Advice? Welding thin metal to 1/2" sq. bar

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Good morning all,I wanted to see if any of you could offer me some advice.  I am trying to weld a thin ornamental piece of metal (1/16" thick maybe) to 1/2" square bar.  I am using a AC/DC 225/125 set on DC.  I have tried 35 watts - 65 watts DC with 7018 rods (1/8" and 3/32").  All with no success.The results are somewhere between burning completely through the ornamental metal piece (I am keeping the rod very close to avoid gouging) to not melting enough (weld easily pops off once it cools).A friend suggested that I set the welder aside and use a propane torch or soldering iron for attaching the ornamental pieces.Any suggestions would be most appreciated.
Reply:Heres what I tell you,  I had a lincoln ac/dc machine like yours.  I now have an industrial gas machine which has better arc characteristics...but 7018, unless its a 7018 AC rod, doesnt run well on your machine.  The AC version of this rod is designed for your type of machine.  Therefore, I recommend two rods.  6011 and 6013.  I would go with 3/32 6013 for thin and usually i stick to 1/8 6011 for the thick.  You should be able to weld this though wither either of the three rods I have mentioned,  7018 ac, 6011 or 6013 by following this simple rule.  Set your heat for the thick piece.  Make sure you can melt the thick,  start out your bead on the thicker piece and draw the puddle into your thin piece.  Dont stay long or youll burn yourself right out.  This isnt an easy task with a stick welder.  I would say the 6013 would be your easiest time doing this though.  If your good with a 6011 you might try it.  But to recap,  set your heat for thicker piece,  start on the thicker piece and pull your puddle to the thinner and get back to the thick.   Best to make shorter welds on this till you devolop your skill at it.  Good luck to you. CHRIS
Reply:Thanks Chris!
Reply:Chris covered the technique excellently. What I can throw in is perhaps the obvious - ensure that you've got a birds eye view of the weld that way you'll be able to spot when you're about to burn thro on the thin piece.Also perhaps making a series of tacks before fully welding may also do the trick.What I've also done in the past when welding very thin metal is to build the edge of the thinnest piece up so that it's a bit thicker and then weld it at full blast to the thicker one.What I seriously would consider especially if it is ornamental pieces we're talking about is to use brazing like your friend suggested.
Reply:SIR,on something like this, i would not wantto use a rod larger than 1/16" in 6013, and thenyou would have to be really good. i thinkthe other post was right on as to procedure. other than that, i think this would be a job for a tig welder, where you have a lot more control. good luck with your projects.wlbrown
Reply:Brown,  I read your post and although I know your heart is all in it, I do believe your severe lack of ability with arc welding is your biggest trouble.  1/16" rods are soo tiny, fact is I have never even seen one ever used.  I believe the main reason these rods are sold is for hobby welders who purchase a small welder for use off 115V.  These machines can hardly run bigger than a 1/16" rod.  As for the choice of rod, the 3/32" 6013 is preferred.  Although, I have on many ocassions used an 1/8" and have even used 6011 for this application when needed, though due to force of this arc its more difficult.  If you had the choice of process, I would not choose tig, but mig.  Tig is very slow, and very expensive for this application.  Wire on the other hand can quickly and easily tackle this application.  This is the process used for this role in professional shops and if a pro is doing it its likely there is a good reason, and worth following.  The key benefits to mig for this application is mig is good for thin stuff.   Mig is high production oriented.  Mig also can easily be done with one hand with a tad bit of experience.  This is helpful at times when you need that extra hand for holding a part, or a 1/2" rod to your 1 1/2" sq tube .062 wall thickness.   These are common material for gates and railings.  Tig is good for more difficult things to weld, or for things that need a very clean weld.  Infortunately tig is slow and expensive.  Not well suited for this sort of application.  Good luck to y'allCHRIS
Reply:TxRedneck pretty much gave you the process. All I could add is go with the 6013, be satisfied with short beads. By the time you see a dime sized orange glow on the 1/16th you're gonna have a hole right there. Let it cool a bit so you can clean the slag off for a restart. Check the flux on the end of the rod, make sure it's NOT hooding over the tip of the filler before you start again. You have to tap a little bit harder if it is and that can cause some surprise starts if you're not used to it. "Tap, tap, brrroppp"! Not good for finesse work.How about trade some work with someone who has a mig?? Always adds a little competive component to doing sork for each other.Last edited by Sandy; 05-06-2005 at 02:10 AM.
Reply:Right on Sandy,  you hit on something I neglect to even think of because of how long Ive been burning rod.  6011 is good about not leaving much flux on the rod, or slag on the weld, but most of the other popular rods do.  7018 I feel is one of the most notrious rods for this, then its the one I use most though too.  That "hood" will cause you to smack the rod hard and often this will lend to you sticking the rod and breaking too much rod off and it looks like a circumsized *****.  When that happens youve got to long arc it a second or two longer till the arc stablilizes, and for a newer welder with 7018 this can be a challenge.  Point, although 7018 is worse with this, Sandy is right and this is a problem even for 6013.  Some folks I know will break the end off by tapping it on a hard non grounded surface.  For instance a concrete floor.  When you are several hundred feet up and only hard surface is the metal your all grounded to, so you just break it off with your glove.  I just suggest watch your glove so there's no holes in your thumb or finger to burn your finger.  Good luck, although this is  a luittle off topic I think its still good input and hope it helps.CHRIS
Reply:TEXREDNECK,  the way i read your answer to me is my lack of ability to arcweld. i have done a lot of welding with 1/16" rod, and i am stillgood at it. i was making a suggestion to the person that madethe original post, who was asking for help.wlbrown
Reply:hehe  this fella really makes me laugh.  Not to sound like an A-hole, which I suppose I am, but you have done a lot of welding wtih 1/16" rod and youre still good at it?   You know the more you do the better you should be.  You shouldn't get worse with it because you do more.   That just seems counter productive.  And as for the person asking the question they dont need counter productive suggestions either.  Unless they really need 1/16" due to machine lack of amperage they should stick to something a tad bigger.  It will cost them less, take a lot less time, and actually because it deposits more metal tends to help with them less than perfect fit ups.  Oh and did I mention it makes a better weld because the heat is great enough to fuse the material they are welding on.  I know its just a suggestion but its my bread and butter and I know what I'm saying here.  Goes for hobbiest just as much as contractors.Good luck y'allCHRIS
Reply:I think when TXRedNex mentioned lack of welding experience, he was addressing me, and indeed, he is correct.  I wound up using a 1/8" 6013 at 40 amps.  I got a snot bubble pooled up on the 1/2" square bar and then pushed it into the ornamental piece.  This worked pretty good all the way around the piece.  As predicted, I did have two small blow throughs, but all in all, the project turned out well.  I will post pictures once I figure out what color to paint.  Thanks all for sharing your expertise.
Reply:D...I mean no insult, but you poor bugger.  If it looks like a snot bubble, and were talking about 6013 here, chances are youre too cold.  In this particular case I can definately assure you that it was too cold, 40 amps too low for 1/8 6013.  For starts try 3/32, and then even at that go with a higher amp setting.   I am right as we speak looking at the Lincoln technical data on welding rods.  The 6013 made by lincoln has amp settings for 1/16th all the way up to 3/16".   The 1/16th says 20-45 amps,  5/64 says 45-75, 3/32 70-95, 1/8 100-135, 5/32 145-180.  As it goes, its best not to take these numbers too seriously, but they are a good refernce.  Differnt makes will refer differnt amperage figures, but in general they are usually roughly the same.  Therefore if you stick to the basic range of numbers it will help you.  For instance your running 3/32 6013 youre told 70-95 amps.  You may find on a particular application you re burning holes in the metal at 70 amps.  You might try running 65 or even 60 amps.  This is acceptable providing you are getting fusion.  But if you start out with the numbers it will help till you establish experience with roughly where to set a machine to start for a rod.  Also, when you weld the thicker bar to the thinner tube, start outo n the bar, get your puddle, wave it onto the tube for about a second or two and get out of there.  The seconds have to do with making sure you fuse but dont blow a hole.  Good luck to you.  CHRIS
Reply:Originally Posted by d38710Good morning all,I wanted to see if any of you could offer me some advice.  I am trying to weld a thin ornamental piece of metal (1/16" thick maybe) to 1/2" square bar.  I am using a AC/DC 225/125 set on DC.  I have tried 35 watts - 65 watts DC with 7018 rods (1/8" and 3/32").  All with no success.The results are somewhere between burning completely through the ornamental metal piece (I am keeping the rod very close to avoid gouging) to not melting enough (weld easily pops off once it cools).A friend suggested that I set the welder aside and use a propane torch or soldering iron for attaching the ornamental pieces.Any suggestions would be most appreciated.