 or the ultimate...a Powermax125 with the air gouging.  The Powermax85 (85 amps) has a faster metal removal rate than 300 amps of carbon arc. The 125 is faster and far easier to use s compared to 600 amps with carbon arc. Carbon arc has an advantage with clearance.....getting into tight spots, but plasma today is much faster, less fumes, less noise, less power.....and no cost for carbon rod.While the Hypertherm systems offer gouging nozzles down as low as 45 amps, you need to have at least 85 amps to get productive.Jim Colt
Reply:I love gouging with my Hypertherm 1250! But I can control the depth better with a carbon arc.Here is a weld I took out with the 1250. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Alright, I just gotta ask cause the question came to mind: Would I be better upping my proposed purchase of a Powermax 65 plasma to either of the larger plasma machines mentioned and put to rest my unassurance of possibly needing to replace my older Hobart machine at an accelerated pace? I don't know the pricing on a Powermax 85 or higher, but the Powermax 65 I've verbally agreed to make purchase of was not out of my startup budget.I can't remember if the larger units were convertible from single to three phase input or not, but I'm thinking either would still run from my 15kw Onan genset.Then again I may need to forego my earlier established criteria of single phase input power requirement.Thanks,SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....