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I'm working on a job building a new rail yard.It involves a storage yard (6 tracks, 12 switches, a test track, 4 switches, and a maintenance building)I have all of the tracks and switches built, along with the maint building.In the building, is a rail pit, where the track goes through the building and is suspended on structural columns so crews can work on the trains underneath. Now here is my problem.On top of the structural columns (vertical) is a structural tubing (horizontal) which is 4"x8"x 1/2" x 160'L.The rail sits on top of the structural tubing and gets welded 3" beads every 12".The drawing spec calls for AWS D1-1-77.Can anyone here define this procedure for me so I can finish this job?All help and information will be greatly appreciated!Big thanks to all for your time!Wishing everyone here a Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year!gandydancer
Reply:gandy,I think what you're making reference to is the AWS D1.1 Structural Steel Welding Code. The "-77" has me confused because those digits usually represent which year edition of the code is being referenced. And as far as I know there was no 1977 edition. I think what your drawing is trying to tell you is that they want the welding to be done in conformance with AWS D1.1. Because the AWS D1.1 code is not it's self a welding procedure. It does how ever contain a number of different pre-qualified welding procedures one of which will probably fit you're situation. I think you better get some localized help from at least a CWI and maybe even a qualified Engineer to make sure you don't screw the pooch on this one. I've never been involved with welding railroad rail directly to structural steel but I could for see there maybe being some special requirements because of the rails higher carbon content.
Reply:gandy,I just did some quick inter-web research into railroad rail chemical composition and rail welding procedures. The little bit I've learned so far would make me extremely hesitant to just go stitch welding a rails bottom flange to a piece of structural tubing like it sounds you're talking about doing. In fact I'm surprised that your drawing isn't calling out for some kind of clips to be welded on that holds the rail in place (with no actual welding to the rail its self).
Reply:I just did a search on "raised rail maintenance platforms". Looked at a bunch of pictures and no where did I see where they welded the rail to the supporting steel it sits on. It's all done with some kind of clip system like in this picture where they're bolted to the top flange of this beam.http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4120/4...e30ae566_z.jpg
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956The "-77" has me confused because those digits usually represent which year edition of the code is being referenced.
Reply:Long story about this.We submitted RFI and specifically told the owners that industry standards dictate never to weld base of rail to a structural tube or I beam.I have used special clips before and requested to use them on this job.It came back from the engineers that the clips were acceptable.Then the owner came to do a pre inspection and said they didn't want the clips, they wanted the base welded to the tubing like the drawings indicate.They have a rail pit in the old section of yard and that's how it was, welded to the tubing.The drawings that I have indicate refer to AWS D1-1-77.Which has got me to this point, struggling to find answers.When I ask the engineers for a clarification, all I get is refer to the same reference number.Thanks to all for your time!gandy
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Reply:As you can see from the pic, we had clips all laid out and ready to weld them to the tubing.
Reply:It DOESN'T MATTER what the owner wants. If the engineers/application calls for it to be done to a specific standard, that's how it has to be done. The type of steel the rail is made from certainly has a lot of bearing on this. When you're talking hundreds of tons, you don't want to be messing around.
Reply:The trains here are transit engines. The only weigh approx 40 tons.Not heavy haul freight locomotives.And yes, I certainly agree with you.
Reply:The "77" may refer to the year revision of D1.1. If so there may be a procedure available from the engineering firm. Give the a shout for clarification.This may help, dated 1977, a commentary on AWS D1.1-1972 in regard to tubular structures.https://books.google.com/books?id=Sk...201977&f=falseYou can also contact AWS to see if they have an SWPS for purchase that engineering will approve.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Here is the list of procedures for purchase.http://pubs.aws.org/t/proceduresHere is one that may apply, dunno.http://pubs.aws.org/p/68/b21-1-01719...pwht-conditionWeld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I can tell you from a recent experience welding rail that the weld will fail catastrophically with little impact. There might be a way to weld rail to mild steel but the process is probably time consuming. If there were a small number of welds probably not a big deal but a weld every twelve inches for 160' and doing this 4 times ( once down each side of the rail) is going to be a time consuming process. I work part time in a rail test facility and my job was to weld stops of the end of the track in case of a accidental release of the wheelset. Since time is money, I was told "just weld the d**n things on the track",which is what I did using properly stored 7018. A month later the boss nudged the stop with the wheelset and the stop just popped off. I was told the my weld failed. Upon further inspection the weld didn't fail. The rail broke directly underneath/around in the HAZ where I had welded it. It looked like a 1/4" fillet attached to the bottom of the stop but it was rail material that had broken out of the rail. I did a little research and am not quite sure that things are meant to be welded to rail. I did discover one product call "FrogMang" made by Lincoln but I think it's more of a hardfacing/surface repair rod rather that a "weld stuff to the rail" rod.
Reply:Yes I have heard of FrogMang. It's a Manganese rod used to repair switch frogs!For all inquiring minds following this thread, Frog in RR terminology is the point of intersection at the center of a switch.
Reply:Careful now there. Some of that high Manganese rod is limited to the last one or two passes. That rod like Lincoln FrogMang is more for surface wear resistance than it is for structural integrity and crack resistance. Cross checking is a pretty sure sign of manganese build up (thru dilution) in multi-pass welds. Not so much a problem when it comes to plain wear resistance but could factor in significantly when it comes to structural integrity.
Reply:Originally Posted by gandydancerLong story about this.We submitted RFI and specifically told the owners that industry standards dictate never to weld base of rail to a structural tube or I beam.I have used special clips before and requested to use them on this job.It came back from the engineers that the clips were acceptable.Then the owner came to do a pre inspection and said they didn't want the clips, they wanted the base welded to the tubing like the drawings indicate.They have a rail pit in the old section of yard and that's how it was, welded to the tubing.The drawings that I have indicate refer to AWS D1-1-77.Which has got me to this point, struggling to find answers.When I ask the engineers for a clarification, all I get is refer to the same reference number.Thanks to all for your time!gandy
Reply:Yes you are right. The mag rods are for repairing surface defects and build up spots that are worn. Cheaper than buying a new frog! A little maintenance goes a long way. Especially if it prevents costly derailments!
Reply:Thanks HT!I appreciate the info.I will do some research on these references. Will let you know what I come up with.On a side note, the competency of these engineers are in question here from the very beginning of this job. You were spot on with that assumption!Thanks again buddy! Merry Xmas to you and your family!
Reply:Bad news about the D15.1You can view the table of contents here. https://pubs.aws.org/Download_PDFS/D....1M-2012PV.pdfUnfortunetly under General Requirements 1.1 Scope. it specifically says that it's not intended for use on tank cars nor the welding on rails.Looks like it's just for the building of locomotives and cars. Dam it, for a minute there I thought I might be on to something that would help.
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956Researching and figuring out a proper, acceptable welding procedure for this is an engineering responsibility.
Reply:gandy,I think I found something good......D15.2/D15.2M:2013 RECOMMENDED PRACTICES FOR THE WELDING OF RAILS AND RELATED RAIL COMPONENTS FOR USE BY RAIL VEHICLESMember Price: $51.00 Non-Member Price: $68.00This document recommends the minimum standards for the welding of rails and related rail components used by rail vehicles. Repair procedures for rails and austenitic manganese steel components are covered. Thermite welding and electric flash welding guidelines are discussed. Procedure qualification, welder qualification, and general welding safety procedures are addressed. Here's the link to where the company could buy it for you.http://pubs.aws.org/p/1169/d152d152m...-rail-vehicles
Reply:Big Big thanks for all of your time! I'm gonna owe you big! ( Big Box of Beer)Thanks again buddy!
Reply:Quick update, I dropped this issue in the engineers lap! Will keep all informed of their response!Thanks again to all for your time!Merry Xmas and Happy New Year!Gandydancer
Reply:Has anyone suggested a high nickel rod of some sort, I know that we use 307 to join hardox400 to A36.
Reply:I will differ to the engineers and competent welders. I have cut rail by scoring with a sawzall, then hit it with a sledge hammer. Although the local grain mill was framed with stolen rail welded top to top to make a sort of I beam, I question the wisdom of such use. I would not without approval of someone with significant expertise in writing, weld to rail in a structural situation.gandy,Going west out of the MRL, Helena yard toward the continental divide at Mullan Passs......I got involved in making a machine for clipping rails to those precast concrete ties.
Reply:Between Helena and the Mullan Pass (at the continental dive) is a serious monument to mankind and his ability to reshape his environment to fit his needs.
Reply:The last tressell on the East side of the divide at Mullen Pass. The Mullen Tunnel is about a mile further on.
Reply:About half way between Helena and the Mullen pass is the Austin Siding. In Feb. 1989 they tried to set a string of 48 cars of on it to switch engines around. Long story short, they forgot to set the hand brakes and because of the extreme low temps (-32F) the air brakes failed and the whole string broke lose and rold 10 miles back into Helena and hit another train that was waiting on its turn to climb the pass. There was a tank car full of (iso) alcohol and one of hydrogen peroxide involved. Plus when it derailed it involved a good sized propane tank and an electrical substation.
Reply:I have been questioning their logic from day 1. All the direct fixation that I have done is with rail hold down clips, bolted or welded to the structural steel and not the rail base itself. Its funny that you mention scoring the rail, hitting it with a sledge, and it snaps like a dry twig. Thats how we cut up scrap rails also.It's amazing how that rail can hold 200+ ton locomotives and break so easily just by scoring the rail head.I threw this issue back to the engineers, and will post their comments for review here also.I just DO NOT trust these guys!Thanks and have a Merry Xmas!Gandy
Reply:@ gandydancer - learned about rail "frogs" at http://www.engsoc.org/~josh/AREMA/ch...ic%20Track.pdf. Specifically, p3-26+. The practical guide to the AREMA manual references, as you stated, many options for mechanical tie-downs (clips). Didn't see any mentioned of direct welding to the rail base. You're on the right track in shoving this back to the EngANears and see what they say. What is the steel type/classification for these frogs? Manual states "one piece manganese castings..." are used for frogs."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:ManoKai,Nice find. Interesting read too. I tried clicking on Chapter 8 (railway structures) thinking there'd be some good info there but the link was broke. I did some searching trying to find a place I could read it for free but haven't had any luck so far. Any chance you'd know where to find it like you did with Chapter 3? In general I'd have to say that any company involved (especially on the engineering side) with doing railroad related work probably ought to have the most recent edition of that publication.
Reply:Originally Posted by gandydancerLong story about this.We submitted RFI and specifically told the owners that industry standards dictate never to weld base of rail to a structural tube or I beam.I have used special clips before and requested to use them on this job.It came back from the engineers that the clips were acceptable.Then the owner came to do a pre inspection and said they didn't want the clips, they wanted the base welded to the tubing like the drawings indicate.They have a rail pit in the old section of yard and that's how it was, welded to the tubing.The drawings that I have indicate refer to AWS D1-1-77.Which has got me to this point, struggling to find answers.When I ask the engineers for a clarification, all I get is refer to the same reference number.Thanks to all for your time!gandy
Reply:@ HT2 - try http://www.arema.org/publications/pg...PGChapter8.pdfBonus: Last edited by ManoKai; 12-26-2014 at 03:45 PM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Those are some beautiful pix HT!That's why I love Railroad work. You get to see some of the most breath taking scenery in the world.I worked for a 5 year stint on the reading railroad. A few tunnels that you couldn't see daylight from one end to the other, bridges and trestles built in the early 1900's and mountain views that were just breath taking. Native trout streams, deer, bear and all kinds of critters! It's not just a job, but a real adventure!
Reply:Yes, the frogs are made from manganese castings.
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Reply:Nice pic!That looks like a bridge we have back home in Pa.When I get back there , I will take a pic and compare!Thanks HTGandy
Reply:So many old steel/iron bridges in PA left over from when steel was king in places like Pittsburgh and Allentown/Bethlehem and on the lines that connected them to the rest of the country. I always love to go look at some of the old riveted iron/steel bridges up in the Bethlehem / Easton area, not to mention the small truss road bridges that are still around on some of the back roads..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWSo many old steel/iron bridges in PA left over from when steel was king in places like Pittsburgh and Allentown/Bethlehem and on the lines that connected them to the rest of the country. I always love to go look at some of the old riveted iron/steel bridges up in the Bethlehem / Easton area, not to mention the small truss road bridges that are still around on some of the back roads.
Reply:A few old RR bridges from up around Easton Pa. 1st picture is a bit deceptive as there's at least 25-30 feet between the bank of the dry canal walk way at the top of the berm and the under side of that bridge. That full size long reach Kebelco track hoe looked like a toy as it passed under the bridge..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Nice pix DSW!The last pic looks Identical to a bridge that I put all new timbers on in Warren, Pa.The neatest bridge I ever worked on was a rotating bridge over a canal in Rehobeth, Delaware. (Maryland Delaware RR)One man could turn the crank to move the bridge 180 deg for the train to pass.I will try to find a pic of that one.The engineering in those days were excellent. The balance was perfect for one guy to move a 150' bridge by himself!
Reply:The lower level West Seattle bridge rotates. I didn't work on it, I worked on the east end of the upper level. The Company I worked for, yards is just beyond the railroad bridge in the up position in the second picture. When ever I was sent back to the yard I watched some of the construction of the rotating bridge. Amazing to watch something of that size rotate! Attached ImagesDont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Here's another old riveted iron trestle I came across while doing some work at a mine near Jefferson City, MT. This spur has been abandoned and the rails been taken up for quite a few years now but I'd guess it could be put back into service if needed.
Reply:DSW, gandy,I grew up in and round the Catawissa, PA area. Both my great and great, great maternal grandfathers worked for the railroads there. While railroading was past it's hey day and things were in serious declined during the 60s and early 70s while I was growing up some of my best childhood memories were hiking with my grandpa along railroad right of ways and across trestles and thru tunnels while he told me stories about how things use to be when he was young. I've walked across the old wooden trestle at Mainville and the iron trestle that crossed the Sesquahanna River at Rupert.Last edited by HT2-4956; 12-29-2014 at 01:02 PM.
Reply:Here's a dropbox link to a bunch of pictures I took in and around Ely, NV while working there for a few months at the Robinson Copper Mine. Most of them are in the old train yard. It's kind of a museum and if you pay your $5 they'll let you wander around and explore the place. There's quite a few pics showing their blacksmithing shop / operations.https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ikcbb7875...0RprMQSma?dl=0
Reply:Yet more train related stuff (what can I say I like trains).......Got to spend a week in Holland a few years back playing Tourist. One of the neater things we did was ride the antique "Stoom Tram" from Medemblik up to Hoorn and then spent the day walking around Hoorn looking at the old wooden sailing ships. Where you get off the train in Hoorn they've got a nice steam train / railroad museum.
Reply:Fantastic pix!It still amazes me to this day what good people accomplished to build this country, without the benefit of modern equipment.The old cut stone trestles, wooden and steel bridges, Steam locomotives, and the engineering was just incredible.Keep up the great postings!I guess I opened a good can of worms here with all of the railroad stuff!!!!The people that say it can't be done need to get out of the way of those that are doing it!gandy
Reply:Originally Posted by gandydancerIt still amazes me to this day what good people accomplished to build this country, without the benefit of modern equipment.
Reply:Originally Posted by gandydancerFantastic pix!It still amazes me to this day what good people accomplished to build this country, without the benefit of modern equipment.The old cut stone trestles, wooden and steel bridges, Steam locomotives, and the engineering was just incredible.Keep up the great postings!I guess I opened a good can of worms here with all of the railroad stuff!!!!The people that say it can't be done need to get out of the way of those that are doing it!gandy |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:07:33