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Hey everyone,I have a millermatic 252 that I usually run .035 wire in. I'm going to weld in some lower door skins and what not onto my old plow truck (they're rusted out). I've got a fair amount of cutting and welding to do on this old truck and I'd like to set up the welder to do a decent job rather than just try to muddle through it. I'm going back and forth on a couple of options... Any advice on this would be really appreciated.Option #1: Put a spool of .030 in the welder and just use that. I'd only need to flip the drive rollers around and change out the tip to do this.Option #2: Put a spool of .024 in the welder. This looks like I'd need to buy and install new drive rollers, new liner, and new tips. Does this sound correct? I think this might be worth doing, but the parts add up to about a hundred bucks, plus the cost of the wire..Option #3: Figure out if I can run .024 in my spoolmatic 15a and just use that.I keep reading that this can be done ok with .030 wire, but .024 seams to be preferred. I've also read about using some esab easygrind wire or using a silicon bronze wire, but I have zero experience with these options. It seams like people use the silicon bronze wire with 100% argon (I do have a tank of this as well as a tank of c25).Thanks,DanEsab TradeMaster TorchSmith AW1A Airline TorchLincoln AC/DC 225/125Millermatic 252 w/ Spoolmatic 15aThermal Arc 190 GTSSpeedGlas 9100v
Reply:I'm certainly not an expert, but I think it's much easier to weld thin material with the .023/.024 wire. You probably could do it with the spool gun, but they're a bit clunky and heavy in comparison and it sounds like you're going to be putting a bit of time into this project.I would get a roll of .023/024 wire, a set of rollers, the correct liner (you might be able to get by with the current liner if you can keep the whip pretty straight) and then you'll always have them as an option.If you were just doing one little job it wouldn't be worth it, but for a bigger project I think you'll be happier in the long run with the smaller wire.Check out my bench vise website: http://mivise.comMiller Syncrowave 250DXMillermatic 350P with XR AlumaProMiller Regency 200 with 22A feeder and Spoolmatic 3Hobart Champion EliteEverlast PowerTig 210EXT
Reply:If you use ER70s-6 filler, then I do think you will have an easier time with the 0.024 wire. But even at that, its a lot of tack welds and stich welds to prevent distortion, followed by grinding and hammering to get to final shape (depending on how nice you want it to look). Silicon bronze is used because it melts at a much lower temp thereby reducing heat distortion. You are still doing a fair amount of tacking and grinding, but silicon bronze is easier to grind. I would probably go that route. There are some interesting videos about that process on the net.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:.025 wire is best for auto body stuff, but it's a pain to feed even in a 10 ft gun. If you have the 15' standard gun, forget it. I would use the .030 wire unless you have another machine with a short gun or have or will get a shorter gun for yours.
Reply:Save some money. The .030" wire will work just fine on the body material. Some machines don't work well with the .024" wire anyway. I know the 252 will work fine with the .030 and it will still be a good if you need to weld thicker in the meantime. Like Louie mentioned its a lot of short, hot tacks. You never run long continuous welds on body sheet metal.Ernie F.
Reply:I'd probably just go with .030 if it were me, .024 will be better to an extent, but I think it's pretty marginal in terms of ease of welding, and realistically .024 is a pain to feed through a standard 15 foot whip, really a 9 footer is what's needed to get it to feed okay but even then it's still not great.Set the .030 nice a cold, get some thin sheets of steel to practice on and get some nice setting for tacking with it and I think you'll end up with a nice job that way.
Reply:On a plow truck, just use a flange offset tool, looks like overgrown vise grips, and make a flange to go behind the panel you are patching. Then use the .035 you have, or .030, to make the welds with, just start the weld on the new piece, and keep the heat toward where the flange dips down. Easy Peezy.
Reply:Thanks everyone. I've never run .024 wire and I'm fine with making the investment, but it'd suck to spend the money and have the wire not feed very well. I'll probably just grab some .030 and see how that does.Esab TradeMaster TorchSmith AW1A Airline TorchLincoln AC/DC 225/125Millermatic 252 w/ Spoolmatic 15aThermal Arc 190 GTSSpeedGlas 9100v
Reply:and look for posts by MP&C in this thread on Garage Journalhttps://www.garagejournal.com/forum/...-panels.53534/MillerMatic 252, HTP 221 w/cooler, Hypertherm PM45, Lincoln IdealArc 250 AC/DC"I'd like to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible"
Reply:MDJ,I used to sell a body shop teflon liners. They helped the feed issues, but wore out fast. The shop always kept extra.Eric Sam I am
Reply:Many body guys use Easy Grind Wire. Check the Garage Journal site, there's discussions about it. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/...repair.161115/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:I was using some .024 last week with my 252 and the standard 15 foot gun. It bird nested about a dozen times during the day. It can be done if you pay attention to keeping everything straight and free from coils and twists but it is a pain. Ultimately, I just took all the sections after the bird nest, folded them in half and twisted them together for tig filler wire. Sent from my SM-G996U using TapatalkMillermatic 252 MIGMiller Dynasty 200DX TIGMiller Spectrum 625 PlasmaAltas 12x36 Metal LatheBridgeport Milling Machinewww.psacustomcreations.com
Reply:Get some scrap sheet metal the gauge you are going to weld and practice. I've welded automotive sheet metal for years with .035 wire in my Millermatic 250 and never had a problem. Sheet metal that gauge should be welded with tacks spaced 3/4"-1" apart then let cool. Never try to run a straight bead. It will warp too much.
Reply:It's strange to me all this trouble feeding .024 wire. I've run about 5 11 lb rolls thru my old MM175. Still using the original wire liner that's been cleaned out twice and very few bird nests. Things must have changed a lot since mine was made in the early 2000's.Ol' Stonebreaker "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:
Originally Posted by mla2ofus
It's strange to me all this trouble feeding .024 wire. I've run about 5 11 lb rolls thru my old MM175. Still using the original wire liner that's been cleaned out twice and very few bird nests. Things must have changed a lot since mine was made in the early 2000's.
Reply:In the day 1969 thru 1984 I did a good deal of rust repair. At the time I owned an acetylene torch, and an AC welder. Near all my welding was acetylene. I still choose that process except the distortion. After a weld there is hammer & dolly work to stretch the sheet metal back to size. We did (a friend & I) try out a MIG (Miller) in 1979 when we were grafting two cars together in the middle. I fell in love with it for floor pan, rocker panel & A post welds. At the time we couldn't afford $3500 for the bare machine.Many years later, I own a Millermatic 252, and a Dynasty 280DX. I would weld a half door skin, or any other butt weld on part panel replacement with TIG. TIG is still going to give HAZ (heat affected zone) shrinkage, but less than a torch. It'll pound to size easier, retaining more strength.I have a 100 amp dedicated gun for .023. It simply doesn't work. Within seconds it birdnests.I have a spool gun I haven't tried with .023. I've been through a lot trying to cure birdnests. Nothing I've tried has solved the problem. .035" runs fine all day. .030 mostly. .045 Dual Shield is difficult, .023 does NOT work.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I have a 100 amp dedicated gun for .023. It simply doesn't work. Within seconds it birdnests.I have a spool gun I haven't tried with .023.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
Interesting. I have a standard sized 240A MIG gun dedicated to 0.023" and it works great Can you tell me exactly what you did to "dedicate" it to 0.023"?
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I had ongoing problems with birdnest. Airgas in Rutland has a problem solver, he is pretty knowledgeable. After trying liners, adjustments, etc. he sold me a dedicated Miller gun for .023" with new rolls, guide. It's very petite, looks like it'd work. It did not solve the problem.Later I took it to a "Miller certified" technician. Turned out he was no longer certified, described himself as retired. He went through all the adjustments, doing everything that had been done before, without success. It runs all day no birdnest until I strike an arc, then instant birdnest with .023. .045 dual shield I might get 5 minutes before a birdnest. I have three guns, the mini Miller, The M25 that came with the welder, it has had all new parts a few times, And a 350 amp Bernard monster I bought for Dual Shield. All birdnest, Alignment has been checked by me , my son, & two trained people. No problems have been found.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
Interesting. Willing to check a couple things for me? Well it's not for me, it's for you, but you know what I mean.
Reply:Bird nest, on the spool of wire in the machine, correct ? I've found the drag setting to be more critical, welding body panels.The fast zapping allows the wire spool to free wheel to easily. Creating a loose wire loop on the spool. Next zap will snap the loose loop and pop the spool, free wheeling it, making the loop of wire bigger.Very hard to put into words here. I've solved this, looking at the wire spool, giving the stinger quick triggers, adjusting the drag so as the wire loop on the spool does not get larger.Magazines have issues, everything else has problems
Reply:Willie,Have you cheked the lateral alignment of the drive rolls? I was having issues with burn back on my 252. I stumbled across the drive rolls not aligning with the gun liner. I adjusted it ever so slightly and the burn back disappeared.
Reply:
Originally Posted by pepi
Bird nest, on the spool of wire in the machine, correct ? I've found the drag setting to be more critical, welding body panels.The fast zapping allows the wire spool to free wheel to easily. Creating a loose wire loop on the spool. Next zap will snap the loose loop and pop the spool, free wheeling it, making the loop of wire bigger.Very hard to put into words here. I've solved this, looking at the wire spool, giving the stinger quick triggers, adjusting the drag so as the wire loop on the spool does not get larger.
Reply:
Originally Posted by pepi
Bird nest, on the spool of wire in the machine, correct ? I've found the drag setting to be more critical, welding body panels.The fast zapping allows the wire spool to free wheel to easily. Creating a loose wire loop on the spool. Next zap will snap the loose loop and pop the spool, free wheeling it, making the loop of wire bigger.Very hard to put into words here. I've solved this, looking at the wire spool, giving the stinger quick triggers, adjusting the drag so as the wire loop on the spool does not get larger.
Reply:Was having much the same problem with my MM255. Was especially bad with .023 wire. The upper drive roller was ever so slightly off.Millermatic 255Dynasty 280 DXReady Welder IHypertherm 30XP
Originally Posted by Willie B
No, my bird nest is a snarl between feed rollers & liner.
Reply:That is one thing I was going to suggest. The inlet guide on the gun-side of the rollers should be merely a few thousandths away from the rollers. WillieB, can you go and actually measure the distance between inlet guide and the intersection point of the two rollers. If you can post a pic that would be great too.The other thing I was going to suggest. Can you un-do either the back-end or the front-end of the gun and actually measure the liner diameter? Maybe you did not get an actual 023-specific liner. Can you use the Oxy-Acet tip cleaners? (to see which is the largest that will go into the liner, without forcing it of course) We can compare results to my 023-specific liner.
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Reply:I dont like to run 024 due to the bird nesting, or maybe it just doesnt like me. But you have to have all 024 stuff to run 024. So contact tip, liner, drive rolls, and specially the guide tube. If your guide tubes and the inlet for the mig gun has a .060 hole in it, that is where it will start the bird nesting. Also, you need to put proper tension on the spool so, as mentioned before, it doesnt free spool while tacking. If you have run in adjustment, make it something like 50% if you have it low at 25%, 024 doesnt like to always transfer from soow to fast speed under an arc.Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
That is one thing I was going to suggest. The inlet guide on the gun-side of the rollers should be merely a few thousandths away from the rollers. WillieB, can you go and actually measure the distance between inlet guide and the intersection point of the two rollers. If you can post a pic that would be great too.The other thing I was going to suggest. Can you un-do either the back-end or the front-end of the gun and actually measure the liner diameter? Maybe you did not get an actual 023-specific liner. Can you use the Oxy-Acet tip cleaners? (to see which is the largest that will go into the liner, without forcing it of course) We can compare results to my 023-specific liner.
Reply:Like I've already said I don't understand why my MM175 has never had trouble feeding numerous 11 lb rolls of .023. It still has the liner that came with it. I tried the 1 lb roll of .035 flux core that came with it and it fed fine also.Ol' Stonebreaker "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:
Originally Posted by mla2ofus
Like I've already said I don't understand why my MM175 has never had trouble feeding numerous 11 lb rolls of .023. It still has the liner that came with it. I tried the 1 lb roll of .035 flux core that came with it and it fed fine also.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I measure actual liner diameter on the little Miller gun purchased for .023" wire as .056". They obviously want a bit of extra room, but how much extra, I don't know.All three guns are adjusted for welder end of the liner to clear the feed rollers by only thousandths of an inch.Lateral adjustment of rollers have been checked numerous times & adjusted slightly.The little gun has only Miller with logo on it. I may have saved the packaging it came in.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
My liner is a smidge smaller, about 0.047". Not all that different. Does the liner reach all the way to the back of the contact tip? if it happened to be cut short, that could also be a culprit.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I did what I shouldn't do, assumed it was set up specifically for .023.
Reply:Had I found the gun on a website I'd not have imagined it was set up specifically for .023. The fellow who sold it to me represented it as such. I made the mistake of trusting he knew what to order. I shouldn't have done that. I still wonder what I'd do with .045 in a 100 amp gun? Not exactly. Mine brings the spiral liner to the feed rollers.
An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
Had I found the gun on a website I'd not have imagined it was set up specifically for .023. The fellow who sold it to me represented it as such. I made the mistake of trusting he knew what to order. I shouldn't have done that. I still wonder what I'd do with .045 in a 100 amp gun? Not exactly. Mine brings the spiral liner to the feed rollers.
Reply:I apologize for my tardy response. Sundays the voices are most demanding. What the voices tell me to do seems always to take up 25 or more hours on Sunday. Voices are most active on Sunday.Here is my liner, fits a Miller M100 gun 15'.I didn't know graphite liners existed. In every other field there are lubricants to facilitate a pull (I'm an electrician). I can push 100' through straight conduit, but first bend will stop the push. I can pull 650' and up to 360 degrees of turn in theory. A bit of lube makes theory reality. Friday we had a surprise. A hyper funded private school suddenly needed 6 more runs of CAT6 200' long. 40' will be exposed where billionaires might notice. Sequestered decision makers couldn't be bothered to be there. The ##1 custodian, in charge of anything sequestered decision makers can't be bothered with decreed: "we will allow a 3/4" EMT conduit, nothing more.It is surprising what can be done. I practiced a straight run. Yes it worked if all cables could be parallel. When pulling in conduit we make every effort to keep conductors side by side. Conductors never cooperate! They cross.Friday, I was surprised to see it was often a question of pulling back a few feet, adding a bit of lube. We made it work! I hate working for rich people, but they do provide the challenges upon which I grow.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
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An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I didn't know graphite liners existed.
Reply:That explains why I haven't had much trouble with mine with the 10' lead.Ol' Stonebreaker "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
I first learned of carbon-graphite liners when I bought my first HTP MIG. They are what facilitate push-only aluminum welding using an otherwise standard MIG gun that they offer in 8-10 ft lengths. Teflon is also available; it is slicker than a steel liner, and my initial testing with a Teflon-liner I bought on EBay is when I discovered my little 200A MIGs could push solid & cored wired through an ~18ft Teflon liner. So if it could do it through a Teflon liner, it should be even easier through a carbon-graphite liner. Sure enough, the 20-foot MIG guns I ordered with carbon-graphite liners work great, even with a standard 1-drive/1-follower feeder. Not only is it even slicker than Teflon with a lower drag/coefficient of friction, I've found it is a harder material as well, so it would take just a little bit more to wear it out than Teflon. Trying to scratch them both with my fingernail, the Teflon starts to "catch" and fray easier than the carbon-graphite. The downside is that it is relatively expensive (compared to regular liners), but not so much that it is out of reach either. Thanks for the pic. I'll let you know what they say with regards to the machine end side of the liner for your machine. I just saw that your M100 is 15 feet long. That for sure isn't helping either; usually most places tell you to keep it to no more than 10ft for 023 wire no matter what.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I stand corrected. The Miller part # for .023 wire is 15' as shipped. This liner cut to length is actually 10' 5".
Reply:I agree with G-ManBart.023/024 wire will do good job. Try keep short cable on gun . This thin of wire will bird nest a lot on longer guns Dave
Originally Posted by PilotDan
Hey everyone,I have a millermatic 252 that I usually run .035 wire in. I'm going to weld in some lower door skins and what not onto my old plow truck (they're rusted out). I've got a fair amount of cutting and welding to do on this old truck and I'd like to set up the welder to do a decent job rather than just try to muddle through it. I'm going back and forth on a couple of options... Any advice on this would be really appreciated.Option #1: Put a spool of .030 in the welder and just use that. I'd only need to flip the drive rollers around and change out the tip to do this.Option #2: Put a spool of .024 in the welder. This looks like I'd need to buy and install new drive rollers, new liner, and new tips. Does this sound correct? I think this might be worth doing, but the parts add up to about a hundred bucks, plus the cost of the wire..Option #3: Figure out if I can run .024 in my spoolmatic 15a and just use that.I keep reading that this can be done ok with .030 wire, but .024 seams to be preferred. I've also read about using some esab easygrind wire or using a silicon bronze wire, but I have zero experience with these options. It seams like people use the silicon bronze wire with 100% argon (I do have a tank of this as well as a tank of c25).Thanks,Dan
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
This thin of wire will bird nest a lot on longer guns Dave
Reply:Maybe try some of the Lincoln Super Arc L-56 .025 MIG welding wire. I like it for thin wall(14-16ga) square tube and sheet metal (16-20ga). Never really had any problems (birdnesting) , but I'm using 10ft 100L gun when running this wire. Its the light duty gun that comes with the smaller lincoln mig welders. Its easy to change, light , parts are available cheap at Home depot. I'm sure there must be a Miller equivalent, a light duty mig gun that will fit(usually they're only 10ft )Good LuckAirco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square waveMiller Synchrowave 180 sdMiller Econo Twin HFLincoln 210 MPDayton 225 ac/dcVictor torchesSnap-On YA-212Lotos Cut60D
Reply:Most just use a spool gun for thin wire or use a short welding cable with the gun will do same job.Dave
Originally Posted by Oscar
What is just as important is that this thin of a wire will birds nest in a lot of longer guns in part due to the excessive clearances inside the "023 liner", which I feel is too over-sized, because it is generally made to accommodate 030 wire as well.Willie,Good news about the carbon graphite liner! Check PMs.
Reply:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
or use a short welding cable with the gun will do same job.Dave
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
Tell that to WillieB. I'm sure he would disagree
Reply:Willie, have you checked the alignment of the drive roll groove/carrier to the inlet of the liner?
Reply:
Originally Posted by vwguy3
Willie, have you checked the alignment of the drive roll groove/carrier to the inlet of the liner? |
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发表于 2021-9-1 23:15:57