Welding Black Pipe

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Can this stuff be mig welded?   How about stick welded?     I have a project for this weekend that requires two 5' lengths of 1/2" round bar.    I'd rather not spend the dollars at Lowes (if that length is even available) and since I only need 2" or so at each end to fit in 1/2" bushings, I'm thinking about using cheap 1/2" ID black pipe (the stuff gas lines are plumbed with) and welding short stubs of 1/2" round bar in each end.    I've never welded on this stuff before.   Would the galvanized pipe work better?   If I can use my stick welder (Lincoln 225AC), any suggestions about amps or rod?ThanksThere are no small projects
Reply:Grind off the coating, or use some HCacid.  Adrian from Metal Illness is building a buggy out of that stuff.Owner of Welding Wiki,The free wiki based resource for weldor's around the world.http://www.weldingwiki.comWe have cookies!
Reply:I've welded black pipe with my little wirefeed, it's not too bad, but the steel is really low grade.  One thing you will notice is that if you have your heat turned up to the standard for that thickness of normal steel, you will burn through right away.  I would probably use the MIG if I were you, and turn the heat down by about half of what you normally would for steel of that thickness.  Other than that, the stuff takes a weld pretty well and will hold strong. Ohh, and I didn't have to grind or sand off the coating when using my wirefeed, it just welded straight through it with no problems.  I did however use a respirator mask since I wasn't sure what kind of gases, etc... the coating would release.
Reply:1/8" 6011?I'm sure you can get decent penetration with your arc welder, that thing will weld rusty bridge plate if you crank it up a bit.
Reply:YEah ive been weldin black pipe forever.  If im putting fluid through it, I grind it.  If not or no air as is sometimes used,   I just weld it as is.  For something this thin, I would recomend wire.  Although Ive sticked it,  its not gonna be easy.  Your better off with wire.  The respirator is a good idea as this stuff isnt good to breathe.  One word of advice...if it smells bad...its prolly bad for your lungs...as silly as this sounds its truth.   Respirators dont do a lot, but they are better than noithingIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:that 1/8" 6011 gonna be too hot for that size pipe...if yo9u used stick,  if your handy wiht it 3/32 6011.  OTherwise 3/32 6013but the ac isnt gonna run as good as the dc, so again wire is better for this jobIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Thanks for the quick replies.   I just realized I don't have any Ar/CO2 mix and the weld shop I usually go to for refills is closed on weekends.   I'm only set up to MIG aluminum until Monday.    I think I'll set up my (as of yet not out of the box) Lincoln Pro-Mig 175 for flux core and make a stab at it.    I've not used my 225AC yet.   It was an old (1976) freebie and I have to put a new electrode holder and ground clamp on it.  It came with an unlabled collection of rods.   Maybe I'll try that too.    Thanks again.There are no small projects
Reply:that flux will run better IMO than the solid wire,  better than the stick,  but.....it will run hotter than the solid wire.   Be easy with itIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Imagineer I too got an ac-225 that was very old and something else u may wanna check is the power cable on mine the outer jacket looked great but come to find out that the individual wires in side were dry roted and cracked giving the potential to short out. to check it flex the cord real good and if it sounds like it is cracking replace the wire.http://www.wefabricateit.com
Reply:Thanks onewyr, I'll do that 1st.   BTW, my plans for the project got put on hold for a bit.  Mainly because neither 1/2" black pipe or 1/2" EMT conduit are even close to 1/2" ID.    I'll have to scrounge around the plant to see if there is any suitable pipe.    If not, I have to shim it to center the 1/2" round bar in the oversized pipe.      The other reason for the delay was while cruising the tool clearance area at Lowes, I stumbled on a Kobalt 4 drawer tool cabinet that had been dropped from such a height as to rack it badly out of shape.    None of the drawers would budge.   They had a sticker on it, "$20 as is".   Being the arrogant and cheap SOB that I am (who thinks he can fix anything), I had to snatch it up and spent most of Sunday banging, bending, clamping and stretching the case back into shape.   So for $20 and an afternoon of noise making, I got me a nifty $180 rolling tool cabinet.There are no small projects
Reply:Originally Posted by imagineer   So for $20 and an afternoon of noise making, I got me a nifty $180 rolling tool cabinet.
Reply:I didn't have the fore-thought to take any before pictures, but these show some of what had to be repaired.     The cross corner measurements on the front were different by over 3".   The dimensions on the left side were off by more than 1".     As best I can tell, it was dropped on the left rear corner.     The vertical frame member on the front left was buckled outward in the middle.      I started by putting a heavy bar clamp across the top left and lower right corners to squeeze it back to square, but it was causing more damage as pressure was applied.      Instead, I made a quick set of "V" blocks from wood 2x4's and used a hydraulic floor jack to expand the distance from the lower left to top right corners.     While it was still under pressure from the jack, I applied the bar clamp to unbuckle the left side frame and across the left side corners to bring it into square.      I also did any hammer and dolly work before I removed the jack.   All total, it took about 4 hours including lunch.   I should add that all the dust you see is from cutting scrap oak for firewood later that day.   Man, do I need to build a dust collector! Attached ImagesThere are no small projects
Reply:Impressive!   Thats a NICE box for $20.
Reply:thats awesome.  Your not cheap either,  youre financially enlightened IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:That's not cheap, that's frugal.  There's a big difference.  Someone that's cheap spends as little money as possible.  Someone that's frugal spends as little money as is necessary to accomplish the task at hand.Now you have a new toolbox without all that annoying shiny new toolbox look.  That'd definitely be worth $20 and a few hours to me.-Heath
Reply:Originally Posted by wintermuteI've welded black pipe with my little wirefeed, it's not too bad, but the steel is really low grade.
Reply:Originally Posted by JTMcC"really low grade", is that a technical term? Tell us, what grade was it? Your run of the mill A53 grade B is roughtly equivelent to plain old mild steel (A36). Pipe is made of hundreds of things, but 99% of what hobby welders will run into is going to be A53. It really is no help to anybody to post dumb comments like that.JTMcC.
Reply:keenavv,Don't worry, I won't...he doesn't deserve it.
Reply:New box, already broken in! You can't beat that!
Reply:Originally Posted by TEKNew box, already broken in! You can't beat that!
Reply:Originally Posted by TEKNew box, already broken in! You can't beat that!
Reply:Originally Posted by wintermutekeenavv,Don't worry, I won't...he doesn't deserve it.
Reply:once again, still doesn't deserve it...
Reply:Frugal, now theres a Scottish saying.........
Reply:I agree with JT.  Its irritating at best.   Black pipe means very little to the avg welder as that could mean a lot.   As a pipefitter's apprenctice I had to do some plumbing work and we were installing waste pipe.  Yeah its black...no you cant weld it.  Ive seen pipe that was black that was real easy to weld, Ive seen pipe that used to be black and dint weld for nothing.  Lots of contamenants.   It all depends on the pipe you get.  The A53 can run real smooth.  Ive also gotten hold of old drill stem...  im a texas boy what can I say.  Sometimes it welds fine.  Othertimes it dont.  So I find that making open ended statements about welding is a very bad idea.  Its like the english language, tehre are always exceptions.  To this end its very difficult to make general statements about anyting regarding welding unless you plan on being proven wrong.  Its just too many differnt variables.  Just my own two centsIF it Catches...Let it Burnokay, so people want to know what low grade means.  Let's first say what A53 means.  A53 is a designator for the ATSM specification for a particular grade of pipe.  Most black pipe is shown as ATSM A53 Type E Grade B.  The Type E means that the pipe is electric-resistance welded.  That isn't really all that pertinent to the grade of steel used.  The Grade B means that the steel meets certain minimum requirements for contaminents such as Magnese, Aluminum, Carbon, etc... as well as the casting method that is used to create the steel for the pipe.  Due to the fact that black pipe can have a high content of variant base metals in it, the pipe may have an extremely low melting point, high or low reaction to electric arc, high or low corrosion properties, etc...  This does not mean that all black pipe is low grade steel, just that most of the stuff you buy at a home center such as lowes or home depot will be.  Some manufacturers produce ASTM A53 Type E Grade B pipe that actually equates to being Grade A which means a much lower level of contaminents in the steel as well as better casting methods.  Ohh, and the "black" portion of black pipe means that the pipe is hot dipped in a black enamel in order to meet a minimum environmental resistance requirement.  I felt it was not necessary to put all of this in my initial post due to the fact that black pipe commonly contains a variable number of contaminents and has a lower melting temperature and a much higher reaction to an electric arc.  Due to the fact that the specification does not control exact contaminents (only percentages of overall contaminents) you cannot give a specific welding reaction for this material.  For folk like JTMcC; if you knew this, you wouldn't have asked what low grade means since it really is immaterial to this particular metal.
Reply:hey win,  i wont speak for JT, even though i prolly could.....but uh he prollys a lot more about welding and particularly pipe.   Either way I admire you for doing your homework, but Im sure if youre looking for a pissing contest youre looking in the wrong place.  As far as the percentages go of contaminaents and all, I agree on the part of the percentages.  But from the perspective these percentages are so very small of everything else I dissagree with your assesment.  Again I aint looking for a pissing contest but if youre looking for one I think youve met your match...just my two centsIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Tx, I don't doubt that JT knows alot more about welding than I do, as do you which I know for a fact.  I'm an amateur when it comes to welding (very amateur in fact).  In relation to that pipe though, I do know quite a bit about it.  The percentage of contaminents allowed in "black pipe" is actually quite high (about 11 percent) obviously some is lower and some higher though.  An 11 percent contaminent level in any steel can have severe effects on the electrical and thermal properties of the pipe.  I don't know exactly what this means in relation to different welding processes because as I have said, I am amateur.  I have however welded this pipe a few times, and I have noticed that it tends to burn through much quicker than the regular steel I normally work with.  On the other hand, I feel that this entire tangential conversation is really an unecessary argument.  I was trying to provide some value to the intial poster, but since that attempt at assistance obviously isn't appreciated, then I would request that the original poster please ignore my intially provided advice.
Reply:Wintermute,  the fact is that theres a lot of text book and metallurgy and so on oout there.  A lot of it is true, but in how it affects you really isnt.  Its easy to make assumptions, but guys like JT and I have had experince in the field and theres a lot more to understanding pipe than just the metallurgy.  If you want to do metallurgical tests, thats fine. But welding the pipe is not quite the same.   You will be surprised.  Theres a lot more diffence in class of welding machiens than there is in these pipes youre talking about.  This makes a huge differnce. But furthermore, a metallurgist may know about metal, but that dont mean he can understasnd how its gonna actually weld.  Youd be surprised how many young metallurgists and engineers end up learning from their welders.  I understand what you were trying to do,  but JT is experienced enough that whether he knows the metallurgy or not,   he can tell ya a lot more about practical application than any text book will ever hope to.   Good luckLast edited by TxRedneck; 01-11-2006 at 12:38 AM.IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Tx, I said that you and JT both know a huge amount more about welding than I do...not the other way around.
Reply:my apologies....I got that edited after I noticed my errorIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Originally Posted by TxRedneck...Youd be surprised how many young metallurgists and engineers end up learning from their welders
Reply:Winter,  I know JT,  hes not a troll.  I understand where hes coming from.  He isnt a **** or anything like that.  He sees a lot of things posted day in and day out and its false or misleading becasue of the lack of surrounding information.  Its just one of them things.  It also makes a big differnce that a guy like JT does very critical work.  There are still a lot of jokers who go around flappin their jaws.  After a while, even though youd expect governing bodies and the such could keep folks like this out, they find there way in.  This is in the field.  Get on these forums,   oh thats just a nightmare.  Its like teh blind leading the blind.  Comments are sometimes made, and most times the guys are good about explaining themselves.  But sometimes they blow off a lil steam cause there tired, frustrated and it may not be right but the best of us do it.  Heck Ive done it.  I gues I was doing it before till I noticed I misread your post.   Its just what it is.  One big thing I find utterly frustrating....how many guys who are hobbyiiest or self taught shadetree and they will build a trailer, or a trailer hitch ona  car, or do many other things.  Maybe there just building a wrought iron fence and they dont have enough class to purchse a machine that can give them power.   IN some of these cases the welder is doing things that his machine is not really capable of, and things break hurting or killing people.  In other cases, they are just driving the wage for welders down cause they using inferior tools and inferior methods to build inferior products and service and there will always be some looser who will pay it cause they dont want to pay a real welder to do it.  Then nobody gets the service, or they hire a good welder to come out and fix what the first guy screwed up.   Its annoying and these forums infortuatnly add to this problem to a degree, if not a large one.   Im just ranting but I know its true and it causes a lot of frustration and annoyance for those who are trying to make a decent life out of what once was a noble and skilled trade...and now is being degraded as much as possible just so big business can have all the green in their pockets.IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Tx, if ever there was a post that should be engraved in stone and stickied to the forum walls, its that one. Im one of the self taught and there was a point in time that my cocky young male self  thought he knew all there was to know about fab work and welding. Ive grudgingly accepted the fact that that just isnt true.   ...and never will be. Intelligent people learn to learn from those more experienced. Whether we like it or not, theres always someone out there that knows a bit more than we do. Accept it. Learn from them. Admire what they have accomplished. Strive to be a little more savy as a reward.
Reply:Cracker,Absolutely true.  I agree with Tx thoroughly on that last post.  I have seen the same thing in my current industry and it drives me batty too.  It's one of the reasons I won't weld anything critical or that can hurt someone (and anyone else with my skill level or even a hell of a lot higher, but not as good as Tx or JT shouldn't do anything like that either).Ohh, and just to specify, I really do respect both JT and Tx.  Their input to this forum is invaluable and without it, I don't think that even a quarter of the questions on this board would get answered properly.
Reply:I think thats a compliment.. hehe  thanks....I tend to be a lil arrogant and outright tacky at times.  I sometimes am a lil bullheaded.  But I have learned that the older experienced hands know a lot more then college will teach.  Not in all instances.  The best engineer, metallurgist, welder, inspector will have a combination of experience both as a welder and in their own field because they will know the how, the why and the how practical the why and the how can end up being.  Its always been funny to be you can have an engineer come up with the best laid plans, and it won work. They tend to make tolerances too tight and not account for imperfections.  They tend to iss alot too. Get measurements wrong.  Or just generally screw up cause they dont engineer it for welding.  An engineer with welding experience would have realized that it wouldnt work from the start.  Some of these guys they learn quick to listen to their welders.   Others dont.  Those who dont usually dont last long though.  Anyway,  Ive learned a lot from some really uneducated guys.  The college is good, but it only goes so far and if it hinders you from accepting others knowledge and taking what they have learned...it wasnt worth a flip.IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Originally Posted by TxRedneck*SNIP*...... if it hinders you from accepting others knowledge and taking what they have learned...it wasnt worth a flip.
Reply:Well thanks   I do try my best to do things the right way, and to help guys out.  Its really hard to come on to the internet and teach someone anything.  I dont think its really possible.  I think you can give people guidance and give them pointers.   If they can figure it out thats great.  If not, well you know.  But my only biggest regret would be if someone listened to something I ever said and a child was hurt or killed.  I of course wouldnt be happy for anything to happen for a parent or an old lady or man.  But to know I might have caused a childs injury,  its something I fear,  both on the forum and in my occupation.  I grew up with a farm.   We had welding done out there.   We never owned a single trailer that was manufactured type.  Always just some good ole boy.  Some were good welders,  pipe welders who were tired of the road. Others were though just hobby welders.  They made some pretty lousy stuff.  Ive also spent some time traveling and Ive seen accidents happen.  It aint pretty. Anywa its late....yall have a good one   and thanks for the compliments IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:sleep well, friend."I need this parade like I need a hole in the head"~John F.Kennedy
Reply:Wow guys, i didn't know pipe could cause such a controversy. I just cut it, weld it, bend it, machine it, thread it, fill it with lead and whack grumpy little trolls with it!  No, just smarting off..... good points from all...I agree that the usefulness of many of these opinions, need to be considered with thought , and applied with caution. I've been wrong before, and will be again. I'm sure someone will point it out, and I will learn from it.I  feel it is the ultimate responsibility of the fabricator, to ensure that his project is safe for the intended purpose.We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:BB, that last sentence could have come from a bunch of us on here. The Hobart board has a thread re: quality work. where a guy walked from a good job 'cuz of crappy work he would not do. I respect that.
Reply:The life you save..... may be your own.We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:I love a good pissing contest, so I'm going to jump in here with some facts:Chemical Requirements, maximumsA53 Grade A 0.25C 0.95Mn 0.05P 0.045S 0.00Si 0.40Cu 0.40Ni 0.40Cr 0.15Mo 0.08VA53 Grade B 0.30C 1.20MN 0.05P 0.045S 0.00Si 0.40Cu 0.40Ni 0.40Cr 0.15Mo 0.08VA36  Shapes 0.26C 0.00Mn 0.04P 0.050S 0.40Si 0.20Cu 0.00Ni 0.00Cr 0.00Mo 0.00VA53 Grade A 30Ksi Yield 48Ksi TensileA53 Grade B 35Ksi Yield 60Ksi TensileA36 36Ksi Yield 58-80Ksi TensileFrom what I can tell, A53 is pretty specific with regards to chemical composition.  I also wouldn't refer to ~3% alloying elements as "impurities" and it's certainly not 11%.  A36 chemistry varies depending on application.What was the argument, anyway?-Heath
Reply:Ok that did, I gotta piss too... ya'll dragged me in too.Halbritt, i dont have my books here at home, but A36 = .26C....Le'me see.... 1018 = .18C...low carbon steel                  1045 = .45c.... med carbon steel                  1095 = .95C... high carbon steel... really high carbonShouldn't a36, AKA-"mild steel", be a little lower                                   than .26C....   maybe .026C  oh yea, I think the argument was "knowitalls" claiming they were knowitalls, and others claiming that they don't know they were knowitalls knowing that they wern't knowitalls.     ok... I think i know i'm not all knowing about the carbon thing!We need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.
Reply:the helll with the whole carbon thing...who needs the shi*t anyway!   I wish we could live in a carbonless world!  NO more carbon paper, no more carbon monoxide, no more carbon dating, NO MORE CARBON!IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Sheesh, I feel like I have to toss a bucket of water at you guys to break it up. I do appreciate the emotion and enthusiasm put forth to make sure the correct information is posted, but man, it's only for a couple of pivot arms to make the top of my home made aluminum tool chest rise up level and even.     My choices are either 1/2" black pipe or 1/2" rigid EMT.    My concern over black pipe stemmed from watching a 5' piece shatter like a fluorescent tube when I accidentally dropped it off a 6' high storage rack.    If I can't find 1/2 solid round bar "frugally" priced, I'll probably use the EMT because it's lighter.Thanks again for all, and I mean all, the info.BTW, the wife won her pitch for possesion of the Kobalt cabinet.   I gave the measurements of the cabinet to the wife so she can pickup upholstery fabric to recover it after I'm done beating it into submission.Is that even legal, covering a tool cabinet with a floral print?There are no small projects
Reply:Its legal, but not recommended IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:no carbon= no pretty girls
Reply:Originally Posted by TEKno carbon= no pretty girls
Reply:Tx... that would mean no more carbonated beverages...IE: BEER!   Watch what you wish for!    carbon ... good mmmmmWe need to protect Freedom of Speech, otherwise, how would we know who the A-holes (like me) are.