Hi:)

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I'm new here I did some reading though this forum, some, and still figure out what to get. I dont have any experience with welding at all but I do learn quick. Anyways,... I want something to weld aluminum 1/16 - 1/8" thick. I am making aluminum parts for custom computer so the welds have to look good, nice and neat, tiny as possible. I be welding small pieces together to make smal parts and I'll be doing as much as welding tube frames together, welding small sheets together to form racks, whatever. Aluminum is the only metal I will be working with. Like I said no heavy production work just alot of fine precise work. I was told the TIG was the way to go with aluminum, is this right? Whats up with stick welding? What do you guyz reccommend? TIG welders are expensive as **** and stick welders and cheap as ****. If spending the money is what I have to do to do it right then so be it but I would like to find the best machine for the job at the best price, you know? Thanks in advance!
Reply:Stick is out.  Aluminum SMAW is basically for immediate repairs when no other methods are available.  You never go that route on purpose.You could probably get away with GMAW, with a Millermatic 210 and a Spoolmate 3035, but it'll take lots of practice to get good at the 1/16".  Would probably be an acceptable machine for the money at about $1850 for the package: http://store.cyberweld.com/mil210witspo.htmlThat'll also buy you a non-Miller/Lincoln inverter TIG also, since you need one with AC output.In non-inverter (cheaper but heavier) machines, a Miller Econotig COULD do it, but you'd be much happier with a squarewave machine and it's not much more to get a Syncrowave 200: http://store.cyberweld.com/milsyn180sd2.html"nice and neat, tiny as possible" really says GTAW, though.  I'd get the Syncrowave 200 if I were in your shoes.  In fact, it's cheaper for the base machine than the Millermatic 210/Spoolgun package and the runner package with wheels and stuff ain't much more than the base model.
Reply:Thanks MAC! I'll look into that. If Ihave any other questions, I'll ask
Reply:Hey what kind of input power does it need? Do I just plug it into a wall socket? Does it need to be run off of a 220volt circuit breaker? Thats what I was told. It weighs 238lbs? Lordy. Thats heavy as ****, lol.
Reply:I suggest that you look at the Thermal Arc Pro-Wave 185TSW, about $1850. You will also need an argon gas sylinder, about $125, auto-darkening helmet ($ 50-300) TIG gloves, and tungsten electrodes--PLUS a learning curve, the latter which I have been working on at local community college, and still need a lot of practice on aluminum.  I haven't even started on stainless steel, yet.Some references:         http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/gtawbook.pdf         http://www.millerwelds.com/education/TIGhandbook/         http://www.thefabricator.com/Printer...icle.cfm?ID=56          http://www.thefabricator.com/Printer...cle.cfm?ID=686                      http://www.thefabricator.com/Printer...icle.cfm?ID=56         http://www.thefabricator.com/Printer...cle.cfm?ID=527
Reply:Originally Posted by tribaloverkillHey what kind of input power does it need? Do I just plug it into a wall socket? Does it need to be run off of a 220volt circuit breaker? Thats what I was told. It weighs 238lbs? Lordy. Thats heavy as ****, lol.
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702For the Syncrowave 200, you'd want a NEMA 6-50R receptacle, fed with #6 wire from a 240V 2-pole breaker.The only feasible way to do that job from 120V is with a Miller Dynasty 200, or equivalent, about $2600.
Reply:Sail2u,... thanks for the links. Very cool stuff! I cant wait to get started! I just need to figure out what to get for where I'll be doing this. I have to call the guy up thats renting this place out and ask him about power. I looked at all the different machines and I dont understand what type of input power is need for each model whatever. I mean it says 1-phase and 3-phase. I googled that and didnt find much info on what those mean other then what can be powered off of it. The specs dont say what type of outlet or power is needed or it does and I just dont know what im looking at. I'm going to keep reading about this,... I just feel very lost in this. Numbers and terms being thrown around but nothing really explained.
Reply:tribaloverkill, I'm afraid that you are setting yourself up for a big disappointment if you expect to make attractive, tiny welds on aluminum shortly after buying some welding equipment.  I admire your ambition and enthusiasm, but there is a learning curve associated with developing the skill to make attractive welds suitable for commercial products requiring eye appeal.I don't claim to be a TIG expert, 'though I have taken some course work and thoroughly enjoyed it.  I'd strongly recommend that you take a TIG course at your local vocational school or community college and farm out the commercial TIG work until you develop the necessary skill and knowledge.  I think that would be a better investment up front if you are going to be dependent upon selling your products soon.  Additionally, some welding supply houses have discount arrangements for students in local welding schools.  Another advantage of the school approach is that in some schools you will be able to try out various machine families (inverter vs transformer) and models to help you decide which type to invest in.To be blunt, your questions, while quite apropos, indicate that you need some exposure to the technology and practical experience before you can expect to make appropriate equipment choices and make attractive welds.  At the very least, spending some time reading books on the topic will help a lot.Good luck.awright
Reply:I do agree with you no doubt. Maybe I will take a class down the road, maybe not. I am a quick learner, I learn best hands on. I have to reant this place very soon and all I really want to know as of right now is if this place only has 115v sckets is there anything that will run on that and work very well. I do not plan on selling any of my stuff atleast not in the way your thinking. I would like to get a machine and get to work on it right away. The more time I spend doing the faster I will learn. I will keep reading up on this but I need to know right now if there are any TIG's that will run off of 115v household sockets?Just talked to the guy renting this place and he said he would talk to the electriain about upgrading the voltage to 220 - 230 whatever it is.Last edited by tribaloverkill; 05-26-2006 at 11:47 AM.
Reply:To comment on your question about electrical supplies in the space you are renting or will rent.    You really need to cover that in the lease before signing.    They may install for you or let you have installed the correct supply, you just can't assume that will happen.As to inverter machines, yes some can feasailby run on low voltage / low current input (110 volt ourlet).   The problem is your output current will be limited.    You might be able to get away with it, with Aluminum of the size mentioned, but Aluminum requires a lot of heat and I honestly doubt the results.    So I would not reccomend or even consider 110 volts for production welding of this sort.The bigger issue as has already been pointed out, is that aluminum is no where as easy to weld as clean mild steel.    You could realistically have yourself up to speed TIG welding steel with the fabrication of one or two cabinets.    Do not expect that to happen with Aluminum going into this with no welding experience.As to business development I hope you realize that you will need more than a welder to make this enterprice economical.Dave
Reply:Originally Posted by wizardTo comment on your question about electrical supplies in the space you are renting or will rent.    You really need to cover that in the lease before signing.    They may install for you or let you have installed the correct supply, you just can't assume that will happen.As to inverter machines, yes some can feasailby run on low voltage / low current input (110 volt ourlet).   The problem is your output current will be limited.    You might be able to get away with it, with Aluminum of the size mentioned, but Aluminum requires a lot of heat and I honestly doubt the results.    So I would not reccomend or even consider 110 volts for production welding of this sort.The bigger issue as has already been pointed out, is that aluminum is no where as easy to weld as clean mild steel.    You could realistically have yourself up to speed TIG welding steel with the fabrication of one or two cabinets.    Do not expect that to happen with Aluminum going into this with no welding experience.As to business development I hope you realize that you will need more than a welder to make this enterprice economical.Dave
Reply:tribaloverkill, I can assure you there is no one out here trying to shoot you down.  You are communicating with a bunch of guys with an enormuous cumulative amount of experience who are probably the biggest enthusiasts and boosters of all forms of welding and it's applications.  That's why they spend time on this forum.You are also communicating with many guys who have all sorts of experience in addition to welding, experience that may not always show in discussions of electrodes, machine size and power input.  Business, accounting, science, engineering, farming, manufacturing, etc.  When guys make comments and recommendations and make cautionary remarks, they are drawing on that experience, contributing their valuable time in thinking about your questions and drafting responses, hoping to provide you with assistance.One skill that is not well represented in the forum membership is mind-reading.  We read between the lines and try to figure out where a poster is coming from and what level of experience he has.  We don't always get it right.  It makes sense to assume less, not more experience than may appear on the surface of queries, because if you assume more knowledge, you can leave someone in the dust, completely baffled by the response and giving up or having to come back for clarification.  If you assume less experience, at worst you waste some words and reinforce something already known.  A responder assuming less experience is being cautious and thorough, not insulting.  That's why I think your comment, "What makes you think I wouldnt make sure he would do it (install 220 volt outlets) before I sign?" is an inappropriate response to someone trying to assist you based upon limited knowledge of your experience level.One of my areas of experience is drafting leases, as I have been renting out commercial and residential properties for several decades.  It took a long time and some painful experiences to learn how many pitfalls there are in drafting leases, especially for commercial spaces.  I am also always amazed at how naive and disinterested many people are in what they are committing to in a lease.  So when I, and I assume others, comment on how to approach your lease, it is in an effort to help you avoid disappointment and pitfalls.One thing I prohibit in my leases is any welding by the tenant unless I am presented with a schedule and a scope of work and the tenant has provided appropriate safety measures and equipment and uses professional welders.  This after discovering a new tenant welding up a storm in the middle of the night on the ground floor of an apartment building with no safety equipment and no notice to me.  I presume you have disclosed exactly what welding you intend to do to your prospective landlord.  That should NOT be just verbal disclosure, but should be included in your lease so he can't come back with an objection later.  Routine welding in his space may well affect his insurance, so you want him to know exactly what you are intending to do.  If you have fully disclosed and he has not objected, he can't come back later with objections or extra charges for insurance.  Don't be insulted that I bring this up.  I am being cautious.The 230 volt wiring is so minor a detail that it should not be an impediment, but should be included in the lease.  Unless his main panel for the space is way below standard, there should not be any major problem or major cost associated with providing you with a 230 volt receptacle.  Be sure to check the panel for available amperage and for space for your 230 volt dual breaker.Check with the manufacturer for the type of receptacle required for the welder you are intending to buy.  It will probably be a NEMA 6-50, which should handle almost any welder in the class that you would be considering.Good luck.awright
Reply:Thanks! I'm just going to tell him that I need to be able to weld anytime within a 24 hour day, 7 days a week, for however I want. My schedule is crazy. I cant say when I'll be able to get there to work and I can't say how long I'll be there working. I'll tell him that I will take all the necessary safety measures to prevent any unfortunate from happening. I'll have a fire extinguisher, a special table in a special area with no flamables. I told him I'll be using a propane torch for soldering, bending aluminum, etc. He said ok. Two of the guyz I talked to said ok. But I'll make sure he puts it in writing. he said he was going to talk to the electrician so we'll see what happens when he calls after the weekend.
Reply:Ok. So I have my eye on the Miller dynasty 200DX ac/dc tig welder. Should I get a watercooled torch or an air cooled torch? I plan on welding mostly aluminum. Im thinking I can get by with air cooled but water cooled would be a better idea?
Reply:I talked to guy renting out the suite and he said he talked to the electrician and he said that the place has 208v 3-phase power. That would run a tig welder just fine right? The outlets are the household style. Could I install a household style plug to a tig welder? Would it be safe?
Reply:You can use the household (NEMA 5-15) receptacles only if you are powering the welder from one of the 120V single-phases, which will work (assuming you get the Miller Dynasty 200,) but be a waste.  If the place has 208V 3-phase power available, it should be easy to run a full 3-phase receptacle to where your welder will be stationed.  The welder will love it and you'll get maximum capacity and duty cycle from it.For 1/16" to 1/8", a gas-cooled torch is fine.  But do make sure of its duty cycle at the amperage you are running.
Reply:Sounds like you've found a shop like the one I've leased and started setting up my shop in.  It was a brand new building with 2000 sqft warehouse/shop spaces in it.  Came with a small bathroom and almost zero wiring.  They had one 208v 30amp outlet at the back next to the panel along with one 115v outlet, one more 115v outlet at the front of the shop, and then the overhead lights and bathroom wired - that's it.  I have been running conduit and pulling wires ever since!  The funniest part was the first night I started wiring and had forgotten to get a conduit bender.  The funny part of that was this shop is centered around tube bending and I had already moved in a mandrel tube bender capable of bending up to 6"OD x 3/16" wall tube!  I ended up using a small bend die about the right size clamped to a table to bend the conduit till I remembered to pick up a bender next time at home depot.Anyway, just because your landlord says the shop has 208volt 3 phase service doesn't mean they necessarily wired in any outlets for you.  These units normally don't have any wiring since each renter's need will be different.  Your best bet is to find an electrician who will wire up what you need where you need it.  Electrical isn't cheap, btw - just in conduit, wire, receptacles, etc I already have spent close to $1000 - and I'm not done!  I still need to put in a few 50amp welding outlets since I've just been running my welders off one outle at the box and a long extension cord for now.BTW - the 208v versus 230 threw me for a loop at first.  One of my obscure brand welders had no documentation on how to switch it over from 230 to 208 and it refused to work till I did figure it out...
Reply:Also keep in mind that you can have 208V single-phase as well as 208V 3-phase receptacles with that set-up, depending on your needs.  The Dynasty will work from either.
Reply:OMG! Thanks for your help guyz!!! So yea this guy said the units have one receptical in each room that is 208v 3-phase. What amperage would that most likely be? What wold be good for an ac/dc tig? I think I read that somewhere? I would want them to install a receptical just for the tig becuse I have other stuff I need to power in that space too. It's funny you mentioned a tubing bender,... I will be bending alot of tubing in this shop too Alot of aluminum fabrication. I'll post pics when everything is up and running. You guyz can critique my work Any electrical work will be paid for by my sponsor or now, business partner. I'm not paying for a thing. Thanks again guyz! I'm goingto post pics as soon as I get this up and running
Reply:Originally Posted by tribaloverkill... this guy said the units have one receptical in each room that is 208v 3-phase. What amperage would that most likely be? What wold be good for an ac/dc tig? ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MAC702The most common 208V 3-phase receptacle that I see is a 30A, but I do also see 50A ones often.  You'll have to look at it.  The Dynasty will work perfectly from all of them, just use a matching plug or adapter.  If its a 20A, though, then you'll not have top output capability.
Reply:Ok,... it's time! I have to choose. I am thinking no more then $3500 for everything. As you all know I need an inverter unit because they are smaller and lighter and they run nicely off of 208v input power. I need a unit that supports 3-phase input power too. Inverter unit have a alot of nice features too. Now,... I did a search for inverter ac/dc tig welders and I didnt find much?!?! I wanted to present this company with a list of possibilites but there really isnt all that much to list. It's seems that Miller is it atleast in my price range. I saw some others but there was something wrong with each and every one of them,... alot required 1-phase power, some of them cost just as much as the Miller, and some were to cheap. I just don't think I can trust a really cheap unit. So I guess the Miller Dynasty 200 DX AC/DC TIG is it I went to ebay and did a search and there are alot of them and they include:CONTRACTORS KIT(195055) WITH TORCH, REGULATOR AND HOSE, FINGERTIP  AMPERAGE CONTROL, STARTER CONSUMABLES KIT AND GROUND CLAMP WITH CABLE, ELECTRODE HOLDER AND CABLE  AND CARRYING CASEAll that for $3077 with free shipping and no tax seeing I'm not in state. Thats pretty good right? I know I still need gas, more consumables, a helmet, gloves, and whatelse do you think I need? About the helmet,... whats the deal with that? I mean theres like $250+ dollar  with auto darkening lens and then there are like 60 dollar helmets without all the fancy stuff. Is there a huge difference? Is it worth it to go for the more expensive? What about gas cylinders,... I can rent those right? How does that work by day or until it's empty or what? Should I just buy my own? Anything else I need? I got consumables down, just want to make sure I am not leaving anything major out you know? Thanks guyz! I cant wait to give this a go!
Reply:The only people that can answer your gas cylinder questions are the local suppliers.  The industry is completely different in nearly every part of the country.  Don't ask why; none of us know.  Generally, the bigger the cylinder, the cheaper the gas per cubic foot (and fewer trips to exchange/fill.)  I own every one of my cylinders, and I have a lot.  It's just a principal to me, and I have nothing to keep track of.The Miller Dynasty (when affordable) is hands-down the king of the inverters.  eBay is definitely the place to shop for them, too.If you are WELDING FOR A LIVING, or even as a hobby but do it a lot, there is NO SUBSTITUTE for the highest quality hood you can find.  We are talking about the thing that is sitting on your head for every single weld you make.  Weight, clarity, transmission percentages, and longevity are all factors that make the top brands more expensive, and absolutely worth it.I don't even know the price point of the helmet I just won from this forum, but I will give it a full written review after a few weeks of putting it through the paces.  Stay tuned.As it sits now, I've welded with my Jackson EQC Executive (pre-NexGen), my Miller Big Window Elite, as well as my step-dad's Jackson NexGen, and a buddy's Optrel Satelite.  ALL were top-notch lenses, just have different features.  My PERSONAL preference so far is definitely the Miller BWE.  ($219 online when I got it.)
Reply:Thanks Mac So yea,...  I figured you would say that considering there are so MANY expensive helmets, you just beat beat having a good one So,... I will have to just call around for gas/renting bottles. Ok then, I think I have everything I need to get this rolling I post back my results and look out for your review