To go to school or to not go to school?

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I am looking for advice, criticism, or what you would do. The basic question I have is this is job experience more important than a piece of paper saying that you gradated from a welding school?Here is my situation. I have spent 2 years in a local welding school. Basically the school teaches SMAW plate and pipe, GMAW plate, and GTAW pipe. But here is the kicker we only learn to weld on carbon steel! We do not learn to weld on any type of aluminum, stainless, crom-molly, etc. We also do not learn to do any Oxy/Fuel welding. To graduate this program will take me another 3 to 4 semesters. When I finish the program all I get is a piece of paper saying that I have finished a course that was based on AWS standards. They are not set up to do any testing or to certify anyone. What most people that go to the school do is go for a semester to practice before they go and take a certification test to work wherever. Basically I feel like am paying the school to borrow a welder and use their material.Learning to weld is only part of what I want to do. I also would like to learn to do machine work, metal shaping, and learn to use some type of engineering software like CAD or Solidworks.   For the last 6 months I have been going to school part time and working part time. I am working for a company that 90% of the welding that they do is on 6061 aluminum. The other 10% is on mild steel. The methods they use most are GMAW-P and GTAW-P. I have learned more in the past 6 months working part time then I have being in school for a year. I would say that 50% of the time at work I am welding and the other 50% I am fabricating which is more of what I want to do anyway. In the last 6 months I have become proficient in mig welding aluminum but still need a lot of practice tig welding aluminum. The people I work with have anywhere form 5 to 20 years of welding under their belts. They are very willing to help and to tech me. I think that is invaluable when it comes to my learning.Ok, sorry for being so long but if you where in my shoes/boots what would you do? Is a piece of paper more important then two years of experience? Should I finish school or should I quit school and go to work fulltime?I thank all who comments or gives advice! This board and the people on here have been extremely helpful!My PicturesLA 4x4 Forum
Reply:School is always a good thing but never as good as on the job training.  I never went to a welding school, I started at a small welding shop in town and learned a lot there then moved on to better things.  If the tuition or hours aren't a big factor I'd stick with the school since you've already got time in.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:You seem to be sitting in the perfect location from my view.  Stick with it and not only will you have aluminum experience but also the steel welding and theory to go with it.  The piece of paper is extremely valuable for getting in the door  of a new employer.  On your resume you can claim all sorts of things about your aluminum expereince but it won't get you in the door past the suits.   Once you are in and you display all the other skills you have picked up on the side that is when you become someone they don't want to let go of.   I hope you also are scouting out the lay of the land.  When you see people coming through upgrading for tests often they are already working.  It is a good idea to make casual conversation with others so that you can learn just how good or bad certain employers are.  As you mentioned that you are doing some fabricating it would be wise after your welding course to take some sort of fitting program.  if you can read prints and layout material you are going to make a lot more than the guy on the end of the gun.  When lay off time comes... and it always does, are they going to lay off the guy who can only weld or the guy who can fabricate and weld????
Reply:This does sound like a frustrating situation for you, with work being more satisfying than school currently is.  In my opinion, you should stick it out with school, get everything you can out of the school program, it may not seem like much compared to the variety you are seeing at work, but the school certificate/degree will open doors and really pay off in the long run.There was very little that I liked about school, it was difficult to see how bone head English would help me with welding, or what in the world I would ever use calculus for.  Somehow I've gotten through 8 years of school beyond high school, accumulated an AS, BS, and MS, and for me it's paid off with plenty of opportunities to be creative, play with electron beam and the latest pulsed welders, study arc and weld pool phenomena, apply some metallurgy to solving real production problems, work with some really smart people, and make some good $.
Reply:Snap, ...... I know it doesn't seem like it now, but in the sense of the word, at this point you've kinda got the best of both worlds. What I'm saying is that right now you're learning things, at work, that aren't being taught in school and you're learning things, at school, that aren't being taught at work.I know you want to get out there and set the world on fire, just like I did when I was your age (22) and just learning to weld, but with time, it'll all DOES come together, SO DON"T RUSH IT. Right now the MAIN thing is to get all the knowledge you can. Work experience only comes with on the job training and YOU'RE GOING to get your fair share of experience.After 39 years of welding and 10 years as a welding and apprenticeship instructor, I have seen many changes in the welding industry and it keeps changing all the time, so it's impossible to learn it all. I know I don't and will be the first to say so. Just learn what you can and be D**N good at what you learn. THAT'S WHAT REALLY COUNTS. I might add that if, for some reason, you think that you're not receiving everything that should be offered, at the school you're now enrolled in, you might want to look into checking out a better school to attend. There's many schools that offer a well rounded program in all aspects of welding, so this might be what you want. From what you've said it sounds like the present school has a limited program operation. These small programs are nice, for the beginner, but very limited.I hope that this has helped, in some way, with your future plans.Last edited by Diverbill45; 12-13-2006 at 04:03 PM.
Reply:SnapI think the question is not School or work but which school and where to work.It sounds like you have a really good work situation and the school side of things is more limited than you would like.Ideal would be a more rounded school program and continuing at your present job as long as your learning a lot on the job.  However, the day will come when your going to need to change jobs.  The education will make that process a lot easier.
Reply:Snap stick with the school.  The other guys are right you need it to get past the suits. I happen to be a suit (not a welder by trade) and no-one sits on the other side of my desk looking for a job that doesn't have a sheepskin to hang on the wall. My degree is not even in the field that I work but that didn't matter, I needed the degree to get the interview.  Stick it out (no pun intended) once you have the paper your at least 1 step ahead of the guy who doesn't especially since you're getting welding and fabrication experience.  Sounds to me like you're putting together a good package deal for some future employer.
Reply:Hey snap, My humble thoughts on education, an opinion, formed from over three decades of curios study and frank talk with 100’s of people about 100’s of situations regarding the strange phenomena of:Spectacular success despite great adversity, and lack of special opportunity or formal education. VSNot so spectacular success despite great advantage, ample opportunity and formal education. You can’t beat education. Nobody will argue that. But there are lots of alternative and real world sources of education. For example the skill honing classes offered by suppliers and manufacturers. Reading is the gateway to much of this learning. Get an appetite for reading, it’s probably more important than any other skill you could acquire.There are plenty of schools that are simply in business to collect tuition and associated fees. They are not teaching truly viable, or, marketable skills and their true motive is profit, pure and simple. Like glamorizing lion taming and turning out 100’s of lion tamers, in a community with one lion act. Meanwhile, burying students with loan debt that will be difficult to repay, even for the top students, with the maximum earning potential. These assembly line schools miss the punch line.The education question that needs to be answered is this; What do you want? Really want; desire with such a passion that you would rather do that than almost anything else. Something that you want to know inside and out. You’d do it for free and still hunger for more.Have the answer? …Well your lucky, some never find it!Now, there’s old Joe, he’s living your dream and making good money doing it. He’s a leader in the field, working at an advanced level. But he can’t do it all, and he can’t do it forever. He’s looking desperately for you. And to Joe, do you know what matters the least about you?  Your skill. Your skill level today, matters the least to him. Hard to believe isn’t it? You know what he cares the most about? Your passion for the field. Your desire and drive. Your ability and willingness to keep learning and growing while staying committed to an undertaking. Your integrity. Your determination. How could it be? Well the leader knows that technology marches on and  methods go obsolete fairly quickly. Old dogs are routinely taught the latest tricks, if you will. But core desires and personal traits are impossible to implant.Back to education. So you take the initiative and go to school to become a welder of all things. But the school starts you off with boring  basics, an older method, for instance, hammering together hot steel. You stick with it. You have a good attendance record. You pass with good grades. But you wonder what it was all about.Guess what? It was all a test - That’s what it was all about. A test to see if you posses the basic interest, desires and qualities it takes to make it in the field. This is the punch line that some assembly line schools miss. You passed the test, now education can start, you have such a passion for welding that in addition to learning at school, you take initiatives to further your education of the industry. You read trade journals, you become knowledgeable of the latest trends and advances, you associate with weldors (okay, that may be pushing it!) you continue to learn on your own. You may even get a job working in the welding field!Now this hasn’t been easy, but you like it so much that it has been, and still is, enjoyable. You have made yourself into a rare and sought after commodity, school helped, but you did it.Now the tough part. Remember old Joe? You two have to find each other somehow.Since you’re  in the circle, he may here about you, your talents, your projects and your passion. Once he meets you he’ll probably recognize your rarity immediately. Joe may not have an opportunity for you right now, but he didn’t get where he is by being stupid or selfish. He wants to see you go. If he can’t help you, he’ll tell his buddy John about you. From a situation like this, your career and accomplishments can go further than 20 years of school could ever take you.The real education choices to be made are; to find your passion, pursue it, and make yourself available to, and capable of managing the opportunities that you seek. Being willing to ask for the advice and criticism of those who have traveled the road you contemplate is a sign of mature forward thinking. Your education is well under way.Good LuckPs- NEVER let oil come in contact with oxygen!Last edited by denrep; 12-13-2006 at 11:58 PM.
Reply:Thanks for all the great pieces of advice! Yes, I am in a very frustrating situation that I have thought long and hard about. Most likely I have thought about it too long.Unfortunately money is a factor. I have been paying for school out of pocket. So working seems really nice. Part of my frustration is going to school for 4 hrs and then going to work for 4 hrs a day. I feel like I am moving along at a snails pace compared to the full time students. With working 20hrs a week I am making next to nothing. (I am not a big spender and I don’t waist money). But it is hard to pay what little bills I have only working 20hrs a week. The other school in my area I just don’t think I could afford it. With me be very money conscience I am very reluctant to take out any loans especially school loans because they are the only loans that the bank will not forgive. You have to pay them in full.    At school I don’t feel like I am getting what I paid for. I really like my teacher and enjoy talking to him but I just am not getting the instruction that I want. Part of this is do to one teacher with too many students. My teacher also is not very engaging. There is another school in my area that I know of. One of the guys I work with went there for a little while. I have spoken to him about that school and I have voiced some of my frustrations with my school to him. He has told me that their program is more complete then where I am. In other words they are learning to weld on more then just steel. But the school is twice as expensive as where I am going. He also said that most of the teachers are there just for a pay check. After hearing that I feel my alternative doesn’t seem much better.I think my ultimate problem is I want to learn to do so much more then just welding that I am getting impatient… I want to do everything form the engineering/design work to the machining, fabrication, welding, and mechanic work too.You are right “denrep” I need to find something that will make me come alive and do that! Not ruling out welding of course.I will try and remember to update ya’ll. Thanks again! Still advice and criticism are welcome. My PicturesLA 4x4 Forum
Reply:School is where you go to learn the basics of the trade..... you learn the theory behind what it is you are doing. You learn how to choose the correct electrode best suited for the jobs at hand.... basic operation of equipment ie. set-up, safe use and handling.   Believe it or not there are a lot of "welders" who can't dial in a machine, or have any idea of how to read the apperance of a bead or arc performance to know if the machine may be set incorrectly, hot... cold..... junky electordes.... they just keep burning.   You learn the differences between different processes ie, short circuit, globular, spray.... pulsed. You get to practice in a controled environment and not on a job for an employer.    Personally I feel that school is a great advantage for you in the long run. I went to school part-time as well, and worked full-time. When I had my company, school would be a huge factor in decieding between candidates of equal experience.   Yeah you may feel that you're getting more out of being at work than at school and you probably are. At work you are taking the basic principles you learned at school about how to weld and you are now learning how to apply that to your job. This is why you feel you are learning more at work, because at work you are learning from people who have hands on experience at their trade and they are helping by sharing that expreience with you.     As far as testing.... I wouldn't think may schools would offer to certify their students.... I would think there would be a conflict of interest in doing that.     If you don't feel the teachers are engaging enough engage them.... they're there to teach you. That's why you're there...... stick with it. Knowledge is power...
Reply:Go with school. It seems that you have plenty of experience with mild steel. Find a night school thay offers the skills you lack. All the diplomas in the world don't mean a thing if you cant pass the test.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrep[I]You can’t beat education. Nobody will argue that. But there are lots of alternative and real world sources of education. For example the skill honing classes offered by suppliers and manufacturers. Reading is the gateway to much of this learning. Get an appetite for reading, it’s probably more important than any other skill you could acquire.
Reply:Snap stay in school,  you won't regret it years from now.  Four hours a day is fairly easy.  I personally had to work eight hours a day, and go to school four hours a night.  Then got stuck with the overtime on weekends.  With three little ones at home there was not  much choice, if you wanted that piece of paper.  I'm retired now,  but would do it over if necessary.  Let us know when you graduate.Being "over the hill" is much better than being under it!
Reply:UPDATE……I have made my decision to go to work full time for the spring semester. The plan is to save up money to start back welding school in the summer full time! I feel that going back to school full time is the best thing. I don’t want to do the school half a day and then work half a day deal that I did last semester. While in school I will most likely end up working nights waiting tables or delivering pizza. What ever I need to do to get school done.I am also learning a lot at work and am doing more and more. I just got a new spool gun put on my machine and it is welding awesome. I will try and remember to take some pictures of what I am doing. It is some cool stuff. It might be a while before I can take pictures though.Again thanks everyone!My PicturesLA 4x4 Forum
Reply:Originally Posted by SnapB75UPDATE……Again thanks everyone!
Reply:I never went to school.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:see if they have an industrial maintenance program, here is a link and the classes it teaches. maintenance they don't teach welding, but sounds like you already have that. i graduated the course and am getting my bachelors starting this week, 2 more years.this course will teach you how to do all the stuff lorenzo and zap do. plus electronics and hydraulics among other things. most of my classes now are in the managerial and cost analysis stuff along with predictive maintenance."Retreat hell, were just fighting in the other direction"Miller Trailblazer 302, Extreme 12 VS, Dimension 400, Spectrum 375, HF 251D-1, Milermatic 251 w/ spoolgun  Hypertherm 1000Lincoln sp 1702000 F-450 to haul it
Reply:Question--- School versus on the job experience. Its not as simple as it sounds. Going to school is historically the correct way to go. It is both educational and socially accepted way of advancing in our society. The negative side is time and money or money and time, which ever you like. You can learn an immense amount of knowledge doing this. And time is not kind to someone who is lazy,unskilled and indecisive. So going to school is pretty much the route a prudent person would take. Now we have the other side of this coin---- If you are extremely talented and gifted in an extraordinary way you may decide to forego the educational route and forge on, with your skills guiding you. It seems that the skills ( manual dexterity and that soft hand touch) are something which one can not really greatly intensify. You either have hands and touch or you don't!!!!! You DO NOT LEARN TOUCH IN SCHOOL---- YOU ARE BORN WITH IT---its a gift from someone!!!! A diploma may get you to see the man in the dark suit and even temporarily open the door but as soon as he needs to produce  (with skill ) he might not be able to compete with a very talented individual.  After all its the talent they are after not the sheep skin!! So you must decide what is correct for you. You stated that you have learnt a lot--- maybe yes and maybe no  ---- ITS YOUR LIFE !!! peter
Reply:Stay in school. People who hire dont normally care if you are an accountant an engineer, or what ever. They Care that you are disiplined enough to stay in school and finish what you started. They also care that you are trainable. You either have hands and touch or you don't!!!!! You DO NOT LEARN TOUCH IN SCHOOL---- YOU ARE BORN WITH IT---its a gift from someone!!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by SnapB75UPDATE……I have made my decision to go to work full time for the spring semester. The plan is to save up money to start back welding school in the summer full time! I feel that going back to school full time is the best thing. I don’t want to do the school half a day and then work half a day deal that I did last semester. While in school I will most likely end up working nights waiting tables or delivering pizza. What ever I need to do to get school done.I am also learning a lot at work and am doing more and more. I just got a new spool gun put on my machine and it is welding awesome. I will try and remember to take some pictures of what I am doing. It is some cool stuff. It might be a while before I can take pictures though.Again thanks everyone!
Reply:nobody ever saves up money and follows through with a plan like that.  i can't tell you how many times i've heard "i'm working to save up money and then i'm going to...."  especially after having been broke for so long, you're first inclination will be to spend, if you are anything like anyone else here it will probably be on tools, if it is tools you're screwed.  if you want to do anything, most often you have to take a drastic action and just do it.  sign up for the other school and find a way to pay for it later.  this will force you to become creative in searching for funding.  it is way too easy to slip into a comfortable situation and keep putting off the things you intend to do one of these days.    just my two cents
Reply:Originally Posted by rusty ripplenobody ever saves up money and follows through with a plan like that.  i can't tell you how many times i've heard "i'm working to save up money and then i'm going to...."  especially after having been broke for so long, you're first inclination will be to spend, if you are anything like anyone else here it will probably be on tools, if it is tools you're screwed.  if you want to do anything, most often you have to take a drastic action and just do it.  sign up for the other school and find a way to pay for it later.  this will force you to become creative in searching for funding.  it is way too easy to slip into a comfortable situation and keep putting off the things you intend to do one of these days.    just my two cents