Problem with AL TIG

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Hi folks,I'm trying to TIG weld some 1/4" aluminum to 1/16". I'm using a Yeswelder 250P at 100Hz and 30% cleaning, non-pulsed, with a 3/32 gray tungsten.The problem I'm having is that just about when the heavier side starts to puddle, the arc will start sputtering and basically go out. If I move to a different area, I'll get a good arc again, but the same sputtering will start again. If I brush the area, it will arc a bit better, but still not really getting anywhere here.I've tried different argon rates and different balance settings. Also tried two different torches (was initially using a 1/16" gray in a smaller torch).Taking an 1/8" coupon and just running some beads, they mostly work, but still get into this situation in some areas. The surface has a lot of gray to it... not really the white that the cleaning action should produce.I did see the same thing happen at one point when I was taking a TIG class... entirely different equipment... so it certainly seems to be something that I'm doing wrong. Any ideas/suggestions?Thanks,Paul
Reply:Ok asking not trying to be snarky.  What happens is you swap to the 70% side? As in is the polarity reversed? Sent from my SM-G960U using TapatalkI haven't built anything I can't throw away.  Perfection is the journey.    Mac
Reply:Not an option with this machine. In A/C the ground only works on one side. The balance maxes out at 65%.I am wondering if maybe this is something that happens if I'm not giving it enough current... right now I have it set for 100A max.
Reply:Ok, I know some machine are reverse of the "norm"Sent from my SM-G960U using TapatalkI haven't built anything I can't throw away.  Perfection is the journey.    Mac
Reply:Originally Posted by SQLGuyI am wondering if maybe this is something that happens if I'm not giving it enough current... right now I have it set for 100A max.
Reply:Yes,, what you describe is most certainly because you are trying to weld with Far too little Amperage...Turn it Up to 250 and have at it! (while of course, focusing most of the heat on the 1/4" piece and only after you have established a puddle there, "roll" the torch towards the 1/16th)
Reply:Originally Posted by Kelvin100A on 1/4" aluminum? Good luck with that. You might as well try welding it with a 12W soldering iron.From what we've seen here in the past, Yeswelders would have been more aptly named NOwelders...
Reply:Pictures ?When all else fails, check the manual.https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/7...95#post8822795I accidently reversed leads on a AC TIG machine with the balance set to one side. It didn't weld good at all, and the tungsten (inverter using gold - 1.5%?) eroded back into the cup very quickly. The weld looked contaminated, but I when I increased the amps to get a puddle the whole tip of the tungsten blew off, dropped on the aluminum, popped out of the crater, and left a mess. Gotta wonder if this isn't bad gas/not enough flow ? When the solenoid opens at 0:29, it sounds like the gas is flowing at the machine, but I don't hear that hollow sound at the cup, or any after flow. I would turn up the flow until I could hear it. Maybe a fresh tank will make a difference. The welder sounds like its making all the right noises except for the gas.Here's a picture with reverse leads :The quickest check is to crank up the balance to 90%-100% (the yellow circles)The red star looks like its the part of the tungsten that melted off and fell in the puddle, and blew up.(checked later, was aluminum)Best of luckPS oops, I meant CFH, not CFM sorry for the confusionPSS  -  You'll need at least 200 amps to get the 1/4" to begin to puddle, I would set machine to 250 and use the foot pedal to control the amps. That is after you fix the first problem.Best of luckLast edited by albrightree; 2 Weeks Ago at 01:56 PM.Airco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square waveMiller Synchrowave 180 sdMiller Econo Twin HFLincoln 210 MPDayton 225 ac/dcVictor torchesSnap-On YA-212Lotos Cut60D
Reply:Originally Posted by albrightreeI accidently reversed leads on a AC TIG machine with the balance set to one side. It didn't weld good at all, and the tungsten (inverter using gold - 1.5%?) eroded back into the cup very quickly. ...
Reply:Originally Posted by BaTuYes,, what you describe is most certainly because you are trying to weld with Far too little Amperage...Turn it Up to 250 and have at it! (while of course, focusing most of the heat on the 1/4" piece and only after you have established a puddle there, "roll" the torch towards the 1/16th)
Reply:I don't know whether this is what's going on, but it may be useful information to you in the future:https://www.thefabricator.com/thewel...-rectification
Reply:Does your Hz go any higher than 100? 200 or more? Also on 1/4" you could go up to an 1/8" tungsten but higher Hz and 250 amps will help. Your cleaning at 30% should be ok to get you going. Maybe practice with some edge beas on the 1/4" alone until you get what you want.Thermal Arc 320SP ( Lorch )Cobra PythonsThermal Arc 300 AC/DC  ( Sanrex )ESAB 301i AC/DC  ( Lorch )Thermal Arc 161STL  ( WTL )Thermal Arc 190S  ( Sanrex )Cut Master 82, 42. Cut45 ( WTL )Victor Gas Apps.Boxes and boxes of welding crap.
Reply:Welding thick to thin aluminum is a little tricky, seems like the arc jumps to one plate and not both at the same time.  You get it started on the thick plate and then blow away the thin...  I drop in my filler wire on the thin plate at the time the thick plate melts.  just takes practice.It seemed like a good idea at the time!
Reply:Originally Posted by SQLGuyTaking an 1/8" coupon and just running some beads, they mostly work, but still get into this situation in some areas. The surface has a lot of gray to it... not really the white that the cleaning action should produce.
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinI don't know whether this is what's going on, but it may be useful information to you in the future:https://www.thefabricator.com/thewel...-rectification
Reply:Looking grey and skinning up? Sounds a lot like it has some kind of coating on it. Sure it's not anodized or even something that's not a weldable alloy? You also see this kind of thing when trying to weld aluminum with DCEN, so what's the possibility that the welder is set for 30% tep, but actually only getting around 10%? 250A is correct for the .250" plate, and some possible things to try might be to set the cleaning action as high as it will go (65%?) and see what happens. If it's really 65%, you may want to have a 1/8" tungsten in there :-)Also might try some pulse.
Reply:To SQLguy. Post some pics. This will help us. Also don't take a pic so close that we can't see the other areas. As others have stated, what is your pre-cleaning process and make sure your material does not have a coating on it. I run my Dyn 300 whatever it is set on like 280amps. I really don't care what the amps are set on I just make sure when I hit the pedal I get a puddle in less than 3 seconds. If not I just reach over and spin the amp settings with my finger and not even really look at the amps.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinI don't know whether this is what's going on, but it may be useful information to you in the future:https://www.thefabricator.com/thewel...-rectification
Reply:Originally Posted by TJSTo SQLguy. Post some pics. This will help us. Also don't take a pic so close that we can't see the other areas. As others have stated, what is your pre-cleaning process and make sure your material does not have a coating on it. I run my Dyn 300 whatever it is set on like 280amps. I really don't care what the amps are set on I just make sure when I hit the pedal I get a puddle in less than 3 seconds. If not I just reach over and spin the amp settings with my finger and not even really look at the amps.
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartIf you can't run a bead on a coupon you aren't going to get decent results on a joint with two significantly different thickness parts..
Reply:I think I'd start with the machine on eleven, stomp on it, get a puddle going, then back off and weld.
Reply:Originally Posted by SQLGuyI normally can run beads on the 1/8", but I running five or six of them, I may run into this issue on one of them.That's what I have been doing for the last few weeks.Because it's part of what I was taught in my TIG class even for thinner material, and it seemed like something to try.I set it to 200A, because I'm pretty sure that's what my WP26 torch is rated for. I expected that if more current was going to be the difference, then doubling it would show something even if it didn't solve the problem completely.
Reply:Munkul you aren’t far off. Maxed out, the 250 puts out 213 amps. YesWelder really needs to be exposed for falsely advertising their machines. I feel bad for beginners that are struggling because of the over rating amperage.Last edited by Tillerdemon; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:57 PM.Reason: Add photo
Reply:That's rather a large difference - I assume the clamp meter was zeroed. Do you get the same difference on AC?I  had a quick look at the manual - the post-flow time is listed as pre-flow (again) and the crater fill as pilot arc current. I guess that means you should read carefully.Jack Attached Images
Reply:Yes, clamp meter was zeroed and I believe the meter reads a few percentage higher than actual. Here’s the AC amperage. Although, I’m not sure you can measure AC properly with just a clamp meter, perhaps Oscar or another more knowledgeable person can verify.Originally Posted by TillerdemonYes, clamp meter was zeroed and I believe the meter reads a few percentage higher than actual. Here’s the AC amperage.
Reply:Originally Posted by TillerdemonMunkul you aren’t far off. Maxed out, the 250 puts out 213 amps. YesWelder really needs to be exposed for falsely advertising their machines. I feel bad for beginners that are struggling because of the over rating amperage.
Reply:Originally Posted by TillerdemonYes, clamp meter was zeroed and I believe the meter reads a few percentage higher than actual. Here’s the AC amperage. Although, I’m not sure you can measure AC properly with just a clamp meter, perhaps Oscar or another more knowledgeable person can verify.
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinAlso, most welder mfgrs rate their welders allowing some headroom, in other words, they don't rate them at their absolute highest setting. For example, my Sync 250 maxes out at 310A...at 250A, its duty cycle is 40%.
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinFWIW, my Amprobe (ACDC-100TRMS) will measure AC or DC current, but the manual warns in both cases, "The clamp must be positioned around only one conductor. If it is placed around two or more current carrying conductors, the reading is FALSE."
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack RyanA clamp meter will measure the sum of the currents passing through the clamp. If the ground cable and the electrode cable both pass through the clamp when the welding current is 100 amps, the current read will be 100 - 100 = 0 amps. The reading is not "false", it is correct.
Reply:Current shouldn't be passing through a "ground" cable unless something is really wrong Check out my bench vise website:  http://mivise.comMiller Syncrowave 250DXMillermatic 350P with XR AlumaProMiller Regency 200 with 22A feeder and Spoolmatic 3Hobart Champion EliteEverlast PowerTig 210EXT
Reply:After some research I have found that Retop Welds markets the same machine and they seem to provide more accurate machine ratings.
Reply:I got help from this group some time ago with an Aluminum Tig job, 1/4 inch.  The parameters were very much like those cited by G-ManBartHTP 221Machine set at 220 AmpsBalance = 60Freq: 80 or 100Post flow 10 seconds1/8" 2% La Tungsten1/8" Filler, Hobart 5356#7 cupNo pre-heat2 second stomp  to puddle and back off as needed.  The 1/8 electrode and lower freq really helped with a "T" of 1/4" to 1/4".  technique will need to be adjusted for 1/8 to 1/4 but I think these starter settings are good
Reply:For your reference - Primeweld 225X on AC with the same meter.
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartCurrent shouldn't be passing through a "ground" cable unless something is really wrong
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack RyanA clamp meter will measure the sum of the currents passing through the clamp. If the ground cable and the electrode cable both pass through the clamp when the welding current is 100 amps, the current read will be 100 - 100 = 0 amps. The reading is not "false", it is correct.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack RyanIf you are objecting to the use of "ground" meaning "reference" then I will respectfully ignore the comment. Ground has been used for "reference" for decades - my car uses a negative ground electrical system and yet it is able to move away from its parking position.I'm not really into politically correctness but I don't get angry about it - life is too short.I don't want to turn this into ground zero. RegardsJack
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinSeems to me that if the amprobe "will measure the sum of the currents passing through the clamp" and if 100A is going through the stinger lead, then 100A will also be going through the ground (work) lead...then "the sum of the currents" is 100A + 100A = 200ADoes current have a positive or negative value? Can you have a current of "minus 100 Amps"?I'll have to try it with my Amprobe and see what it says.
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartThis post is an even juicer target for electrical theory humor, but I'll ignore it
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack RyanActually, no theory has been mentioned - it is all about choosing to be offended by different terminologies.Anyway, enough of that, I choose to move on.Jack
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartI certainly wasn't offended, I was making an electrical theory joke...hence the smiley face.  Maybe it was too cerebral....noted.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack RyanApologies, I missed it. I should pay better attention.Jack
Reply:Originally Posted by TillerdemonMunkul you aren’t far off. Maxed out, the 250 puts out 213 amps. YesWelder really needs to be exposed for falsely advertising their machines. I feel bad for beginners that are struggling because of the over rating amperage.
Reply:Originally Posted by TillerdemonFor your reference - Primeweld 225X on AC with the same meter.
Reply:Originally Posted by MunkulPleasantly surprised, I'd have lumped Primeweld in at the same quality level as Yeswelder.Then again, it's maybe a good one...depends how variable the quality is...
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarIt's more prevalent than you think    ALL of the bottom-barrel welders proliferating the market are likely the same.  My Tooliom stick welders are the same.  Both claim more than what they do.  That being said, they can still put out a decent amount of welding current for what they cost.  But yes, couple the fact: that they put out less than what the digital display says + most new welders grossly under-setting the welders for the task at hand = recipe for welding disaster and cluttered forum threads centered around the same topic   Good thing we're here to set people straight.