sa 200 mag problems

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I have a sa200 it is a 1950 sum model. The problem I am having is once I put the mag on the machine I lose all fire???  While the mag is on the bench it works fine. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Reply:It has to be going to ground, need to check your kill wire. Here is a good thread with pictures on it. http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=48902&page=2Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I took the wire going to the kill switch off still no good. So i thought it might be going to ground where it went through the housing so I unwired it. Still no good. All the wires are in good shape. ???
Reply:When on the bench is the cap and rotor off and when on the engine they're on?If so you may have a cracked cap or rotor with a carbon trail that is allowing the spark to short to ground with the mag on the engine.  If that's the case, see if you get spark from the coil tab to ground by using a screwdriver against the mag housing with the cap off.  I've actually seen the spark jump the entire distance itself. Spraying the cap or rotor with Brake-Kleen may work temporarily but if cracked they'll need to be replaced for a permanent fix.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:The cap and rotor are on on the bench. While the mag is on the bench I installed a spark plug wire into #4 on the cap and grounded the spark plug against the vise. It had a nice blue spark. My flywheel has no marks so I found top of #4 piston. The the three punch marks where the Mag. goes lined up. So I had to turn the Mag shaft counter clockwise about 1/4 turn to match the gear. Installed the Mag. then cranked the engine to check the fire no fire. If I am doing something wrong please let me know.
Reply:By "no fire" do you mean no spark or the engine won't fire up and run?How did you determine #4 was at TDC?MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:yes no spark. I didnt want to take vavle cover off so I so we used the old finger in the spark plug hole. I know this is not the proper way but with no marks on ther flywheel how can you determine TDC. I am new with this old of an engine so any help would  be appreciated. This welder belonged to my grandfather and I would like to do a complete restoration on this machine. Thanks
Reply:Well you seem to be doing everything right.  I'll have to think a bit more on it.  It's so much harder to troubleshoot when you're not right there. Is this a Fairbanks-Morse or American Bosch mag?  Just for the record.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:American Bosch. I just noticed that on the bench it acts like it fires on 1 and 4 at the same time and then 2 and 3 at the same time is it supposed to do that.
Reply:Read the sticky at the top of this page. Mag timing instructions are covered in detail there.Complete with pictures
Reply:Originally Posted by kyrebelAmerican Bosch. I just noticed that on the bench it acts like it fires on 1 and 4 at the same time and then 2 and 3 at the same time is it supposed to do that.
Reply:To me it sounds like a cracked cap or carbon trails. I've seen that before on car distributors. Take the cap off and check it with a muti-meter1960 Redface SA-200 F 1621973 Black face SA-200 F 163 with 5" chop2013 Miller Trailblazer 2752013 GMC 3500 welding car
Reply:One contact point on the rotor, two spark plugs firing at the same time. Sounds like a bad cap. Get a new cap then go back to making sure the mag is set up right.
Reply:I will do that and let you all know.
Reply:You know Gents, there were ignition systems which for simplicity's sake (I believe)  would also fire on the exhaust stroke. This includes some modern electronic ignitions.Since both pairs 1-4 and 2-3 cross, rather than some other random combination(s) of crossing, I can't help but wonder if the Kyrebel cap isn't internally wired? Just a guess.I know that doesn't get us any closer to a solution for the original problem but it may save Kyrebel the time and expense of unnecessarily replacing the cap, which I'm sure isn't an Auto Zone item. As to the first issue, I'm wondering if somehow the installed mag's drive coupler isn't diverting the spark to ground, maybe through the rotor? How 'bout clamping the mag to the block, for a second "bench" test?Kyrebel, how 'bout a very close inspection of the cap before condemning it? Maybe an ohmmeter reading?Good LuckEdit - With a second swig of coffee the possibility of an internal bridge makes less sense. Any such bridge would at least have to have a gap equal to the plugs' - I think. - to keep from firing just the "easiest" plug. Although I am sure about the exhaust firing systems.Last edited by denrep; 02-07-2011 at 10:40 AM.
Reply:Older Harley Davidsons used to fire on both cylinders at the same time.  One cylinder was filled with exhaust so no harm done.  First time I have heard of this with a mag though.Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:Dual cylinder firing is the norm on many current engines that have individual coils that serve two cylinders as you've pointed out denrep and I've never seen one but for the 1/4 2/3 cross firing a dual sided rotor would explain it.I mentioned the cracked rotor shorting to the shaft in post #4 as I've seen that before but if it shorts with the mag on the engine I would think it would also short with the mag in the vise.  That's presuming kreybel was checking for spark with the plug out of the head and not under compression.  ??? MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Dual cylinder firing is the norm on many current engines that have individual coils that serve two cylinders as you've pointed out denrep and I've never seen one but for the 1/4 2/3 cross firing a dual sided rotor would explain it.. . .
Reply:I found two other mag in my grandfathers welding box. I will transfer the parts from this one to one of the other ones I found. This should isolate some of my problems. That is if these mags are good and its not the rotor or cap.
Reply:kyrebel,  When you turn the mag over on the bench is the impulse tripping okay ?  The magneto impulse drive has a spring inside there it can get rusted, corroded binding needing oiled or the spring can break and if not tripping at all.  It isn't going to fire on slow speed on the engine when trying to start it if the impulse is worn out.   Not using a mag flange gasket or sometimes need 2 or 3 gaskets to shim it out more so the impulse won't bind and will still trip correctly.  It has to trip and spin mag over fast for good starting spark and will throw out not tripping after the engine starts.  What brand is the mag ?  The impulses are different designs for each of them.  Impulse parts get worn and you finally do get it to bust off and the impulse starts tripping again after it starts shut it off or you'll thrash and ruin the mag.  Should never hear it tripping after the engine starts.  Bad bearings or bushings with slack in the magnet rotor shaft in the mag can cause erratic firing or no firing also.  The dist rotor gear on them has to be timed correctly also.
Reply:Save these manuals if you need them not just the links.  Lincoln changed their site up and keeps hiding this older stuff from us and will probably change it again.  Timing and adjustments with R57 idlerhttp://www.lincolnelectric.com/Asset...OLN3/IM179.pdfTiming and adjustments with electronic idlerhttp://www.lincolnelectric.com/Asset...OLN3/IM277.pdf
Reply:Fixalinc, kyrebel stated the mag is an American-Bosch.  I wouldn't think he'd be getting bench spark if the impulse coupling wasn't working properly.  Any thoughts on the 1/4, 2/3 cross double fire he seems to be getting?MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Ok guess I missed what brand he said.  The American Bosh is even worse on impulse sticking if parts get worn or spring is weak.  He needs to tell us if mag has slack in it or more info yet.  Not everyone should mess with the bearings in a Bosch mag that have to be shimmed to .001 to .002".  The fiber rotor gear has to be timed correctly for it to fire right and teeth can strip off those.  He just needs to look more and give more info on this.  Could be more internal problems of the mag or simple as nothing timed right or wrong cap and wrong rotor also.
Reply:American Bosch MRD4 and other Bosch have a impulse hub with two keyways also for CW marked C & CCW marked A for anti clockwise rotations.  If someone didn't put it back on C and the weights in right isn't going to work or trip at all.  PM or email me if you need more info on the mag or get it fixed right.
Reply:I have a FM Mag in mine and I beleive it cross fires two cylinders at a time as well but my machine runs fine. I did give me a fit timing it though, when you read the procedure it tells you to insert it when 4 has fired, trouble is I don't know it it is on 1 or 4. I had trouble but corrected it by changing the plug wires until ran properly. I then timed it with a light and it starts and runs great. It has been a while but I bought mine with no spark, took it out and turned the mag and it had spark. I didn't understand how the spring worked at first, it is for low rpm firing when starting like Fixalinc said. I think if you hold it at a certain angle the weights and mechanism catch and throw a spark, then it you turn it and put it in the machine it doesn't catch and fire, this was due to the broken spring. When I changed the spring and turned it by hand I heard and felt the difference, Especially when I contacted the wire. What a difference in the spark of a properly functioning Mag.LOL.I would check the implulse spring for a break or bind. If I remeber right just the end of mine was broke so it was catching a little but not properly.Last edited by kolot; 02-10-2011 at 12:02 AM."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400It should never be firing two cylinders at a time if does you got a dirty or cracked cap.  When I run the mags slow on my mag test stand on the firing board they all fire in order one after another if wires hooked up that way not two at once.  Some ignition systems will use a waste spark system firing again on the exhaust stroke.  Also years of crud and thick coatings of paint on outside of the distributor cap are a bad thing too.  Old paints were lead based and with cracks or porous spots on outside it can be firing across there and you won't even be able to see it in daylight or firing across under a layer of paint or grease.  That's why I get so peeved when everyone puts several coats of paint on the mag caps mask them off instead !   You can soak the cap in carb cleaner to get all the paint off and then spray it with acrylic clear coat or even fix cracks with 5 minute epoxy till can get a new cap.  Don't know why Lincoln decided to start timing off # 4 and mark the flywheel that way.  Even in the oldest SA200 and Continental engine manuals it tells you to time them with # 1 on TDC compression there was no mark back then on the flywheel.  The dist caps on FM, Bosch & Wico have the # 1 tower marked and are different.  If thinking right it's the upper right on Bosch and upper left on FM.  That has caused a lot of confusion on proper timing too.
Reply:Alright here we go I found 1 more FM mag took parts from the three to make one. This Mag does not double fire so thats better. The American Bosch had a broke spring. I will put it on the welder tomarrow to see if this one fires on the welder. Thanks for all the INFO.
Reply:The FM Mag is working right. Does not go to ground on the machine. Still having problems. I believe it is out of time there is no timing marks on this machine. Is there a easy way of timeing one with no timing marks. Say timing 4 cylinder would you time it as soon as you feel the compression stroke coming up or once it makes its full stroke. Now on the Mag once you get the mag to fire on #4 do you turn it to the point where the mag catchs on #4 agian.????
Reply:It is running and welding. All thats left is rewiring the starter and ceaning her up for paint. I really appreciate every one that helped I learned alot. I'm glad I ran across this wed site. THANKS
Reply:Good you got you going.  If you need more help to get the other mags going later for spares let me know just PM me here or email [email protected]   I have most all parts in stock for FM and Bosch mags and the spring.