30A/120V to 240V - Yes, I'm asking again... :-(

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I don't want to resurrect the old thread and confuse the situation - starting fresh.I have a 30A/120V RV outlet that I want to make 240V.  It is all by itself, nothing else is on the circuit/breaker/line.  This is my panel:


This with the RV breaker removed:

I have no room for anything but a "thin" style breaker.  I see thin ones available, but I do not understand how they get power from the other 120V leg/bar.  There is this one in the panel - I cannot find where it runs to or what it powers.  Even though it says it is a 15A breaker, it looks like there are 2 white wires and a black wire coming from the front bottom terminals.

I have clearly identified the black hot, white common, and bare copper ground coming from the outlet into the box.  Is a breaker like the one above (or like this):

Usable in my situation?  If so how is it wired into the panel?SEE NEXT POST FOR ANOTHER THOUGHT/QUESTIONSYeswelder MIG-205DS(3) Angle Grinders at the ReadyJust a hobbyist trying to improve
Reply:Another question I have:

The 4 green toggles all ganged together for the dryer and the water heater.The center two are in use and run the dryer.  The ones on each end used to run the water heater, but are no longer used and capped off at the WH location.  (We installed a tankless and new circuits for it)Is there an option to use that breaker somehow to power the RV outlet instead?Yeswelder MIG-205DS(3) Angle Grinders at the ReadyJust a hobbyist trying to improve
Reply:I'm having a hard time seeing the numbers, but I assume the greens are 30's? Why wouldn't you just come off the defunct water heater spot with your new 240V line? Switch the wires "if" they are heavy enough, and don't touch any breakers.The sparkies might jump on me again, but that unmarked blue appears to be a ground fault... I'm guessing those 3 wires go to exterior plugs and a bathroom plug, and that they are all 120.Last edited by whtbaron; 1 Week Ago at 04:55 PM.The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:What I saw in the pick of the open breaker space is you’d only be getting one leg of 220.Would need to move breakers around so space has a buss coming from each side to supply breaker w 220.Anyway, what I was seeing
Reply:ok.  So if I'm understanding correctly you want to use the existing 10G wiring to your RV outlet and instead make it a 240 w ground (but no neutral)?If so, what you'll need to do is move the wiring from your existing RV breaker, and the corresponding neutral that goes to the RV outlet, to the unused green breaker from your former water heater (presuming that it is 30A - I can read the breaker in the pix).If the former water heater breaker is not 30A, then swap it for the same design breaker in the correct amperage for both circuits.Clear as mud?Miller Trailblazer Pro 350DMiller Suitcase MIGMiller Spectrum 2050Miller Syncrowave 250DXLincoln 210MP
Reply:Your other thread contained other wants that were not possible. I remember you still wanting 120 from it too or something. It wasn't simple to do.What your asking now is simple as mentioned already.The wires going to the 125 volt RV plug pull neutral off the neutral bar and land on one side of that 30 and the hot on the other side. Now it is 240 but you need to get the right 240 plug installed. Maybe do that first while you have circuit disconnected.
Reply:That second to bottom is a GFI breaker 120 volt. That bottom breaker is a narrow GE breaker which does connect to two different phases in the spaces in the panels it is designed to be used in. It won't work in tht panel or in a GE panel only made for fullsize 1" breakers.Last edited by danielplace; 1 Week Ago at 01:24 AM.
Reply:Hmmm..... but won't his current line to the RV only have a black, white and bare copper wire? To go 240  shouldn't he switch out the wiring (to black, white, red and bare) or he's short a ground. Somehow making that bare wire in the box live to light things up doesn't seem like a good plan to me.The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:

Originally Posted by whtbaron

I'm having a hard time seeing the numbers, but I assume the greens are 30's? Why wouldn't you just come off the defunct water heater spot with your new 240V line? Switch the wires "if" they are heavy enough, and don't touch any breakers.The sparkies might jump on me again, but that unmarked blue appears to be a ground fault... I'm guessing those 3 wires go to exterior plugs and a bathroom plug, and that they are all 120.
Reply:

Originally Posted by whtbaron

Hmmm..... but won't his current line to the RV only have a black, white and bare copper wire? To go 240  shouldn't he switch out the wiring (to black, white, red and bare) or he's short a ground. Somehow making that bare wire in the box live to light things up doesn't seem like a good plan to me.
Reply:Woohoo - Thank you all.  That is why I didn't want to revive the old thread - I had many mistakes and errors in communicating the correct wiring specifics in my situation.I was really hoping that WH circuit/breaker would save me.Yeswelder MIG-205DS(3) Angle Grinders at the ReadyJust a hobbyist trying to improve
Reply:Like everyone said you can use the abandoned water heater quad. If for some reason you don't want to you can replace the "20 amp outlets" and the "30 amp RV" breakers with a 20/30/30/20 quad and put the new circuit on the two middle 30's and the "outlets" on one of the outer 20's. This will leave you with a spare 20. You can snip the handle tie off the outer 20's if desired. Do not buy GE breakers for that panel, it is a Bryant and takes Eaton/Cutler Hammer BR series breakers. (the BR is for "Bryant"). Also a tip on that red main breaker, if it were mine I would never shut it off, if I wanted to cut all power I'd shut off all the branch breakers instead, just be aware that the bus will still be energized. Those mains are famous for not wanting to reset once opened, especially if they have not been operated for years and the ones with the offset lugs are not easy to find.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:That's a fairly common old panel here in Tucson. Working the neutrals is a PITA. Pretty sure I still have at least one spare main in the shop (used). The upside down breaker positions on the top row no longer meet code.Last edited by bigb; 1 Week Ago at 12:20 PM.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:Just looking at old thread. Seemed about the same. It may have been another thread when something about having 120 still was involved I was thinking about. https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/7...20V-ReceptacleAre the top panel pictures in the proper orientation or is the picture posted sideways ?The breaker you mentioned to put in one slot on that Bryant with two outputs is not 240 volt it is a tandem 120 volt breaker two circuits of 120 volt but they must not both feed into a 3 wire each needs it own seperate neutral because they are on the same phase.Like say dish/dipsosal fed with 12/3 you could not land those two circuits on the same tandem breaker. It would work but badly wrong. Probably never pose a issue in that case but if the two circuits attached had 20 amp loads you would have 40 amp trying to return on the neutral instead of the Zero amp there would be on the common neutral if they were on separate phases.Last edited by danielplace; 1 Week Ago at 02:51 PM.
Reply:The picture isn't rotated, they are laid out horizontal like that.Success! Probably hurt myself now...

Yeswelder MIG-205DS(3) Angle Grinders at the ReadyJust a hobbyist trying to improve
Reply:Ever trace those circuits to the GFI? Having unmarked circuits in a box would drive me nuts... but of course that's a short trip...The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:

Originally Posted by whtbaron

Ever trace those circuits to the GFI? Having unmarked circuits in a box would drive me nuts... but of course that's a short trip...
Reply:That's what I was thinking too, but I would still want them marked. I guess it goes back to my days in the hog barn when things went wrong ( and it happened more often than other buildings) you needed to know what was going on and act fast. That's where I learned what I do know about electrical panels etc.The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Fire in the hole !!!! Lookout.As was said already the GFI almost certainly going to be bath/outside outlets. Only thing that was code back then.
Reply:

Originally Posted by whtbaron

Hmmm..... but won't his current line to the RV only have a black, white and bare copper wire? To go 240  shouldn't he switch out the wiring (to black, white, red and bare) or he's short a ground. Somehow making that bare wire in the box live to light things up doesn't seem like a good plan to me.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

240 volt loads don't need a neutral. 240/120 Volt loads, typically a dryer or range need a neutral. He hasn't said what his load is. If 240 ( there is no 220) since Edison was alive, he needs to change to a 240 volt configuration receptacle. I face this dilemma daily, not enough room in the panel. Time for an upgrade to a bigger panel. Your current panel is 50+ years old, are the brakes in your car?The lower breaker is GFCI, AFCI, or both. It gets one outboard leg from the buss it is plugged onto. Neutral (center tap) it gets from the stranded white connected to the neutral buss. Panel is old, too small, replace it. While doing that, consider AFCI breakers, they are a giant step toward fire safety. Do not confuse with GFCI, GFCI serves an entirely different purpose. AFCI detects arcing & turns affected circuit off before fire.
Reply:I'll update the panel if/when I get an electric vehicle.  It's on our radar - either the missus getting a Tesla M3 or a Cybertruck for me.  Depends on the timing of a number of things in our life.I can't defend the f'ed up power cord situation on my welder, and I can't imagine going over 140 amps very often with what I do - but short of a little, easily repaired, self inflicted hiccup, this thing has been solid as hell.Yeswelder MIG-205DS(3) Angle Grinders at the ReadyJust a hobbyist trying to improve
Reply:

Originally Posted by Shootr

I'll update the panel if/when I get an electric vehicle.  It's on our radar - either the missus getting a Tesla M3 or a Cybertruck for me.  Depends on the timing of a number of things in our life.I can't defend the f'ed up power cord situation on my welder, and I can't imagine going over 140 amps very often with what I do - but short of a little, easily repaired, self inflicted hiccup, this thing has been solid as hell.
Reply:

Originally Posted by danielplace

That wasn't the plan. Nobody suggested making a bare ground a live or current carrying conductor. Or having a circuit with no ground.You would loose the neutral. It becomes another hot leg. He will have straight 240 not 120/240. Straight 240 doesn't have/need a neutral. Just phase the white wire with red phase tape.
Reply:

Originally Posted by William McCormick

I thought he wanted to turn it into a 240 volt line to weld with? For sure if he needs a neutral for 120 volts you should not use the ground. Sincerely, William McCormickAnd thank-you for the explanation...The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:

Originally Posted by danielplace

It's a welder. Maybe AFCI on the welder. Would it detect the arcing and trip. LMAO !!!!He is in need of a new panel no doubt. I would rather have a standard Square D QO or bolt-in Not a fan of the new breakers on basically every circuit in the house like they make us do now.  Remember this was the one with the 240 adapter pumping 240 out a 120 configuration into the 120 volt cord on the machine to feed machine 240 volt.
Reply:Mute subject anymore. You have to use them.  Pretty stupid to first invent and allow the biggest reason for fires and bad connections which is backstabbed devices then invent a breaker to detect the arcing they produce while the lose connection is failing.  And allow wiring through devices both piss poor ways to do things.     I do not like the quality of the new panels that they make for AFCI breakers. The most likely place for a breaker to burn up is at the connection to the buss bar. So instead of one connection now we have 2 separate connections to 2 buss bars at every breaker. And two wired connections the second reason they burn up at every breaker. How many more chances is there for heat build up based on that alone never mind the electronics inside. Ever put any kind of load through a GFI ?  I can see the whole bunch of that new stuff catching fire and being the source. It is just evolution and expectations of better. To each his own. A quality bolt in and quality work and never back stab a outlet or switch use quality devices not 49 cent junk and don't wire through your devices you will not have fires from arcing. Most fires are from crappy electrical work and nothing less.Last edited by danielplace; 1 Week Ago at 12:32 AM.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

No, not on the welder circuit. I understand they recently introduced double pole AFCI breakers. I'll respectfully disagree with your opinion of AFCI breakers. Two arguments not to use; nuisance tripping, they have largely improved in the 25 years since VT started requiring them. The other is cost. I don't hear the argument that seat belts or air bags in cars are too expensive to use.I believe they have made a big difference in electrical fires, & would make a bigger difference if more electricians used them.
Reply:

Originally Posted by danielplace

Mute subject anymore. You have to use them.  Pretty stupid to first invent and allow the biggest reason for fires and bad connections which is backstabbed devices then invent a breaker to detect the arcing they produce while the lose connection is failing.  And allow wiring through devices both piss poor ways to do things.     I do not like the quality of the new panels that they make for AFCI breakers. The most likely place for a breaker to burn up is at the connection to the buss bar. So instead of one connection now we have 2 separate connections to 2 buss bars at every breaker. And two wired connections the second reason they burn up at every breaker. How many more chances is there for heat build up based on that alone never mind the electronics inside. Ever put any kind of load through a GFI ?  I can see the whole bunch of that new stuff catching fire and being the source. It is just evolution and expectations of better. To each his own. A quality bolt in and quality work and never back stab a outlet or switch use quality devices not 49 cent junk and don't wire through your devices you will not have fires from arcing. Most fires are from crappy electrical work and nothing less.
Reply:All my own is QO, simply because when I started replacing Federal they were around, I got started that way and that BR mostly,,, was really cheap looking cans and looked like QO was here to stay.  Also dont mount the equipment direct to concrete.  But looking back and at current installs dont really see much difference, and like others dont back stab and dont use the devices to pass thru.  Most of ther working circuits in my own have a breaker wire to duplex, not many splices and partly due to the use of additional panels making the branches really short, doesnt save a gob to go on except for use of more gfci now which adds to the cost which makes it more attractive to chain some together.    Its really easy to over estimate the true demand, so many more items but smaller peak loads and so much is battery powered.   Not fixed equipment but portable we use cords for few stand lights, now all led where they used to be quartz, batteryu charger and small grinders.  Even in a substantial shop like mine most loads are similar to a residential kitchen really,,, on occasion 2 tools by users but most still one at a time.  While I have 400 and a quite a bit of stuff, some others not so likely to have it would be a rare day to hit 100, that includes 3 hp well and 3 hp walk in cooler.   While I have 300 breakers connected actual load isnt much.    I dont do a lot outside but when I do its Homeline anymore, its simply so much more economical and lots of the lugs and fittings are same parts in different package, little like Hobart and Miller, same wire and cords etc.   I like the QO buss design better only due toi the fact its like Channelocks, there might be a better tool but been using it for so long that the instinct of where its at in the panel is what it is. So easy to brush it etc.  It does make me more inclined to shut it off for simple tasks.  I am not sure if my drill or saw though knows the difference if it in residential or commercial. Any other of the equipment for that matter.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I used to be a bit more pretentious about it,,, I figured I was more bad azz than other people and my electric was different but the only recepts I have replaced other than 1 I can recall that was loose from the start and never had anything but a box fan on it have been good ole USA and after I got part it been using the 48 cent ones for a couyple decades, if I ever got to replace one in the hundreds of them I have in service so be it.  On occasion I had to replace gfci,,, my helper took one apart a while back that wouldnt reset, found a bug in it.   I am reallyt done worrying about all that stuff,,, better best etc. I started out doing that, I figured I knew more than other people did about that sort of thing but it really hasnt proven out.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

You're preaching to the choir. My father before me used Square D QO, we have sworn by them a very long time, but I confess, Homeline is working equally well to QO for residential applications. I also believe the old practice of mounting on an outside wall in living area, or basement encourages condensation. I try to always mount away from cellar wall. Avoid outside wall entirely. I haven't seen a breaker to buss fail in years, partly it's about dry location, partly improved mechanism in breakers, and dielectric grease breakers come with these days. I confess my experience is very limited except Square D products.Dad's system was commercial grade devices, properly torqued. Each device got a single cable to the unfinished basement. Junction boxes were made up with Ideal 30-222 brass set screw wire connectors, 60 years so far, so good. I've never been a fan of daisy chain wiring I don't feel even screw terminals are up to the unknown of what somebody is going to plug in.