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50 years ago all I had for welding was a Smith oxyacetylene torch and a Miller Thunderbolt A/C buzz box welder. I used the torch for welding sheet metal and the buzz box for everything thicker. For the arc welder, I used it almost exclusively in the flat position. I did very little out of position welding with it. During the summer I worked for my uncles asphalt paving company, so I actually did a fair amount of stick welding for repair, but again it was almost exclusively in the flat position. In recent years I have used MIG and TIG exclusively, with almost no stick welding. For out of position welding on thick plate I have used dual shield flux core wire. Now I have an application for a friend and customer, where I have to weld some brackets to some pylons out on a dock. It makes sense to use the stick weld process (SMAW). The brackets are zinc dichromate plated and the pylons are painted. The pylon are 8-1/2 in diameter tube with a 5/16 wall. The top plate of the brackets are 1/4 thick. The brackets have two vertical plates one is 1/2 and the other is 1/4. The following two pictures show the one bracket welded to a pylon. The required weld location is shown in purple.
The last two pictures shows the location of the brackets to be welded relative to the dock.
My plan is to first grind off the plating from the brackets and grind off the paint from the pylons in the area to be welded. I was planning on running the first pass with 6011 or 6010 rods for good penetration and to burn through any remaining contamination. The second pass I was planning on using 7018 rods. I have watched Jodys videos and have been practicing vertical up hill fillet welds on both 1/4 and 1/2 plates with both 1/8 and 5/32 6011 rods, but could use some help, from someone near Troy MI, who is proficient in vertical up hill welding with 6011 or 6010 rods. I would like them to watch me weld and give me pointers and show me on how to improve. -DonSmith Oxyacetylene TorchMiller Dynasty 200DXLincoln SP-250 MIG WelderClausing/Coldchester 15" Lathe16" DuAll Saw15" Drill Press7" x 9" Swivel Head Horizontal Band Saw20 Ton Arbor Press BridgeportLincoln LE 31 MP & Lincoln 210 MP
Reply:I'd just use 7018 and forget about 6010/6011, there's no advantage to them in this application.Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Reply:If it was me, I would run a root pass with 1/8 6010 (5P+) downhill, brush it, grind the high spots, then uphill 1/8 7018.
Reply:If you can't get it clean use 6011 or 10. Otherwise just 7018 3/32" would be easier on the verticals for someone starting out. Looks like plenty of surface area for weld so a single pass should be more than adequate.
Reply:A quick pass with 6010, downhill and a little hot, will do a great job of burning out any residual zinc, paint, etc. No reason to run it uphill, and definitely no reason to be using such large electrodes (you mentioned you've been practicing with 1/8" and 5/32").Quality Assurance Manager / CWI / NDT Level IICertified Welder-ASME-AWS
Reply:I have welded since 1969, but never had a lesson. I too went to extremes to weld in flat position many years. Biggest object I turned to weld the whole thing flat was a car hauler trailer. I probably looked silly with a home built A frame on an old truck hanging the trailer tongue up vertical to weld everything flat.Since the internet & buying a DC welder, I've done a bunch of vertical stick.Can't say why, overhead has never been all that challenging to me. Vertical is tight arc length, flux actually rubbing, horizontal rod angle, and a Z weave. Pause at each side. I agree 3/32 rod is best until you get the hang. Travis Field (Field Res) has done great videos on vertical up weave with 7018. You need a specific number of watts to do the job. It can be high volts, low amps, this gives liquid flow for a smooth weld laying flat.A vertical weld wants deep penetration, push it into the weld piece where it will not drip away. Early DC only Lincoln welders could set voltage & current. Newer welders you control voltage with arc length. A very close arc lowers voltage. raise the amperage setting to meet the need.6010 is fast freeze, deep penetrating. It is usually used to blast out contaminants remaining after grinding.7018 is more ductile, has a bit more tensile strength. If all is clean enough I'd favor 7018An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Unless that pylon is really old, and after you grind it clean and it is still pock marked, I wouldn't think you would need the 6010/6011 pass. I would use my Lincoln 210 MP with .035" dual shield, with a 5lb CO2 cylinder as a first choice, or 3/32" or 1/8" 7018 if I didn't have the wire and gas on hand. The 210 MP is very portable , runs both dualshield and 7018 well,and as an inverter the draw isn't that great. Will you have a 230V power source there, or are you going to use an engine drive, like a Bobcat, or Ranger ? Looks like an interesting job, will patiently await pictures, as you are practicing. https://www.weldingweb.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gifThanks for sharingRegardsAirco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square waveMiller Synchrowave 180 sdMiller Econo Twin HFLincoln 210 MPDayton 225 ac/dcVictor torchesSnap-On YA-212Lotos Cut60D
Reply:I would agree with cwby a hot pass with 6010 mostly to finish burning the plating off because no matter how much you grind you can’t get it all 1 hot pass with 6010 buff we’ll finish with 7018 I have done a lot of plated projects and if you go with straight 7018 as you weld all the residual plating comes out and you loose a lot of puddle control My 2 cents worth If you do get it welded without getting it clean you won’t be able to get the flux off very easy
Reply:
Originally Posted by Munkul
I'd just use 7018 and forget about 6010/6011, there's no advantage to them in this application.
Reply:
Originally Posted by cwby
If it was me, I would run a root pass with 1/8 6010 (5P+) downhill, brush it, grind the high spots, then uphill 1/8 7018.
Reply:
Originally Posted by M J D
If you can't get it clean use 6011 or 10.
Reply:
Originally Posted by WeldinFool
A quick pass with 6010, downhill and a little hot, will do a great job of burning out any residual zinc, paint, etc.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I have welded since 1969, but never had a lesson. I too went to extremes to weld in flat position many years. Biggest object I turned to weld the whole thing flat was a car hauler trailer. I probably looked silly with a home built A frame on an old truck hanging the trailer tongue up vertical to weld everything flat.Since the internet & buying a DC welder, I've done a bunch of vertical stick.Can't say why, overhead has never been all that challenging to me. Vertical is tight arc length, flux actually rubbing, horizontal rod angle, and a Z weave. Pause at each side. I agree 3/32 rod is best until you get the hang. Travis Field (Field Res) has done great videos on vertical up weave with 7018. You need a specific number of watts to do the job. It can be high volts, low amps, this gives liquid flow for a smooth weld laying flat.A vertical weld wants deep penetration, push it into the weld piece where it will not drip away. Early DC only Lincoln welders could set voltage & current. Newer welders you control voltage with arc length. A very close arc lowers voltage. raise the amperage setting to meet the need.6010 is fast freeze, deep penetrating. It is usually used to blast out contaminants remaining after grinding.7018 is more ductile, has a bit more tensile strength. If all is clean enough I'd favor 7018
Reply:
Originally Posted by albrightree
Unless that pylon is really old, and after you grind it clean and it is still pock marked, I wouldn't think you would need the 6010/6011 pass.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Leogl
I would agree with cwby a hot pass with 6010 mostly to finish burning the plating off because no matter how much you grind you cant get it all 1 hot pass with 6010 buff well finish with 7018 I have done a lot of plated projects and if you go with straight 7018 as you weld all the residual plating comes out and you loose a lot of puddle control My 2 cents worth If you do get it welded without getting it clean you wont be able to get the flux off very easy
Reply:Here is the status of my welding practice. I used both the 6011 and the 7018 for the first pass and I used both 1/4" and 1/2" plates because that is what I will encounter.1. One quarter inch plate 1st pass
2. One quarter inch plate 2nd pass
3. One half inch 1st Pass
4. One half inch 2nd Pass
-DonSmith Oxyacetylene TorchMiller Dynasty 200DXLincoln SP-250 MIG WelderClausing/Coldchester 15" Lathe16" DuAll Saw15" Drill Press7" x 9" Swivel Head Horizontal Band Saw20 Ton Arbor Press BridgeportLincoln LE 31 MP & Lincoln 210 MP
Reply:On Sunday I made a trip to Marks house to look at the boat hoist. I am sure that the pylons will be structural, but Pylon #2 is badly pitted. Mark suspects that the pipes used for the pylons werent new, when they were installed 30 years ago.8. Pylon 1 is in good shape
9. Pylon 2 is in worst shape
10. Another view of pylon 2
It turns out that the required welds are a little different than what I was practicing. I suggested grinding the entire end of the ½ vertical plate, so that I could put a ½ fillet weld on the end. It will probably take me two passes to fill up the end of the plate. Mark wants me to put a 2nd fillet weld on the back side, but I think that this would be overkill.11. Grind on end of 0.5 inch vertical plate
There was a 3/32 gap between the top plate and the pylon. I suggested adding a 45° bevel on the ID of the top plate. The strategy for attaching the top plate to the OD of the pylon would be to have a groove weld covered by a 2nd pass fillet weld.12. Top plate gap is .095 inch
Smith Oxyacetylene TorchMiller Dynasty 200DXLincoln SP-250 MIG WelderClausing/Coldchester 15" Lathe16" DuAll Saw15" Drill Press7" x 9" Swivel Head Horizontal Band Saw20 Ton Arbor Press BridgeportLincoln LE 31 MP & Lincoln 210 MP
Reply:I mocked up the weld to develop and verify the welding parameters. I used a whip and pause using 1/8 6011 rod, followed by a small U shaped weave using a 5/32 7018 rod for the 2nd pass.13. Bevel on top plate
14. Groove weld for 1st pass
15. Fillet weld for 2nd pass
In the following picture you can see that there is pretty good penetration on the weld. There is a little undercut on the top of the weld.16. Etch of weld
I directed the arc to favor the upper plate and hesitated a little on the top and eliminated the undercut. 17. Got rid of top undercut
Smith Oxyacetylene TorchMiller Dynasty 200DXLincoln SP-250 MIG WelderClausing/Coldchester 15" Lathe16" DuAll Saw15" Drill Press7" x 9" Swivel Head Horizontal Band Saw20 Ton Arbor Press BridgeportLincoln LE 31 MP & Lincoln 210 MP
Reply:I have done enough uphill welds that I find that they are getting easier.18. Vertical uphill welds are getting easier.
-DonSmith Oxyacetylene TorchMiller Dynasty 200DXLincoln SP-250 MIG WelderClausing/Coldchester 15" Lathe16" DuAll Saw15" Drill Press7" x 9" Swivel Head Horizontal Band Saw20 Ton Arbor Press BridgeportLincoln LE 31 MP & Lincoln 210 MP
Reply:Fillet welds are usually derated. You might enjoy this article. Page through it to see different load types, etc.https://weldinganswers.com/how-to-de...a-fillet-weld/I wouldn't have an issue with placing a fillet on the inside/backside. It might be a bit hard to get to, and possibly involve some strange arc blow, but it's worth the extra insurance. The bevel you're doing would alleviate quite a bit of any doubt, and make for easier access. I've done the same, where I can't place a weld on the backside because it would interfere with a design aspect of the assembly. A minimal land makes for an almost full pen weld, and works quite well.........while allowing you to hold dimensions accurately due to the land functioning as your fitup point.
Reply:I looked at your bevel again, and how you've tacked it with an open root. This really isn't necessary, and will make for some interesting shrinkage as the weld cools. Might pull it where you don't want it pulled. An approximately 1/8" land,, or slightly less, will hold dimensions as you weld, if it's just tacked up against the adjoining piece without an open root. Remember that you're filling the bevel, and also adding filler on top of the bevel to make the fillet. That's quite a bit of tensile strength once you add up all the passes..........
Reply:Looking at the bracket against the pylon, I think it would benefit from enough bevel to be able to handle the full width of the rod as it's aimed at the root of the weld. These type of welds, if trying to fill a narrow gap, can sometimes result in slag entrapment in the root. Things work better if the root is fully accessible when you run the weld. Full width of the rod diameter, plus a skosh. You'll be happy you did it this way.I don't see anything wrong with using 60xx for the root, but 7018 would work fine for root, and fill.
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
Fillet welds are usually derated. You might enjoy this article. Page through it to see different load types, etc.https://weldinganswers.com/how-to-de...a-fillet-weld/
Reply:I think your original practice bevels are probably the way to go, if you don't want to deal with the backside of the plate. Just leave yourself a land to do the fitup, and hold the dimensions. I'm thinking you'll do fine.
Reply:I use 7016 for almost everything. For a while I couldn't get any, now they order it in for me. That rod loves the uphill battle. It likes preheated metal and runs best on hot metal. It will run on straight polarity or reverse polarity. Sincerely, William McCormickIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.Here is a video of the 7016 rod being used.Sincerely, William McCormickIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply:
Originally Posted by William McCormick
Here is a video of the 7016 rod being used.
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
Looking at the bracket against the pylon, I think it would benefit from enough bevel to be able to handle the full width of the rod as it's aimed at the root of the weld. These type of welds, if trying to fill a narrow gap, can sometimes result in slag entrapment in the root. Things work better if the root is fully accessible when you run the weld. Full width of the rod diameter, plus a skosh. You'll be happy you did it this way.I don't see anything wrong with using 60xx for the root, but 7018 would work fine for root, and fill.
Reply:Didn't go through the whole thread but a tight angle like that is good application for a 6010 root pass to get max. penetration.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Welder Dave
Didn't go through the whole thread but a tight angle like that is good application for a 6010 root pass to get max. penetration. |
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发表于 2021-9-1 23:14:14